a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

[Gunrunner]

I'm planning on starting a new Fantasy Hero campaign soon, and I was toying with the idea of having CSL's, Skill Levels, and skills increase in character point cost as their values increase. Sort of a ramping cost, if you will. My idea for CSL's was this:

 

Characters cannot start off with more than X Combat Skill Levels. Additional CSL's after character creation cost normal amount plus the number of current levels you have in character points divided by 2 (round up). Improving CSL's is still the normal cost in character points. Example: If your character has 4 3-pt CSL's and no 5-pt CSL's, then to buy another 3-pt CSL will cost (3+2) character points. A 5-level CSL will cost (5+2) character points. To change one of the 3-pt CSL's to a 5-pt CSL will cost only 2 character points.

 

I would also do something similar for skills and skill levels.

 

One reason I was thinking of doing this was because I don't want characters to become over-specialized in one area and to give them more incentive to diversify their characters and spend experience points in other facits. I believe that it is better to be skilled in many weapons or styles rather than really good with one weapon or style. A real-life warriors learns how to use several different weapons for different situations.

 

Another reason for doing this is to create a mechanic that represents the fact that it becomes harder and harder to improve a skill the better you become with it.

 

I have a bad feeling that if I don't do this, than some warrior-like characters won't spend their experience points on anything but Combat Skill Levels with one type of weapon. I know that some of you might say something like "talk to your players and let them know how you feel about this", but ultimately it's their decision on how they want to spend their experience points. I also know that some of you might probably tell me to put more emphasis and importance on skills that aren't combat-related, but I want to keep the campaign action-oriented with the option of using non-combat skills to achieve objectives. So therefore, I'm afraid that taking emphasis off of combat will change the flavor of the game entirely, which is something I don't want to do. There are many other RPG's that have mechanisms (although some unfortunately at the cost of flexability) that similarly make it harder to improve on skills as they get better with them, so perhaps this isn't such a bad idea.

 

My question to you all who are more experienced GMs than I: Have you ever experienced a similar problem? And if you did, how did you handle it? Is there another way to keep a campaign with lots of combat-action as well as colorful, multi-dimensional player-characters? Can I have the best of both worlds?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

Keith Curtis in his Savage Earth campaign has Normal Characteristics Maxima affect CSL's. If you go above 20 points in CSL, it costs double for every point there after. You could do something like that.

[Gunrunner]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

Hmmm, I have considered this before and wanted something more level-dependent. However, I'm sure this would work and it is much simpler. Maybe I'll set a NCM after 10 CSL's for x2 the cost, and again at 15 for x3 the cost. I can tell that Keith is probably a very good GM, so if a NCM for CSL's works for him then I'm sure it will work for me. Thanks for the suggestion, Squirrel

[LordGhee]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

in one of my fantasy games i did something simular, to buy the next combat level you need to have one of the higher. so you need a 3,5 to buy a 2nd 3 and an 8 to buy 2nd 5 so you could buy that 3rd 3.

 

But life and reacting taught me a little different.

 

people like doing what they are good at and are successful with.

 

i seen fighter get very good with sword and shield and never pick up a spear for example.

 

one reason you train youth in different things is to make them try something defferent to see if they are good at it.

 

A lot of adults will not try newthings unless forced to, I got really good with a bow one year when my back was hurt.

 

in kung fu movies the hero dose not learn anything until he is beaten up, then the the training begins.

 

so now I will allow what the rules allow, I do not generally allow 2pt and 1pt levels.

 

charaters that I play normally are very compentent over all ( I generally use 2 or more overall levels).

 

some of my friends never use them.

 

Hero is varied go with it.

[Markdoc]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

What you could do is adapt the idea of "normal skill maxima" to be based off how many points a character has.

 

So (for example) you could say that no-one can have a skill higher than total points/10 and no OCV can be higher than points/15 (giving you a max of 15- and OCV10: these are just examples, rather than hard and fast suggestions - you could use points/12 or whatever).

 

That would let you cap levels and such but allow room to grow as the game progressed.

 

There's two problems, that I can foresee immediately. Players may well whine or try to get around the rules in other other ways (for example, by maxing out on SPD and Damage and buying Stat.s instead of levels) - or they'll do both those things.

 

The second problem is that everyone will look much the same. If you cap OCV at 10, expect everyone to have OCV 10. If you cap SPD at 4, expect everyone to have SPD4. I get the feeling that's not exactly what you are after.

 

My solution - if you want to have a combat-oriented game but don't want stratospheric combat skills, is a dramatic and seldom-used one.

 

Start them on less points.

 

Once game starts, it is easy enough to get characters to spend points on other things: languages, AK, TF, cool fighting tricks. A character who starts with 150 points almost always starts with higher combat-relevant stat.s than one that starts with 100 and earns his way up to 150. And he usually has less points on "ancilliary stuff".

 

Secondly, spice your combat up with more than just "Whack the pinata". Mr "I bought 10 2-point levels with longsword" will deeply consider your suggestion that he should broaden out after someone catches his weapon in a swordbreaker, snaps it in half and then plays kidney-massage with their armoured fists. Or after 20 archers feather him as he runs across the courtyard. Or after he has to *sneak* into the castle before he can righteously maim someone. Or when the critical fight takes place in the rafters of the great hall, where the ability to jump and keep your balance is as important as raw OCV.

 

Third - do the same for everyone. Even if the game is combat oriented, blind-fighting looks like a good deal after someone dumps a waggonload of flour into the warehouse and kicks the snot out of the whole group because they can't see. Danger-sense seems like a good buy if the opponents du jour make a habit of attacking by surprise. Trapfinding and climbing (and swimming) are all ways to soak points if the environments you dump your players into are dangerous. Combat-riding is a necessity if they have to fight mounted, while ship-handling is useful if they have to do it on water. Stealth and concealment can be crucial while interrogation might be useful.

 

*Don't* go out of your way to punish them - simply put them in situations where the players WANT to have other abilities than raw OCV or raw damage. I tend to give my players hints.

 

"To reach Ondean, you have to cross the Sea of Grass. It'll take you weeks on foot, but without combat riding, you're going to look like meat targets in the saddle..."

 

"If you try and cross the forest of Roncevalles without any survival skills, bandits will be the least of your problems - you'll starve to death before you get out..."

 

And if they persist, well fast-riding bandits who rain them with arrows and flee hand to hand combat with opponents on foot, or letting them starve in the forest until they are so weak they have to abandon their gear to keep moving, will encourage them to think smarter.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

Hmmm' date=' I have considered this before and wanted something more level-dependent. However, I'm sure this would work and it is much simpler. Maybe I'll set a NCM after 10 CSL's for x2 the cost, and again at 15 for x3 the cost. I can tell that Keith is probably a very good GM, so if a NCM for CSL's works for him then I'm sure it will work for me. Thanks for the suggestion, Squirrel [/quote']

 

If you want characters to spread their skill levels out amongst various abilities, I suggest you make the CSL "Maximum" 5 CSL's.

 

Make that 5 CSL's per attack type. Thus you could buy up to 5 3pt CSL's that apply to Swords without paying double. You could also buy up to 5 3pt CSL's that apply to any other weapon, as long as they don't apply to Swords. 5pt Hand to Hand levels don't count against this maximum, though you can only ever get 5 Hand to Hand levels without paying double for more (same for Ranged, same for Mental combat) 8pt CSL's also don't stack with this, but one can only buy 5 8pt Combat skill levels before doubling.

 

The end result looks like this:

 

You have a character who wants to be really good with the Sword.

 

He can buy 5 3pt CSL's with Swords for 15 points. After this CSL's with the Sword cost 6pts. Thus he opts to buy 5 5pt CSL's with Hand to Hand Combat for 25 more points, which not only allows him to be better with the sword, but also skilled with many other weapons as well. Later on, the player wishes to improve his characters combat abilities more, but additional Hand to Hand CSL's will cost 10pts each, thus he opts to buy 5 more 8pt CSL's with All Combat for 40pts. Any additional skill levels with all combat cost 16pts apiece, which is probably too expensive to bother with at this point (besides the character now has 15 CSL's to use with the sword and 10 to use with any other melee weapon...more than enough in my campaigns...almost too much, in fact)

 

That should work to quasi-force the players to spread the love so to speak.

[Outsider]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

In my old campaign I limited people to 2 CSLs of a given type that applied to a particular attack before they had to pay double. Every 2 levels, the cost redoubled. The theory was that you really couldnt get that much better with a weapon before getting a bit better with similar weapons. So, for example, after 2 OCV levels with Longsword, it was hard to get better with the Longsword without actually getting a bit better with all swords. After 2 All Sword levels, it was hard to get better with just swords without getting a bit better with other melee weapons. While I didnt do it at the time, it woudnt be unreasonable to limit the doubling thing to just 2 and 3 point levels. Getting a -lot- better at all melee doesnt necessarily require that the person get a bit better at all ranged. Doing it this way would mean that a person should never be more than 6 levels better with a particular melee or ranged weapon that he is with any other particular melee or ranged weapon.

 

So the cheapest level progression (original system) :

 

2x OCV only (2 points each)

2x Group (3 points each)

2x OCV only (4 points each) (2nd set, double cost)

2x Melee (5 points each)

2x Group (6 points each) (2nd set, double cost)

2x All Cbt (8 points each)

2x OCV only (8 points each) (3rd set, quadruple cost)

2x General (10 points each)

2x Melee (10 points each) (2nd set, double cost)

2x Group (12 points each) (3rd set, quadruple cost)

etc

 

Cheapest progression (no melee/range crossover)

2x OCV only (2 points each)

2x Group (3 points each)

2x OCV only (4 points each) (2nd set, double cost)

Nx Melee (5 points each)

[Gunrunner]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

I really like the ideas you all have presented; and they have all influenced the way I will handle CSL's. LordGhee, NuSoardGraphite and Outsider, you all seem to use variations of the same idea - one that I like very much. Marcdoc, I'll definitely keep your advice in mind when dealing with my players. Thanks all!

[LordGhee]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

My first games twenty years ago I used a base of 125 points. last year I ran a game at 150 because the players forced me (really threats ect.) hehehe.I like the lower start. the hight point threw me until one of my friends and long time player mention that a bard she ran in an earlier game with experince was 250 pts (125 exp given over two and a half years of gaming for a total of one point a day average! and I was thought to be scimpy with exp. i gave away the world .

 

If you use the rules as the players do and as well as Markdoc suggest they will get varied or die (killing a few is motivating) oh and I have killed only two charaters (in a space game and a spy game. my players know that as I say the world is the world,

if you murder, con or steal then the culture or creatures will react. if you cross a desert you better bring water and if you throw a grenade make sure that the target will not have time to throw it back:eek:

 

let us hear about your game. please

[Gunrunner]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

Okay, after some pondering I finally came up with a system to structure the use of Combat Skill Levels. I find that it retains enough flexibility to allow characters to have different fighting skills/styles, and prevents them from becoming over-specialized. I also believe that this system is quasi-realistic in the way that someone would learn how to fight. Let me know what you guys think.

 

Characters can only apply to their Combat Value a number of given CSL's equal to that CSL's cost. The only exception to this rule is 8-point CSL's. The reasoning for this is that you can only gain so much skill with one weapon or fighting style before you begin gaining skill with other weapons or fighting styles. Mastering a weapon or fighting style involves being able to apply 10 Combat Skill Levels with that particular weapon or style.

 

So for example, a warrior with a greatsword could add up to two 2-point CSL's (greatsword), three 3-point CSL's (swords), five 5-point CSL's (HtH combat), and any number of 8-point CSL's to his Combat Value. Even if he didn't have any 8-point CSL's he would still be considered a Master with the greatsword because he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV. If instead, he had no 2-point CSL's, but had two 8-point CSL's he would be considered a Master with all swords, since he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV with any type of sword.

 

Note that this doesn't limit the type or number of CSL's someone may have, just how many he/she can use at one time. So as an example, this would make having more than two 2-point CSL's with one weapon generally useless unless he had Negative Skill Levels applied against him. That character could still benefit from having many 2 or 3-point CSL's with different weapons and weapon groups.

 

When I do get my game going LordGhee, I'll be sure to post what's going on

[UltraRob]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

 

Characters can only apply to their Combat Value a number of given CSL's equal to that CSL's cost. The only exception to this rule is 8-point CSL's. The reasoning for this is that you can only gain so much skill with one weapon or fighting style until you gain skill with other weapons or fighting styles. Mastering a weapon or fighting style involves being able to apply 10 Combat Skill Levels with that particular weapon or style.

 

I like it. Simple and effective.

 

Rob

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: a warrior's prowess, a thief's skill

 

Very nicely done. Let us know how it works in practice.