Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

[Powerhouse]

I'm writing up some characters, including when they were first 350 pt newbies. One is a mage with a VPP. I was thinking about using the "Slightly Limited Class of Powers: magic" which is a -1/4 limit. Just what does that mean anyway? How would it limit said character?

 

Also, does anyone think that many super mages probably have the "No skill roll needed" advantage for their VPP's since it only seems to affect beginners? Then again if you're using Dr Strange or Dr Fate for an example, as arch-mages they probably have Cosmic VPP's.

 

Thanks

[Chuckg]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

The primary effect of 'limited special effect -- magic' is that it lets any effect from that VPP be vulnerable to any Adjustment Power, special defense, etc. defined as working against magic.

[MitchellS]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

It also limits your power-selection choices. You're not going to pull an uzi out of your magic bag or krytonite because those things are not within the realms of your special effect.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Thank you for the responses so far, they are helping me quite a bit.

 

Would the advantage stop someone from having a EB defined as a "fire ball" or "lightning bolt" that would inflict electrical or fire damage? Or would an EB have to be some sort of nebulous magical energy that despite its appearance wouldn't trip someone's vulnerability to electrical or fire attacks (for example).

 

Thanks.

[MitchellS]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Thank you for the responses so far, they are helping me quite a bit.

 

Would the advantage stop someone from having a EB defined as a "fire ball" or "lightning bolt" that would inflict electrical or fire damage? Or would an EB have to be some sort of nebulous magical energy that despite its appearance wouldn't trip someone's vulnerability to electrical or fire attacks (for example).

 

Thanks.

No, you could have those attacks, they would just need to be considered magical fire or electricity as well, so if someone purchased 50% damage reduction, magic only, it would work against a magical fireball whereas it would not against a normal fireball.

[gojira]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Personally, I think VPPs get over used and abused. Of course, in your games it's up to you to do what you think best.

 

If it was me though, I'd also limit the VPP to a predefined list of spells, and make the player spend character time (and maybe points too, in the form of spell skills) researching any additional spells to be added to the VPP. Other restrictions like Gestures, Incantations, and Takes Extra Time are all good ways of limiting a VPP defined as magic.

 

For some types magic, it's best just to use a Multipower, espcially if the effect the player wants is a lot like a standard multipower (works all the time, 0 phase to adjust powers, can power a variety of effects at reduced efficeincy). Then add a small VPP with long time restriction and maybe OAF too--this allows "research" just the right talisman for any situation, just like Mr. Fantastic is able to invent new machines for any new situation, given time.

 

 

Just my two bucks, others have already explained the -1/4 Magic limitation you asked about.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Would the advantage stop someone from having a EB defined as a "fire ball" or "lightning bolt" that would inflict electrical or fire damage? Or would an EB have to be some sort of nebulous magical energy that despite its appearance wouldn't trip someone's vulnerability to electrical or fire attacks (for example).

 

In my game, you would lose the ability to use other SFX. It may look like fire or lightning, but won't trigger susc or vuln to such effects.

 

Now that assumes all you do is write "magic only - 1/4"

 

My preference would be for you to define the limits on your pool yourself. "Here are the things the character can do, and the things he can't" should be part of the definition of any character with a VPP. With the limitations you've applied, we could then sit down and determine how restricted it is, and set an approporiate value on the limitation.

[Chuckg]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

In my game, you would lose the ability to use other SFX. It may look like fire or lightning, but won't trigger susc or vuln to such effects.

 

Now that assumes all you do is write "magic only - 1/4"

 

I would disagree.

 

Take, for example, the average flame-thrower. It will, of course, trigger susceptibility or vulnerability to fire, be affected by Adjustment Powers vs. fire, etc.

 

But as it's a technological device, it will /also/ trigger susceptibility or vulnerability to technology... or be stymied by defenses only vs. technology (such as the 4e Death Dragon's), or be affected by Adjustment Powers vs technology, etc.

 

If such a condition exists for technologically-produced fire, I don't see any reason why it can't also exist for magically-produced fire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Take, for example, the average flame-thrower. It will, of course, trigger susceptibility or vulnerability to fire, be affected by Adjustment Powers vs. fire, etc.

 

But as it's a technological device, it will /also/ trigger susceptibility or vulnerability to technology... or be stymied by defenses only vs. technology (such as the 4e Death Dragon's), or be affected by Adjustment Powers vs technology, etc.

 

If such a condition exists for technologically-produced fire, I don't see any reason why it can't also exist for magically-produced fire.

 

I have no issue with magical powers being able to produce flames. I do not, however, see a need to have a -1/4 limitation for a VPP which can produce literally anything with the SFX "magic". A gadget pool gets a Focus limitation on its control cost, bvut doesn't get to add "technology only" for a further -1/4 limitation.

 

If you want your "magic VPP" to be able to produce SFX of any kind, don't apply a -1/4 limitation. Alternative;y, restrict it in other ways which add up to the same -1/4.

 

The problem with the "magic only" limitation is that there are numerous different concepts of what "magic" is and how it is restricted. Taking your example one step further, can I use my -1/4 limited Magic Only pool to create a technological (non-magical) flamethrower from thin air, then use it in exactly the manner you suggest above?

 

To me, the answer is "maybe". How is your magic pool defined? And, if your magic pool has no limiting factors beyond any other pool which gets no limitation to its control cost, your magic pool won't get a limitation either.

 

But maybe your magic pool is more restricted than -1/4 would indicate. Maybe there is a wide array of powers it cannot access which a normal VPP can. Well, in that case, you should get a higher limitation for treater restructions, just as you wpould get no limitation if restrictions were minor and few.

[Publius]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

To be honest, I have struggled with this one as well. A VPP should be for a limited SFX from the get go, kind of a built in limiting factor so when it is defined as Mystic Power Reserve or whatever it is by definition magical. I have considered how to do a Potter-esque system of magic before and this is what I came up with: "-1/4 only known spells". This way the player uses points to buy their capacity for magical power, and role-playing wise have to search out and learn spells to allow them to utilize that power in a directed fashion. Then use skill rolls and what have you to specify how well the spell comes off (maybe requiring a different skill for different types of magic like "Spell Skill: Transformation" and "Spell Skill: Illusions").

 

Of course, you can simply state from the outset that they can only use known spells as well and just make it another part of the natural limiting factor inherent to the VPP. If there are no other types of VPPs (no power rings or whatnot) then this would be fine too. It really depend son how you would like to set it up and whether or not there are other VPPs in your setting.

[Chuckg]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

The problem with the "magic only" limitation is that there are numerous different concepts of what "magic" is and how it is restricted.

 

And the solution is for the DM to pick whichever one of the many possible concepts for magic that he likes, and tell the player that this concept is the one he has to follow.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Once again, thanks everyone and I look foward to more advice on this and other matters.

 

For some background, I'm writnig up once again members of my Silver Knights team (mostly fanfic stuff... for now) and looking at them at various points in their career: novice (350 pointers) and really experienced (600 pointers).

 

One of the main characters is Lady Silver, a sorceress patterned in some respects after Dr. Strange in terms of power. Other characters I'm patterning her powers on are some of the mages in the 5e books (particuarly Mystic World and Arcane Enemies).

 

At the 350 pt level either a VPP or decently sized MP would work out fine but later on I want her to be able to hold her own later on against the likes of Adrian Vandeluer and the Patriarch of the Slyvestri Clan. Since both have VPP's, that seemed the way to go. A rather large MP might work as well at the point as well but nothing says "bad *** mage" like a VPP. Then again that could be a very narrow view from me.

 

The more I think about it, two MP's (one for attack/telportation and the other for defense) with a smaller VPP (ala Witchcraft) might not be a bad idea. The problem I guess is how much flexibility does she have? Not only the range of powers but also how each can be modified. It's one thing to have an entangle but another to be able to heap upon any type of advantage you want. If a spell is seen ala D&D: a specific equation that delivers a specific effect, then a MP decomes a better idea.

 

Around 630 pts, she'd going to have a "mystic radiation accident" and get shot up to a roughly 1050 arch mage which uses a Cosmic VPP as I gather from the Mystic Masters. At this point at least, you're starting to break the above view of a D&D style where now you can manipulate the magic around you to obey your focused mind to have unbelievable effects.

 

As for the limited SFX: magic only, I'm not sure about the whole thing. Except Witchcraft, I don't know if any other mage uses it so it might not be a great idea for me to select. Also, to simulate a Dr. Strange power suite, I'm considering a limit from the 4e Mystic Masters with no Aid, Heal, or characterstics. Dr. Strange never healed anyone with his magic and indeed I think there was a sharp dividing line between the magics of healing and the more aggresive arts (ie Topaz and Dr. Strange practicing two different styles of magic).

 

Hmm... comments? And thanks of course.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Shaping up a VPP- help with Limited effect: magic

 

Working a bit more, I tried a 350 pt character with the MP/small VPP (around 20 pts for the latter) which is ok but I need to shave a few points off. I also gave "GM permission" to put in instant change and universal translator into the VPP.

 

With 20 spells in a MP, an expanded suite of defensive spells in another, and a moderately sized 30 pt VPP, the point total really goes ka-blewey at higher experience levels though by about 70 pts (depending on disadvantages) which really shocked me. Back to the drawing board I guess. I'm going to consider the idea of having a predetermined list of spells though. I wonder if that could become an official limit in Champions. Hmm...

 

Still tinkering away, thanks everyone.