Question on Adjustment Powers

[Dr Archeville]

Some caveats: I only have a few 5E books (and haven't had them for very long, and they're the only HERO books I've ever owned), not 5Er, so (A) I'm still a newbie to the game, and ( it may well be that what I'm about to ask is already covered in the 5Er book.

 

Say I've got a Gadgeteer with a 60 point VPP Gadget Pool. One of his devices is a Synaptic Interference Generator pistol which causes weakness, vertigo, and slowed reaction times -- a Drain on STR, DEX, and SPD. How should it be built?

 

Drain Strength 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1) [real cost: 8 points] plus Drain Dexterity 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1), Linked to Drain (-½) [real cost: 6 points] plus Drain Speed 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1), Linked to Drain (-½) [real cost: 6 points]. Total Costs: 45 Active, 20 Real.

 

or

 

Drain Strength, Dexterity and Speed 2d6, Affects Three Characteristics Simultaneously (+1), Ranged (+½) [50 Active Points]; OAF (-1). Total Cost: 50 Active, 25 Real.

 

(Personally, I think that since being able to affect 2 Characteristcs/Powers simultaneously is a +½ Advantage, and being able to affect 4 simultaneously is a +1 Advantage, being able to affect 3 should be a +¾ Advantage. Was this changed in 5Er?)

 

Similarly, say he makes a Metabolic Leeching Gauntlet, which lets him sap a foe's strength, stamina and agility -- a Transfer on STR, DEX, and STUN. Should it be

 

Transfer 1d6 (target’s STR to Archeville’s STR) [15 Active Points]; OIF (-½) [real cost 10 points] plus Transfer 1d6 (target’s DEX to Archeville’s DEX) [15 Active Points]; OIF (-½), Linked to Transfer (-½) [real cost 8 points] plus Transfer 1d6 (target’s STUN to Archeville’s STUN) [15 Active Points]; OIF (-½), Linked to Transfer (-½) [real cost 8 points]. Total Cost: 45 Active, 26 Real points.

 

or

 

Transfer 2d6 (target’s STR to Archeville’s STR, target’s DEX to Archeville’s DEX, and target’s STUN to Archeville’s STUN), Affects Three Characteristics Simultaneously (+1) [60 Active]; OIF (-½). Total Cost: 60 Active, 40 Real points.

 

Which build is better/more accurate, and why?

[MitchellS]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

The second builds are the more accurate [and more powerful] way of doing it, though few probably build characters that way. The rules do not discuss a +3/4 for 3 characteristics but I would allow it as making sense.

 

Why is hard to answer, but I will say because they are cleaner and use the rules within the power itself rather then linked, which is a rule outside of the power itself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Both legal as far as I can see: as MitchellS says, the second build is more points efficent and powerful.

 

(Personally, I think that since being able to affect 2 Characteristcs/Powers simultaneously is a +½ Advantage, and being able to affect 4 simultaneously is a +1 Advantage, being able to affect 3 should be a +¾ Advantage. Was this changed in 5Er?)

 

There is not '3 powers = +3/4' in 5er, but should be

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Both legal as far as I can see: as MitchellS says' date=' the second build is more points efficent and powerful.[/quote']

 

But they are both legal builds for constructing the same power. Don't you always use the most expensive build?

 

JUst in jest, of course. I agree that the specific "affect more abilities" rule must override the general "linked" limitation. Mind you, this does serve two purposes at present. You can affect ,ultiple abilities OF THE SAME SPECIAL EFFECT, or multiple characteristics with no consideration of special effect. I could live with the rules being restricted to adding more than one power of the same special effect, but then we get into what the special effects of various characteristics are.

 

There is not '3 powers = +3/4' in 5er' date=' but should be [/quote']

 

Yes, there should. The system should also, in my opinion, differentiate between the character who can affect a number of abilities which are fixed, and a number he can select. To affect any one characteristic , no choice, costs +0. To affect any one characteristic, chosen with each attack costs +1/4. To affect any two characteristics, however, costs +1/2 regardless of whether or not you can vary which two attack by attack. Why?

 

Perhaps a better approach would be to double the number of characteristics, or powers with the same SFX, costs +1/2, and to allow the selection of characteristic(s) or power(s) to vary with each attack for +1/4.

 

Add to this that you can add half again the number of powers or characteristics for +1/4 (so doubled to 2 is +1/2, and you pay a further +1/4 to add one more), and that you get all characteristics or powers with those SFX for +2, and we have a complete set again.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

This seems ike a very logical and correct progression. Splendid idea.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Thanks, all!

 

And I agree with the floating head -- good idea, Hugh!

[schir1964]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

(Personally' date=' I think that since being able to affect 2 Characteristcs/Powers simultaneously is a +½ Advantage, and being able to affect 4 simultaneously is a +1 Advantage, being able to affect 3 should be a +¾ Advantage. Was this changed in 5Er?)[/quote']

Actually, based on comments made by Steve Long, the general rule about advantages that double things, is that it defines the maximum number you can define it as.

 

Basically, +1/2 allows 2 Powers, +1 allows 3 or 4 Powers, +1 1/2 allows 5/6/7 or 8 Powers, as the player wants to define it.

 

This is similar in how Megascale is treated also. Now the GM has full authority to allow in between values if he wants.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Actually' date=' based on comments made by Steve Long, the general rule about advantages that double things, is that it defines the maximum number you can define it as.[/quote']

 

Which is fine where those doublings are granular. +5 to double duplicates or ,ultiforms is about as low as I'd want to go, though I could be persuaded to allow +50% for +3 points.

 

Basically' date=' +1/2 allows 2 Powers, +1 allows 3 or 4 Powers, +1 1/2 allows 5/6/7 or 8 Powers, as the player wants to define it.[/quote']

 

But this also motivates the player whose power logically should affect 5 stats to pick another three - after all, they're free. With another +1/4 range available for use, why nmot use it and enhance the granularity of the choices?

 

Similarly, the current system motivates the ability to change which stats/powers are affected, since you have to pay for that ability regardless of whether you can or cannot use it.

 

This is similar in how Megascale is treated also. Now the GM has full authority to allow in between values if he wants.

 

With Megascale, there's no reasonable "part way in between" advantage unless you want to start working in 1/8's. And note that Megascale has "scaleable" separate from multiples, just as I would like to have the ability to vary the abilities segregated from the number of abilities affected.

[schir1964]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

...But this also motivates the player whose power logically should affect 5 stats to pick another three - after all, they're free. With another +1/4 range available for use, why nmot use it and enhance the granularity of the choices?

 

Similarly, the current system motivates the ability to change which stats/powers are affected, since you have to pay for that ability regardless of whether you can or cannot use it....

I totally agree. I wasn't commenting on whether it made sense or was granular. I was just pointing out the actual intent of usage. (8^D)

 

I have no problem with trying to make things more flexible. And it's possible that Steve Long makes an exception for this one. I was just giving the general rule based on his comments on others.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Drain Strength 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1) [real cost: 8 points] plus Drain Dexterity 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1), Linked to Drain (-½) [real cost: 6 points] plus Drain Speed 1d6, Ranged (+½) [15 Active Points]; OAF (-1), Linked to Drain (-½) [real cost: 6 points]. Total Costs: 45 Active, 20 Real.

vs.

Drain Strength, Dexterity and Speed 2d6, Affects Three Characteristics Simultaneously (+1), Ranged (+½) [50 Active Points]; OAF (-1). Total Cost: 50 Active, 25 Real.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but isn't the second one twice as effective as the first, i.e., it drains 2d6 from all three characteristics, and not just 1d6?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

vs.Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' please, but isn't the second one twice as effective as the first, [i']i.e.[/i], it drains 2d6 from all three characteristics, and not just 1d6?

 

No correction necessary, and in accordance with exponential theory, only 5 active points more expensive

[Shike019]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

I have a question. I am looking through HD and cannot find that Advantage anywhere.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

I have a question. I am looking through HD and cannot find that Advantage anywhere.

It's called variable effect.

[Shike019]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

THanks

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question on Adjustment Powers

 

Some interesting differences between the two strategies are:

• If you use one Adjustment Power with Variable Effects you usually make one Effect Roll. If you use multiple Adjustment Powers you usually make multiple Effect Rolls; one per Power. There's nothing that really says you have to stick to this, but it is the, "standard," interpretation anyway.
  
• If you use several Adjustment Powers you can vary the amount each Characteristic is affected. For example, if you wanted to Drain Str, Dex, and Con, and you wanted them to generally all be affected about the same in terms of value rather than Active Points, you could use a 1d6 Str Drain, 3d6 Dex Drain, and 2d6 Con Drain all Linked together (I would probably then allow one roll with a multiplier or divisor to figure the amounts for the others if it is appropriate for the concept and SFX of the power, but see the above point). IMO Linked Powers work better than a partially limited Power, partially Advantaged Power, or custom Modifier in this case.