Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

[Mister E]

You get +1 STUN for every 5 points worth of Growth. Do you guys think this is enough?

 

+1 BODY and +5 STR I can understand... but certainly STUN should have been doled out a little more generously... right?

 

1d6 Normal Damage does an average of 1 BODY and 3.5 STUN per hit. Using the Standard Effect Rule, you would round the 3.5 STUN to the more manageable figure of 3 STUN.

 

I think it's something of a S.N.A.F.U. that 5 points worth of Growth doesn't come with +3 STUN... and it's quite possible that this will become the first and only real "House Rule" at my gaming table.

 

~ Mister E

[mikesama]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

Well taking into account everythign, when you get 15 points of growth you get:

 

+15 Str costs end twice so real points: 10

+3 body Costs end real points: 4

+3 stun Costs end real points: 2

-3" KB Costs end real points: 4

+1" strteching No NCM real cost: 4

 

So you get 24 points of powers that you would normally pay for.

 

so take 6 points off for the 2 levels of perception bonus others get on the character which puts you to 18.

 

Then 3 points off for the extra weight as a minor physical limitation based on size. Now you got 15 points for 3 levels of growth.

 

 

Seems about right to me.

[Mister E]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

I hear you as for as Point Cost is concerned... but honestly, I don't care about that. If it seems appropriate, I'd probably just cost Growth to 7 points, or something.

 

What I'm really talking about is the amount of STUN you get per level of Growth. The Growth Power is a seriously significant (IMO) conceptual benchmarker for the HERO System, and it's silly for it to present such an easily correctable flaw as only providing +1 STUN per doubling of size/mass.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

Well taking into account everythign, when you get 15 points of growth you get:

 

+15 Str costs end twice so real points: 10

+3 body Costs end real points: 4

+3 stun Costs end real points: 2

-3" KB Costs end real points: 4

+1" strteching No NCM real cost: 4

 

So you get 24 points of powers that you would normally pay for.

 

so take 6 points off for the 2 levels of perception bonus others get on the character which puts you to 18.

 

Then 3 points off for the extra weight as a minor physical limitation based on size. Now you got 15 points for 3 levels of growth.

 

I wouldn't give "costs END" on anything but the STR - you have 10 AP instead of 5, so the STR is double END and you pay no extra END for anything else, including the stretching. Adding END back to all of those would add another 7 points to the cost, something of a "package bonus". This should also be offset by the reduced DCV, shouldn't it?

 

As far as the crux of the issue, if you think you should get jmore Stun, but Stun linked to Growth. Back in the old Giant-Man strip, Henry Pym would KO himself if he grew too big, so one could opine he gets less STUN the bigger he gets.

 

If he should get more Stun, shouldn't he get more PRE? He's bigger and more impressive, right? In older editions, there were additional stats added for both Growth and Density Increase (including +5 PRE for Growth). Growth then cost 10 points per level, rather than 5, making it much more difficult to create a "Giant Man" character derivbing his superior stats from growth. But he got a +50 PRE to go with that +50 STR.

 

There's actually a lot to be said for just buying the stats and abilities, with a side effect, and the special effect of "he gets bigger", "he gets smaller" or "he gets heavier/more dense". We could then just get rid of Growth, Shrinking and Density Increase entirely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

I seriously cannot recall at the moment whether the Characteristics from Growth affect Figured Characteristics. I should be able to remember that! Grr.... Anyway, if they do the Str and Body will give you an extra +3.5 Stun on average, for a total of +4.5. That certainly looks like a generous amount.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

Seems like you are assuming that something that is bigger should be significantly harder to knock out, but that is not logically linked.

 

If you take a person that is 4 foot tall and a person that is 6 foot tall, is it necessarily 33% harder to knock out the 6 foot tall person? Size and ruggedness are not as strongly coupled as you seem to think they should be.

 

If you are going to quibble over details pertaining to growth, there are much bigger issues involved. For instance, a character that is twice as tall has a stride twice as long, and yet their movement does not benefit in the slightest.

 

If you have a person who is so large that their hand is big enough to easily cover a hex, they still don't get AoE on their strikes.

 

Depending on how realistic you want to get, there are also issues regarding structural integrity and proportion. A person twice as big as a normal human but with the same proportions would logically suffer serious difficulties dealing with gravity.

 

Also, again in the realism arena as a person acquires more mass, they reach a point of diminshing efficiency in expending energy to move that mass.

 

Etc etc.

 

Growth is a power that is very comic booky in nature, and really boils down to a mechanic ideally suited to model Giant Man style characters from the comics. It can be used for other things, but the further one gets from the comic book genre the more absurd it becomes.

[mikesama]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

I wouldn't give "costs END" on anything but the STR - you have 10 AP instead of 5, so the STR is double END and you pay no extra END for anything else, including the stretching. Adding END back to all of those would add another 7 points to the cost, something of a "package bonus". This should also be offset by the reduced DCV, shouldn't it?

 

As far as the crux of the issue, if you think you should get jmore Stun, but Stun linked to Growth. Back in the old Giant-Man strip, Henry Pym would KO himself if he grew too big, so one could opine he gets less STUN the bigger he gets.

 

If he should get more Stun, shouldn't he get more PRE? He's bigger and more impressive, right? In older editions, there were additional stats added for both Growth and Density Increase (including +5 PRE for Growth). Growth then cost 10 points per level, rather than 5, making it much more difficult to create a "Giant Man" character derivbing his superior stats from growth. But he got a +50 PRE to go with that +50 STR.

 

There's actually a lot to be said for just buying the stats and abilities, with a side effect, and the special effect of "he gets bigger", "he gets smaller" or "he gets heavier/more dense". We could then just get rid of Growth, Shrinking and Density Increase entirely.

 

The reason I have everything costing end is that you have to pay end costs to keep growth going normally so technically you are getting the stats as costing end because as soon as you stop paying the end it goes away. The stretching already costs and and you get the reach from it automatically when you are grown.

[Mister E]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

I seriously cannot recall at the moment whether the Characteristics from Growth affect Figured Characteristics. I should be able to remember that! Grr.... Anyway' date=' if they [i']do[/i] the Str and Body will give you an extra +3.5 Stun on average, for a total of +4.5. That certainly looks like a generous amount.

Hm... Figured Characteristics from Growth... can anyone confirm or deny the existence of this phenomena?

 

I just noticed something interesting on page 118 (FRed) out of the Growth Power description:

 

The Growth Table provides details on the benifits and drawbacks of Growth. However' date=' the figures in the table are guidelines, not absolutes; the GM should feel free to alter them slightly based on special effects or to aid game ballance.[/quote']

 

What do you guys make of this?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

The reason I have everything costing end is that you have to pay end costs to keep growth going normally so technically you are getting the stats as costing end because as soon as you stop paying the end it goes away. The stretching already costs and and you get the reach from it automatically when you are grown.

 

True, but it doesn't cost any additional END (10 AP for the whole lot is all). I suppose you'd get a similar effect with Linked, though.

[GAZZA]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

The stats do not give figured characteristics.

 

Growth is not a bargain; it is actually quite expensive for what you get. Take one size doubling: +15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, -3" KB, +1 Reach, and you get penalties of -2 to DCV and a +2 to PER rolls to see you. Plus you could argue (I would so argue) that being 800kg and 4m tall was a disadvantage. That costs 15 points.

 

Instead, let's just buy 15 STR (+15 pts), 3 BODY (6 pts), +3 STUN (-7.5 pts; we get 3 from BODY, and we're losing the 7.5 from STR), -3" KB (6 pts). That's 19.5 points spent. However, you are also getting +3 PD (-3 points) and +3 REC (-6 points), so really you're getting that for 10.5 points.

 

We haven't bought the reach yet, though. That's +1" Stretching, 0 END Persistent (+1), No noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Direct only (-1/4), for 7 points. A total of 17.5 points.

 

True, this is 2.5 points more than Growth. However, it doesn't come with a lowered DCV or a penalty to hiding. +2 DCV is worth 10 points; even if -2 DCV is only worth half of that, it's still cheaper to just buy the stats directly.

 

Now, before anyone takes me to task here, there are a couple of caveats:

• Firstly, you cannot normally sell back Figured Characteristics. So if you have a tough character that was happy with his figured PD, REC, or STUN - and didn't spend at least 3 points on PD, 6 on REC, and 7.5 on STUN - then you can't really subtract it. I submit that most characters who get their STR from Growth are going to end up spending some points on PD and STUN, at least, and if they leave their REC unchanged they're at a significant disadvantage compared to the guy that just bought the stats.
  
• Growth gets better as you get bigger, because of the reach advantage. Beyond a certain point, the fact that your reach continues to double makes it prohibitively expensive to simulate with Stretching. Really big guys get a cost break. Moderately big guys pay for it.
  
• Many GMs that would balk at shoving stats into a Multipower or EC will calmly let you stick Growth in there. That's a not-inconsiderable advantage for Growth.
  

But realistically the power has never been a great deal. Shrinking is a much better deal than Growth is.

 

For 10 points of Shrinking, you get +2 DCV, -2 to opponent's PER rolls, and +3" KB. The DCV would normally cost you 10 points, and the hiding bonus can be viewed as a +2 on Stealth rolls, so that's about 14 points. Of course, Shrinking costs END (though note that 0 END Shrinking is only 15 points per level), and it does have that KB problem... on the other hand, it also has the growth momentum ability (+3d6 damage per 10 points), which is some sort of limited Hand Attack.

 

The two powers are not by any means symmetrical, of course, which means that technically you can have both powers activated simultaneously (though common sense should forbid that).

[Mike W]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

I think 1 STUN per growth is fine. You get 1 STUN for every 1 BODY right? So you get bigger, you get more BODY - and the same amount of STUN. A growing character is almost always a brick so link a few appropriate stats to the growth and everything is fine. Bricks are cheap characters to build as it is. If you're going to add more stats to Growth, you'll have to up the cost. But personally, I think it's fine as is. You get 1 STUN for every BODY - and since the BODY of objects is generally determined by their SIZE - it just makes sense to apply the same mechanic to people. At least when you're dealing with changing their SIZE. Of course, for people, BODY is more than just structural integrity(there was a great thread on the idea once), but the size of the strucuture is the only component we're changing with the Growth power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

For 10 points of Shrinking' date=' you get +2 DCV, -2 to opponent's PER rolls, and +3" KB...and it does have that KB problem....[/quote']

Yeah. A recent clarification from Steve makes the KB problem pretty crazy! Essentially every time you are hit you are going to be Knocked Back by that amount, even if the attacker rolls very very little damage and no normal Knockback. Though you wind up taking no damage from this Knockback, it still seems like a pretty hefty drawback. I guess that means you also go prone unless you can manage a Breakfall roll. Ouch!

[GAZZA]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

That's just silly, IMHO.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

That's just silly' date=' IMHO.[/quote']

Mine too. I just add it to the Body total before subtracting the Knockback dice and treat the result normally.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bonuses to STUN from the Growth Power

 

Mine too. I just add it to the Body total before subtracting the Knockback dice and treat the result normally.

Same. Otherwise its just silly.