"Puny Humans" Powers

[Wanderer]

I have tried to come up with a couple powers that ould effectively establish the theme that "only a superhuman can stop a superhuman", and allow supers to wreck stuff at leisure and laugh off ordinary weapons without requiring outrageous amounts of attack and defense powers.

 

Weapons of Puny Humans Cannot Touch Me: Desolidification (affected by Superpowers), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Normal Weapons (-1), Always On (-1/2)

 

Artifacts of Puny Humans Cannot Harm Nor Resist Me: Major Transform 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points) (ordinary objects into ordinary objects with Decreased (x5) STUN Multiplier vs. superhumans, Reduced Penetration vs. superhumans, x2 BODY Vulnerability to superhuman attacks, and 3d6 BODY Instant Susceptibility to superhuman attacks, heals back normally 1 Turn after the character leaves the area), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Trigger (character is in combat in superhuman form) (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (187 Active Points); Rapid Healing (-2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Target (ordinary objects) (-1/2)

 

OR

 

Artifacts of Puny Humans Cannot Resist Me: Major Transform 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points) (nonliving matter into nonliving matter with x2 BODY Vulnerability to superhuman attacks and 3d6 BODY Instant Susceptibility to superhuman attacks, heals back normally 1 Turn after the character leaves the area), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Trigger (character is in combat in superhuman form) (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (187 Active Points); Rapid Healing (-2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Target (nonliving matter) (-1/2)

 

Opinions ? I know some of these constructs might otherwise be rather abusive, but since they are mostly meant for flavour, because really-meaningful and poignant combat scenes generally involve superhumans vs. other superhumans or normals with super-tech, and the powers do not affect game balance between superhuman PC and NPC, I think a bit more lenience may be granted. However, I would like an opinion about the legal validity of the constructs. I have tried to keep the Real Points cost at a level that most superhuman characters might afford.

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Meh, better off just making them genuinely more powerful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Hmm... well, I've seen variations on the Desolid construct to simulate limited invulnerability in the 5E rulebook and some Champs supplements, so I'd say your take on that is quite reasonable. OTOH I would have trouble with the other two. While I appreciate the result you're going for, these are substantial Powers that every super in your campaign would have to buy as a default, unless you made them "Everysuper" Powers. That's a not-inconsiderable investment for something that, as you acknowledge, is really just for flavor. (BTW as a powerbuild note, these are still Visible.)

 

There are times when the temptation to stat out everything in HERO System terms leads us to unnecessary lengths; with all due respect, I think this is one of those times. To get the effect you're looking for, I would suggest that it's much easier to simply establish campaign groundrules as to things that your heroes' attacks are more effective at harming, and things that are less effective at harming them.

 

FWIW, I've been using my own house rules for such effects for a while now, derived in part from discussion here on the boards, and in part from suggestions for high-powered campaigns in Galactic Champions. Let me offer them just as one example of how to approach this.

 

I've essentially defined specific categories of attacks and defenses, which I call "Super Attacks" and "Super Defenses":

 

A "Super Attack" is any attack Power (including Strength) which is not built with the Real Weapon Limitation, and/or is 10 Damage Classes or more before Haymakering or Pushing. I chose 10 DC as an arbitrary cutoff to put it outside the HTH capability of most normal humans - you could go higher or lower as you prefer. Virtually all "normal" weaponry, however powerful, uses the Real Weapon Lim, so that puts it all within the realm of "non-super" attacks.

 

A "Super Defense" is the natural or artificial Defense of anything which does not have the Real Armor Limitation, and/or is built as a normal character, including Automatons, but not including Vehicles or inanimate objects such as walls. Objects or vehicles which are constructed of campaign-defined "super materials" - adamantium, inertron, questionite etc. - would also be considered to have "super defenses."

 

A Super Attack is treated as if it had the Armor Piercing Advantage when used against non-super defenses. A non-super attack used against Super Defenses is treated as if it had the Reduced Penetration Limitation. Non-super attacks affect non-super Defenses normally.

 

There are more details which I add for fine-tuning, but that's the gist of it.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Yeah, I’m thinking this is really not a good idea.

 

My general philosophy is “Points are meant to represent relative power. If you need to ignore points to do what you want, that’s ok, but just admit you’re ignoring them, don’t make a BS build that completely wrecks the power level.â€

 

Megascale, I’m looking at you.

 

Short version: “If you want to knock back a guy with Knockback Resistance, buy enough knockback to actually move him, don’t suppress his KB resistance.â€

 

Anyway. Enough preaching.

 

Either 1) actually increase the power of supers until normals really aren’t a threat, or reduce the power of human weapons and attacks until they really aren’t a threat. Or, preferably, both.

 

1) is pretty straightforward. Give supers a few more points, up the DC averages and the defense averages some.

 

is pretty straightforward, too. Halve the DC of all human weapons, don’t let them take martial arts, halve the defense of their armor. Ah, but you say, now a human can’t even kill another human! But give all non-supers a X2 Stun And X2 Body Vulnerability to “Human Weapons,†and that’s fixed.

 

Cap the stun mod for KA, and take out the multi-attacker bonus, and even a battalion of solders isn’t much of a threat. The only thing they can do is try to mob you and hold you down, so make sure everyone either has enough strength not to care, or some other defensive or offensive ability to compensate.

 

Halve the Def and Body of inanimate objects and vehicles, and even a moderate brick can wade through any military hardware. Except the M1 Abrams, of course. No stopping that.

 

There. Done. Mere humans can now only cower and beg for the favor of the mighty supers who protect them.

 

---

“Humans may be weak and pathetic, but they’re absolutely essential! They’re our only prey!!â€

[KA.]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

This is a job . . . for a House Rule!

 

How about something like

 

Any weapon bought with the Real Weapon Limitation,

(which would include pretty much anything that a Police Officer, Soldier, etc. would be using)

cannot do damage to someone whose Resistant PD/ED is Twice or More than the Maximum Body the weapon can do?

 

So, for example, if you use a "real" .38 Special (1d6+1 RKA) on Captain Hero with a RPD of 14 (6 +1 times 2) you just plain can't hurt him.

Now if Gunslinger has a weapon that he has bought as a Focus for a 1d6+1 RKA, it may still do STUN damage, just like normal, because it is "special" (as in, it was paid for with points, not bought at the local gun shop), but the normal old .38 that is in the cash drawer is NOT going to Stun a Supervillain.

(Or a Superhero under really bad circumstances.)

 

I think this could give you the feel you want without having to add a bunch of stuff to every Super's character sheet.

 

KA.

[OddHat]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

I'd just take three steps:

 

1) Weapons with the Real Weapon limit take Standard Effect, meaning that the stun lotto is gone.

 

2) Build your "normal" humans with stats at 20 or under, and don't let them buy extra DC with their MA. Similarly, restrict them to at most 3 skill levels, or +3 with any skill.

 

3) Let player characters and other Supers build their attacks and defenses with high active point caps.

 

With the above rules, you now have a clear idea of how much damage the most powerful Real Weapons can inflict, and of the highest CVs of Normals in your game. Supers built on 450+ points (or less, depending on build) should easily be able to trump Normals in any area called for by the character concept.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

I use a house rule (which I stole from someone else, can't remember who) which states that if an attack with Real Weapon has a maximum damage that won't penetrate a super's defense, the super takes no stun, either. Thus, an 18 rPD makes a character completely immune from .50 BMG fire (and all lesser guns, obviously) but still able to be hurt by a 6d6 Energy Blast (if it's not a Real Weapon).

 

Real Armor, of course, does not get this ability.

 

I decided to use this rule when I was trying to write up a power armor character and realized just what it would take to make him shrug off .50 BMG fire. That's potentially 90 stun!

 

This method could be considered nothing more than a clarification of the pre-existing Real Weapon and Real Armor limitations, which makes it nice and clean from my perspective.

 

Zeropoint

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Hmm... well, I've seen variations on the Desolid construct to simulate limited invulnerability in the 5E rulebook and some Champs supplements, so I'd say your take on that is quite reasonable. OTOH I would have trouble with the other two. While I appreciate the result you're going for, these are substantial Powers that every super in your campaign would have to buy as a default, unless you made them "Everysuper" Powers. That's a not-inconsiderable investment for something that, as you acknowledge, is really just for flavor. (BTW as a powerbuild note, these are still Visible.)

 

There are times when the temptation to stat out everything in HERO System terms leads us to unnecessary lengths; with all due respect, I think this is one of those times. To get the effect you're looking for, I would suggest that it's much easier to simply establish campaign groundrules as to things that your heroes' attacks are more effective at harming, and things that are less effective at harming them.

 

FWIW, I've been using my own house rules for such effects for a while now, derived in part from discussion here on the boards, and in part from suggestions for high-powered campaigns in Galactic Champions. Let me offer them just as one example of how to approach this.

 

I've essentially defined specific categories of attacks and defenses, which I call "Super Attacks" and "Super Defenses":

 

A "Super Attack" is any attack Power (including Strength) which is not built with the Real Weapon Limitation, and/or is 10 Damage Classes or more before Haymakering or Pushing. I chose 10 DC as an arbitrary cutoff to put it outside the HTH capability of most normal humans - you could go higher or lower as you prefer. Virtually all "normal" weaponry, however powerful, uses the Real Weapon Lim, so that puts it all within the realm of "non-super" attacks.

 

A "Super Defense" is the natural or artificial Defense of anything which does not have the Real Armor Limitation, and/or is built as a normal character, including Automatons, but not including Vehicles or inanimate objects such as walls. Objects or vehicles which are constructed of campaign-defined "super materials" - adamantium, inertron, questionite etc. - would also be considered to have "super defenses."

 

A Super Attack is treated as if it had the Armor Piercing Advantage when used against non-super defenses. A non-super attack used against Super Defenses is treated as if it had the Reduced Penetration Limitation. Non-super attacks affect non-super Defenses normally.

 

There are more details which I add for fine-tuning, but that's the gist of it.

 

Gotta agree, this would be the best way to handle it if you absolutely must.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

I use a house rule (which I stole from someone else, can't remember who) which states that if an attack with Real Weapon has a maximum damage that won't penetrate a super's defense, the super takes no stun, either. Thus, an 18 rPD makes a character completely immune from .50 BMG fire (and all lesser guns, obviously) but still able to be hurt by a 6d6 Energy Blast (if it's not a Real Weapon).

 

Real Armor, of course, does not get this ability.

 

I decided to use this rule when I was trying to write up a power armor character and realized just what it would take to make him shrug off .50 BMG fire. That's potentially 90 stun!

 

This method could be considered nothing more than a clarification of the pre-existing Real Weapon and Real Armor limitations, which makes it nice and clean from my perspective.

 

Zeropoint

 

If you got it from these boards I'm pretty certain you stole it from me. I find this works really well for the "wade through hail of gunfire laughing" scenario which is common in the source comics. Wanderer seemed to be going for something with broader effects, though, which is why I detailed my other approach.

[Wanderer]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Lord Liaden - I was indeed aiming for something more broad, since your solution seems a bit insufficient to me. IMO the STUN lottery needs to be gone from real weapons, the best way may be to lower the stun multiplier down to 2, or, even better, 1 in addition to Reduced Penetration, so that real weapons do x 1/2 BODY and x1 STUN to supers. As for defenses of inanimate objects, Armor Piercing is good, but insufficient, since military stuff might have Hardened armor in several cases, and I wish to see supers tearing apart M1 Abrams like thin wood . So I thought to take the idea from Galactic Champions and Ultimate Brick and make all non-super stuff Vulnerable AND Susceptible to super powers.

 

However, your definitions of "Super Attack" and "Super Defense" are fine, since, if we wish to go really nitpicky about definition, the border between super and not-super isn't so clealry defined in HERO. However, I think we might probably all agree that the general idea of "everything not superpowers and super-tech" is clear, even if there are some areas that might be fuzzy about "borderline tech": e.g. should the low-end ordnance energy weapons VIPER and UNTIL agents sport should be treated as super-tech or not ? They are on the same rough power level as ordinary firearms. That's why your idea of a DC threshold in addition to real weapons is fine. I do not worry overmuch about the HTH bare-handed attacks of normals. IMO firearms and military stuff (and some building materials) is what really needs to be depowered in order to make Attack and Defense inflation less of a need for supers. BTW, I think your "non-super" category can be summarized as "any real weapon or armor, or inanimate object or vehicle built from ordinary materials", right ?

 

Just for fun, I thought it would be nice to construct the House Rule just like an actual Power that all supers (or at the very least, those above a given power threshold - either 350 or 450 pts. would be fine, IMO) might have. A bit touch of reality alteration supers bring with them as they go, and tinkers with the ordinary physics. In CU terms, you might even think of it as a side effect of that "groundwork-magic" that makes superpowers possible.

 

If I were to use such a construct, of course I would make it something of an "everysuper" power. How could you even doubt of it ? Oh, and I acknowledge my Transform construct indeed lacks IPE. It might not need it, however. You might think of the effect going through the area like a wave orginiating from the super like a wave for a moment, a funny light/sound/smell. Something similar is often used in movies and TV.

 

BTW, the difference between an Houserule and an Everysuper Power is very thin indeed, don't you think ?

 

Zeropoint and KA - your idea of a threshold is cute. It is quite similar to what I was trying to do with the Decreased STUN Multiplier: giving five levels of it to Real Weapons means even the ones with + 1 Increased STUN Multiplier will be fixed to a x1 Multiplier.

 

Oddhat - removing the Stun lottery helps a hefty part of the problem, but still doesn't settle it, since you still have to pump supers to obscene powers to have them smash a tank with a single punch or blast, as in the sources.

 

Ura-maru - can I observe that your solution looks as much as convolute as my own At least, after much toil, I've been able to stuff all of my own in a single house rule -and power construct - or two (though my definition of non-super stuff might need some fine-tuning, as Lord Liaden aptly pointed out.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Lord Liaden - I was indeed aiming for something more broad' date=' since your solution seems a bit insufficient to me. IMO the STUN lottery needs to be gone from real weapons, the best way may be to lower the stun multiplier down to 2, or, even better, 1 in addition to Reduced Penetration, so that real weapons do x 1/2 BODY and x1 STUN to supers. As for defenses of inanimate objects, Armor Piercing is good, but insufficient, since military stuff might have Hardened armor in several cases, and I wish to see supers tearing apart M1 Abrams like thin wood . So I thought to take the idea from Galactic Champions and Ultimate Brick and make all non-super stuff Vulnerable AND Susceptible to super powers. [/quote']

 

You should absolutely adjust the groundrules in whatever way works best for what you want. Just to clarify, though, I define Super Attacks as "working like Armor Piercing," i.e. halving defenses, not actually being Armor Piercing. Hardened makes no difference in this regard in my games, although it would for attacks that actually have the Armor Piercing Advantage. (Super AP attacks reduce non-super Defenses to 1/4 where applicable.) I find this method easier to keep track of when dealing with Real Armor worn by characters, than the Vulnerability/Susceptibility method. But of course YMMV.

 

However' date=' your definitions of "Super Attack" and "Super Defense" are fine, since, if we wish to go really nitpicky about definition, the border between super and not-super isn't so clealry defined in HERO. However, I think we might probably all agree that the general idea of "everything not superpowers and super-tech" is clear, even if there are some areas that might be fuzzy about "borderline tech": e.g. should the low-end ordnance energy weapons VIPER and UNTIL agents sport should be treated as super-tech or not ? They are on the same rough power level as ordinary firearms. That's why your idea of a DC threshold in addition to real weapons is fine. I do not worry overmuch about the HTH bare-handed attacks of normals. IMO firearms and military stuff (and some building materials) is what really needs to be depowered in order to make Attack and Defense inflation less of a need for supers. BTW, I think your "non-super" category can be summarized as "any real weapon or armor, or inanimate object or vehicle built from ordinary materials", right ? [/quote']

 

That's pretty close to it, although I do find that bare-handed HTH attacks should be taken into account. Even a normal can get in a lucky shot, especially if he has some kind of Martial Art. And of course, bare hands don't actually take the "Real Weapon" Lim, so the DC threshold is a pertinent way to distinguish the Super from the non-Super for these kinds of attacks. Again, YMMV.

 

I also include the "low-end ordnance energy weapons" used by super agents in "super-tech." As you note, their power is roughly comparable to ordinary firearms; so what reason would an agency have to equip their agents with all this expensive gear instead of real-world weapons? Using rules like these, the super-tech is more effective against the kinds of foes these agents are likely to go up against.

 

Just for fun, I thought it would be nice to construct the House Rule just like an actual Power that all supers (or at the very least, those above a given power threshold - either 350 or 450 pts. would be fine, IMO) might have. A bit touch of reality alteration supers bring with them as they go, and tinkers with the ordinary physics. In CU terms, you might even think of it as a side effect of that "groundwork-magic" that makes superpowers possible.

 

If I were to use such a construct, of course I would make it something of an "everysuper" power. How could you even doubt of it ? Oh, and I acknowledge my Transform construct indeed lacks IPE. It might not need it, however. You might think of the effect going through the area like a wave orginiating from the super like a wave for a moment, a funny light/sound/smell. Something similar is often used in movies and TV.

 

BTW, the difference between an Houserule and an Everysuper Power is very thin indeed, don't you think ?

 

Quite true, which is why I wasn't initially impressed with the builds you presented. I suspected that you felt you actually needed to build these Powers to achieve the effect you were looking for. OTOH as a creative exercise I can certainly see the appeal - HERO gamers do this sort of tinkering all the time.

 

Again, I support adjusting the game parameters any way you see fit until you and your players are satisfied. I'm glad to help any gamer get to the kind of game he or she wants, even if I wouldn't choose to go there myself.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Ura-maru - can I observe that your solution looks as much as convolute as my own

 

Not really. Mine involved making actual changes to the setting. Yours involved constant use of two complicated powers, that you probably wouldn’t allow a player to buy in any other form, to sorta-simulate making the actual changes to the setting.

 

My point was, if you want supers to be immune to human attacks, then you should either change the actual builds to make them immune, (which is not difficult) or just hand-wave it, which is ok, too. (In your case, that would be ‘Normal’s attacks can’t hurt supers, and everything non-super takes double damage from supers) I think trying to force an in-game build to justify setting-based hand-waving is a mistake.

 

In either case, the ‘setting changes’ part of mine came down to ‘Halve The Attack Power and Defenses Of Everything Non-Super, Except When Attacking Another non-Super’ ‘Cap the Stun Lotto,’ and ‘Get Rid Of The Combat Options That Are Specifically There To Allow Groups Of Normals To Threaten Supers.’ Doesn’t seem particularly complicated to me.

 

---

“There’s no way to beat him . . . He’s a monster . . . a monster . . .â€

[OddHat]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Oddhat - removing the Stun lottery helps a hefty part of the problem, but still doesn't settle it, since you still have to pump supers to obscene powers to have them smash a tank with a single punch or blast, as in the sources.

 

If you want Supers who can one-shot smash a tank, you're already talking about very high power levels. The All Real Tech Takes Double Damage rule works well enough, but in my own high power campaigns I've found that just lifting damage caps has a more consistant feel. You end up with an increase in lethality, but you don't have to ask why Uber-Man can smash a tank but can't kill a normal in a single blow.

 

If he doesn't want to accidently kill a normal, he can learn to exercise restraint.

[Enforcer84]

Re: "Puny Humans" Powers

 

Or you could buy half the defenses of tanks and such as "Only against 'real weapons'" to keep the symetry you got going with the weapons power reduction. It's a bit more book keeping, but not really.