Help me build a shrinkable lab

[GoldenAge]

Bastion's powers are derived from a complex mechanism of his own creation that manipulates subatomic chromodynamic forces. Utilizing the Chromo-Dial, a Chromo-Field projector worn around his waist with field amplifiers constructed as bracers, Bastion is able to manipulate his size and mass from subatomic to gigantic. By harnessing the power of quantum chromodynamic fields Bastion (Dr. Sebastian Castle) has opened a Pandora’s box of potential.

 

There’s plenty of comicbook president for size manipulation. Marvel has Dr. Pym and his Pym Particles and DC has Ray Palmer (The Atom) and his Dwarf Star technology. Both scientists have developed their shrinking technology to the point where they can safely and consistently shrink whatever they need, be it organic or inorganic. And both have utilized their shrinking powers to create small labs and/or technology that they can reconstitute in the field.

 

I would like to do the same thing with Bastion.

 

The Epic Alliance (Epic City’s newest and best hope for Truth and Justice – read: 4-color campaign) has a headquarters (see it here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32904 ) complete with labs that the players paid for. What I’d like to do is add Shrinking to Bastion’s lab, remove the fixed limitation and shrink it down to the size of a marble so that Bastion can have a lab at his disposal wherever he goes.

 

My GM is okay with the idea as long as I put several minutes of extra time on its use in order to remove it from combat situations.

 

How would you create a shrunken portable base that can be:

1. Used by a shrunken person?

2. Reconstituted to its regular size and utilized by any scientist (with the appropriate skills)?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

For use while shrunken, create it as a Base in another dimension, and use X-Dim move, defined as "Shrinking", to get there.

 

For reconstituting it in the field, build it as a small base with a lab in said base, and then use Summon. Make sure you pay the "Slavishly Loyal" modifier, though, because that's the official stance on summoning machines and such.

[APE]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Why not buy a small base and give it Shrinking: persistant.

 

Or buy skill levels extra time SFX portable lab.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

For use while shrunken, create it as a Base in another dimension, and use X-Dim move, defined as "Shrinking", to get there.

 

For reconstituting it in the field, build it as a small base with a lab in said base, and then use Summon. Make sure you pay the "Slavishly Loyal" modifier, though, because that's the official stance on summoning machines and such.

 

Thanks Dr. Anomaly,

 

But does your solution mean that every shrunken character must have X-Dim movement to access the lab?

 

And what about cost? Do you buy it as a power for the character or do you get the Lab bonus of 1/5?

 

Personally I think Summon and X-Dim move are examples of extreme and somewhat awkward rules manipulation to accomplish this construct. There must be an easier way to describe this lab by the rules.

 

The lab is a concealable "marble" that is on Bastion's person (when he wishes). Should a villain become aware of the lab there could be an opportunity for it to be stolen. If it is returned to normal size anyone could enter it and potentially utilize its components (skill bonuses).

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Why not buy a small base and give it Shrinking: persistant.

 

Or buy skill levels extra time SFX portable lab.

 

Its more complex than that. How would other scientists use the lab, especially when Bastion isn't around. Would you define it as a focus? what about cost?

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

For use while shrunken, create it as a Base in another dimension, and use X-Dim move, defined as "Shrinking", to get there.

 

For reconstituting it in the field, build it as a small base with a lab in said base, and then use Summon. Make sure you pay the "Slavishly Loyal" modifier, though, because that's the official stance on summoning machines and such.

Definitely a good concept!!!

[APE]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

The base with srinking could have a Trigger to turn the shrinking off and on ie. a small button on the outside. You don't want imobile since you're carrying it around. Whats nice about this is it could also have a manufactoring unit in it.

 

The skill levels would be a focas to your flaver, the extra time would be the lab expanding or shrinking.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Thanks Dr. Anomaly,

 

But does your solution mean that every shrunken character must have X-Dim movement to access the lab?

 

And what about cost? Do you buy it as a power for the character or do you get the Lab bonus of 1/5?

 

Personally I think Summon and X-Dim move are examples of extreme and somewhat awkward rules manipulation to accomplish this construct. There must be an easier way to describe this lab by the rules.

 

The lab is a concealable "marble" that is on Bastion's person (when he wishes). Should a villain become aware of the lab there could be an opportunity for it to be stolen. If it is returned to normal size anyone could enter it and potentially utilize its components (skill bonuses).

If you were just going to have the lab miniaturized to, say, 1" x 1" or something, I wouldn't bother with the X-Dim movement option -- I'd go with the idea APE suggested, but I wouldn't use a Base, I'd use a Vehicle. (Bases aren't supposed to be moved around; Vehicles can be.) And in that case, I'd just say that any character shrunk down to an equivalent size could use the lab in the "vehicle". If that's not the case, and the lab's going to be microscopic in size, I'd build the base with an X-Dim portal that can only be used by characters shrunk to an appropriate size -- let the base bear the burden of the cost of the X-Dim movement.

 

In any case, if you buy it as a base (other dimensional) or a really tiny vehicle, you'd tally the cost of the base (or vehicle), counting the cost of the lab, and then pay 1/5 the cost for it. For example, if your lab (mini-base that's basically just a lab) came in at a cost of 25 points, you'd pay 5 points for it. You wouldn't apply the Focus limitation to the base or vehicle as a whole, though you might to the lab & equipment inside. It not being defined as a Focus doesn't mean a villain couldn't steal it, though...after all, it's not unknown for a villain to make off with a hero's vehicle, and if you go the "vehicle" route (so it's portable when shrunk, the way a base shouldn't be) then that's just part and parcel of it being a vehicle.

 

If you go the Summon route, it's the same thing...a lab that came to a cost of 25 points would be a 5 point summon, though with the +1 Slavishly Loyal modifier it'd come out to 10 points. You wouldn't "double dip" by saying "Okay, it's a 25 point base, so that means I'd pay 5 points for it, but since I'm also Summoning it and the cost of a Summon =1/5, then I only pay 1 point for it. Oh, wait, 2 points because of +1 Slavishly Loyal." That's not kosher.

 

In regards to who could use the lab's abilities and how, that depends entirely on how you want to build it. There's been some discussion recently on that very topic -- labs in bases. What I'm suggesting is, in essence, just the "wrapper" around the actual game-mechanic-build for the lab.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

For example, if you go the Vehicle route, start with a Vehicle of size category 9. That gives you a lab that's 8" x 4".

 

A lab doesn't need STR, DEX, Running, or Swimming. Sell them all down to 0. Now you've "spent" a net -54 points on your "vehicle". In other words, you've got 54 points to spend on lab Skills, 0 END Persistant Triggered Shrinking, and so on. You'll probably go above zero (given how expensive Shrinking is) but since the minimum cost of anything is 1 point anyway...

 

Don't forget that Vehicular equipment gets the "Bulkly" limitation (-1/2) in addition to whatever Focus limitation you may put on it. For most lab equipment, OIF is probably a good way to go...the equipment is inside the lab, not external to it, so it's not "accessible" under combat conditions (unless of course you're inside). The equipment that does the Shrinking of the lab is probably the same way. So the cost of your lab equipment (Skills) and the Shrinking equipment would both end up with -1 Limitation OIF Bulkly Focus. That will help with the cost.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Vehicle rules seem to read right but feel a bit wrong. I'm getting more comfortable with the summon and x-dim move ideas.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Here's an example "vehicle" lab:

Val	Char	Cost	Notes	
9	Size	45	Length 8",  Width 4",   Area 32"   Mass 51.2 ton   KB -9	
0	STR	-55	Lift 25.0kg; 0d6	
0	DEX	-30	OCV 0 DCV -6	
19	BODY	0		
2	DEF	0		
1	SPD	0	Phases:  7	
		Total Characteristic Cost: -54	

Cost	Powers	END	
67	Shrinking (0.0312 m tall, 0.0004 kg mass, -12 PER Rolls to perceive character, +12 DCV, takes +18" KB), Trigger (Button) (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2); OIF Bulky (Mass Shunt Generator; -1)	0	


Skills	
8	Criminology 16-; OIF Bulky (Lab Equipment; -1)	
8	Electronics 16-; OIF Bulky (Lab Equipment; -1)	
8	Mechanics 16-; OIF Bulky (Lab Equipment; -1)	
4	SS:  Quantum Chromodynamics 16-; OIF Bulky (Lab Equipment; -1)	


Total Powers & Skill Cost: 95
Total Cost: 41

 

 

Since the total cost is 41, that'll cost you (41/5) = 8 points as a Vehicle, and you don't have to mess with Summon or X-Dim Movement.

 

 

I didn't know what kind of labs you wanted in it, so I just chose 3 rather general ones, and one Science one that seems oriented towards you own specialty.

 

You may want to buy up the vehicle's DEF to make it more durable and less likely to have shots penetrate the lab's walls.

 

Also note there are no Disads defined for this vehicle, and given what you said about the GM's preferences, you may want to add Extra Time (Only to Start or Shut Off) on the Shrinking.

[gojira]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

The X-Dim movement is definately a good idea.

 

I was going to suggest giving the base Teleportation with the SFX "un-shrinks", but that wouldn't cover use while still "shrunk". Definately the xdim movement is something to consider for this application.

 

You might try something like a Foci (the marble) which has two powers:

1. Summon base.

2. X-dim movement, useable by others, only for Xdim to enter the base.

 

That way anyone who can use the Focus can enter the base or summon it. Also villians can now try to steal your base and unlock it's secrets, giving you DNPC: Shrunken base.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Ah, just give the Base Shrinking and make it mobile (to assure it isn't being abused, you could give it Speed and Non-Combat Movement--probably Flight or Teleportation--equal to the character's). Make the Shrinking enough that it could fit, "in a pocket," or briefcase or whatever. Call the rest SFX and deal with it using common sense. Why overthink things?

 

EDIT: Oh, and anyone who has at least as many levels of Shrinking (or maybe one less--up to you and depends on how spatious the Base is when not shrunken) as the Base is currently using can utilize it.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Personally I would not build it like Dr. A suggests at all.

 

You can build Labs all sorts of ways, either as actual skills purchased by a Base/Vehicle or as FOCI for Skill Levels.

 

I would build the lab as Skill Levels UBO, the walls and all that are SFX.

 

Since the lab is techically really really small though EDM is the route to go since your character and others that he invites along are not readily accessable.

 

Thus Skill Levels UBO linked to EDM: NanoLab (Accessed by 75AP Shrinking or EDM only)

 

Hawksmoor

[JmOz]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

I actualy have a character with something similar. I built it as 5 point Skill levels with OIF

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Hey, wait a sec. No way am I giving 54 free points for every base in the world, just because they’re going to define it as a no-engine vehicle. No way in hell.

 

At the very, VERY most, I’d allow ‘No Figured Characteristics’ on the Size, and a cannot ‘cannot move under it’s own power’ phys lim.

 

Probably not even that, though. The way UMV handles these, they just sell off their 6" base running . . .

 

---

 

I think we’re looking at this from the wrong direction. Bases already have a perk-style cost for where they’re located.

 

Now, ‘Really Really Tiny’ isn’t that hard. If you need, say, 75 points of shrinking to get in, it’s harder to break into than an X-Dimensional base. (How many characters have 75 points of shrinking? Not very many!) But it’s much easier to attack than an X-D base, but almost as hard to find. So I’d say it should be worth more or less what X-D is, 35 points.

 

Since it can’t move under it’s own power, I could live with it being a Base instead of a Vehicle. More than being mobile, you can take it anywhere, which is a pretty big advantage. But, you’re already paying 75 points for the shrinking, which more or less covers the ‘in my pocket’ part. So maybe an extra 5 or 10 points for being mobile.

 

---

 

On the other hand, and you’re not going to like this, what we’re really talking about has almost none of the normal limitations of a Base. It does have pretty much all the limitations and other characteristics of a Focus, though. So, the really fair thing to do is this. Figure out what the base would cost, (without the ‘location’ perk) and instead of dividing by 5 for a Base, divide by 1 1/2 for an IAF.

 

I warned you wouldn’t like it . . .

 

---

And what are you going to do when Bastion holds it over someone, turns off the shrinking, and lets it fall on them?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

And what are you going to do when Bastion holds it over someone, turns off the shrinking, and lets it fall on them?

Hadn't thought of that... heh. I would assume a simple 0 point limitation like "Can't be used as a weapon" or something would be enough to cover the problem.

 

 

.... So far...

 

Building the lab as a vehicle is quite an idea and a perfect way to take advantage of the rules. But I hardly think that it fits the intent of the rules.

 

X-tra Dimensional movement/Summon doesn't cover the labs ability to grow and be available to anyone. Or the labs ability to be taken away or left behind in a shrunken state to be used by other hero-scientists with shrinking. What if Hank and Janet stopped by for tea?

 

Building the lab as simple skill levels really limits the color of the lab. Wouldn't it be possible to be studying a suit of Bio-Armor... in the lab? Or perhaps you have a coffee machine in there and after a hard night everyone on the team... and a few remaining cops... need a stiff cup of java???

 

Focus best describes the labs ability to move and exist as a small and standard sized structure. I guess it's possible to pack enough limitations on it to make it cost efficient?

 

I'm still confused and unsure where to go!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Hang on, I've got an idea coming on...a bit unusual, but I don't think it's against the rules...

 

Okay, first, let's buy a lab of a certain type; let's use Electronics as our example. In order that anyone can get some benefit, we'll buy the entire Skill, not just Skill Levels. Something like this:

 

17 Electronics 16-

 

(That's a base skill of 9- for 3 points, and 7 skill levels for 14 points, or 17 points total.)

 

So an Electronics lab with a Skill roll of 16- costs 17 points.

 

Now, you want it to be (a) usable by shrunken individuals when it's small and ( usable by anyone when it's expanded to normal size.

 

When it's in its shrunken state, it's readily transportable, so defining it as an OAF doesn't seem unreasonable; that's a -1. You also want it to only be usable by those with the appropriate levels of Shrinking. That'd be a custom limitation, and considering that you are probably the one who's going to be using it most often, not that big a limitation. I'd call it a -1/4, though a different value may suit the taste of you and your GM better.

 

So when shrunk, it has a total of -1 1/4 in Limitations.

 

When expanded, it should be usable by anyone, but will be the size of a small building and thus not transportable. OIF seems better (since you can't "take it away" with a combat manuever, and the equipment inside is not "accesible" unless you're inside the building). Since it is immovable, though, that would be an appropriate add-on, making a total of -1 1/2. Your GM also wanted it to be a "not in combat"-style of thing, so it's supposed to take you extra time to set up. Why not use the "Arrangement" option for the Focus Limitation? The "Arrangement" consists of unshrinking the lab in an appropriate area/setting -- on level ground, on a surface that can support it, in an area big enough for it, etc. That's another -1/4 for a total of -1 3/4 in Limitations.

 

Here's the trick:

 

Make it a Multipower. But don't put any "Focus" Limitations on the 'pool' cost. Only put them on the slots.

 

Also, put "Lockout" on each slot. (Another -1/2. Not really needed, points-wise, [it won't save any] but it fits the "feel" of the device.)

 

17 Multipower: Shrinkable Lab

1u Portable Lab: Electronics 16-, OAF Shrunken Lab (-1), only usable by someone with the appropriate amount of Shrinking active (-1/4), Lockout (-1/2)

1u Full-Scale Lab: Electronics 16-, OIF Immobile Full-Sized Lab, Arrangement (-1 3/4), Lockout (-1/2)

 

The SFX of Slot 1 is that it's a tiny, marble-sized lab which can only be accessed if you're small enough, and which could be grabbed/stolen/etc. The SFX of Slot 2 is that it's been expanded up to full size, and is available to anyone, though it takes some time to "set up" and you have to find an area in which you can set it up.

 

This way, the SFX takes care of the "it's shrunk and can be carried / it can be expanded to full size" without messing around with X-Dim movement, Summons, or mangling the Vehicle rules. It also automatically rules out the "expand it and drop it on someone" since the 'Arrangement' Limitation makes you take extra time and only set it up in an appropriate area/setting. In other words, it gets rid of a lot of problems or potential abuses quite neatly, and without any real 'rules lawyering'. Switch to the "shrunken lab" slot, and it's now a marble-sized portable device (because of the OAF Limitation and SFX); switch to the "full size lab" slot, and it expands back to normal size (because it's now an OIF Immobile, and that's the SFX for that slot).

 

What do you think?

 

Now this costs you 19 points, which is fairly pricey; but if you add similar pairs of slots for other labs, I think you'll find it to be actually quite cost effective. For example, adding

 

1u Portable Lab: Criminology 16-, OAF Shrunken Lab (-1), only usable by someone with the appropriate amount of Shrinking active (-1/4), Lockout (-1/2)

1u Full-Scale Lab: Criminology 16-, OIF Immobile Full-Sized Lab, Arrangement (-1 3/4), Lockout (-1/2)

 

only costs you an extra 2 points, but gives you access to an entire other lab type. You can only use one lab at a time, but heck...pretty workable, eh?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Addendum: I did consider suggesting taking a "each slot is at least OIF" (-1/2) Limitation on the cost of the Multipower 'pool', the way you can define a VPP Gadget Pool's Control Cost as being "At least IIF" (-1/4) but still create things in the pool that have a bigger than IFF Focus Limitation, in order to bring down the cost of the Multipower a bit. The reason I decided not to suggest it is that putting a Skill in a Framework is something that's going to raise some eyebrows as it is, and I didn't want to compound the "sin" by suggestion what may be seen as "cheese on top of cheese", if you follow me.

 

But I'm including the thought here, rather than in the post above, just for "completeness of thought process" sake.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Dr. Anomaly.... That is truly inspired!!!

 

I Love it!!!

 

Your solution takes into consideration all of my color needs and adheres to the rules! And the cost is manageable and in almost in line with Base labs. I can even expand the idea to include several new slots as Bastion gains experience and grows as a scientist.

 

I'm going to take a long look at this option... I wonder, what about the same concept in the form of a VVP? The versatility of the VVP would allow for different "projects" and "research" to be happening within the lab at different times.

 

BTW: I think I'll change the 16- Electronics skill roll to a 16- Quantum Physics roll since its the manipulation of the chromodynamic field that will change the lab's size (although Electronics would do almost as well - I just don't see the average EE being able to decipher the in's and out's of the lab's operation).

 

Big ups to everyone that's helped!!!!!!!

I knew I could count on you guys.

[Helimar]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

I hate to bring this up, but it was the first thing I thought of as a problem with building it as a vehicle, and building it as a focus has the same problem... What about all the shaking, rattling, and rolling the 'lab' goes through during just a jog through a park, let alone a knock-down/drag-out fight?? You need some way to inertially dampen the contents or you are gonna have one HECK of a mess the next time you try to use it, god forbid you're shrunken and inside it when someone else picks it up and runs with it... The X-dim movement/summon is the only way I've seen that would get around this.

 

Oh, and technically the multipower isn't actually within the rules, because as Dr. A said, you can't put skills in frameworks. Not that I don't think it's a good solution, it is, very cost effective too, probably TOO cost effective for most scientists with more than two skills, we just have to deal with the splattered contents syndrome

 

Helimar

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

I hate to bring this up, but it was the first thing I thought of as a problem with building it as a vehicle, and building it as a focus has the same problem... What about all the shaking, rattling, and rolling the 'lab' goes through during just a jog through a park, let alone a knock-down/drag-out fight?? You need some way to inertially dampen the contents or you are gonna have one HECK of a mess the next time you try to use it, god forbid you're shrunken and inside it when someone else picks it up and runs with it... The X-dim movement/summon is the only way I've seen that would get around this.

 

Oh, and technically the multipower isn't actually within the rules, because as Dr. A said, you can't put skills in frameworks. Not that I don't think it's a good solution, it is, very cost effective too, probably TOO cost effective for most scientists with more than two skills, we just have to deal with the splattered contents syndrome

 

Helimar

As are as the shaking & rattling around goes...it's a comic book-style device. They don't usually worry about it in the comic books unless it's for "dramatic license", so my inclination would be to do the same.

 

As far as Skills in a Framework...actually, yes you can have them in a Framework, it just requires GM permission. (Skills, when purchased as a Power, are classified as a "Special" Power, and Special Powers can go into a Framework, if the GM permits it. Obviously that's between GoldenAge and his GM. )

 

And thanks for the compliment, GA!

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

I hate to bring this up, but it was the first thing I thought of as a problem with building it as a vehicle, and building it as a focus has the same problem... What about all the shaking, rattling, and rolling the 'lab' goes through during just a jog through a park, let alone a knock-down/drag-out fight?? You need some way to inertially dampen the contents or you are gonna have one HECK of a mess the next time you try to use it, god forbid you're shrunken and inside it when someone else picks it up and runs with it... The X-dim movement/summon is the only way I've seen that would get around this.

 

Oh, and technically the multipower isn't actually within the rules, because as Dr. A said, you can't put skills in frameworks. Not that I don't think it's a good solution, it is, very cost effective too, probably TOO cost effective for most scientists with more than two skills, we just have to deal with the splattered contents syndrome

 

Helimar

 

That shaky smiley face was hilarious!!!

 

While I agree with Dr. A, and am sure my GM would consider the shaking problem a comicbook oversight, I do want to hold true to reality (heh, as much as possible).

 

The shaking you're talking about happens on the same level as you or I exist. Once you enter the quantum arena all bets are off. Now, I understand that something the size of a marble is hardly small enough to be considered on the quantum level but the field that is holding it at that size IS based on the manipulation of the quantum strong forces that hold all atoms together. That being said you could imagine that no amount of shaking (on our level) could disturb the lab.

However, in light of the shaking theory I'll be sure to add to the description of the lab that all equipment and devices be specially stored in shock-resistant compartments before relocation occurs.

 

That’s fun stuff. I love the little details (heh, I said little). They can really add to the fun and drama of a game.

 

Thanks!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

BTW: I think I'll change the 16- Electronics skill roll to a 16- Quantum Physics roll since its the manipulation of the chromodynamic field that will change the lab's size (although Electronics would do almost as well - I just don't see the average EE being able to decipher the in's and out's of the lab's operation).

Of course. I merely chose "Electronics" as an example, and the point cost works out the same for any 3/2 Skill. If you use a 2/1 or 3/1 Skill, like a Science or Knowledge, then the price is going to be a bit cheaper. Personally, if I were building it for me, I'd build it at the cost of some 3/2 Skill, and then I could add slots later for 2/1 or 3/1 Skills and not worry in the slightest about going over the pool cost. If it were designed in the first place for a 2/1 or 3/1 Skill, then any slots added for 3/2 Skills would be much more restricted in how high the Skill roll could be.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Help me build a shrinkable lab

 

Of course. I merely chose "Electronics" as an example' date=' and the point cost works out the same for any 3/2 Skill. If you use a 2/1 or 3/1 Skill, like a Science or Knowledge, then the price is going to be a bit cheaper. Personally, if I were building it for me, I'd build it at the cost of some 3/2 Skill, and then I could add slots later for 2/1 or 3/1 Skills and not worry in the slightest about going over the pool cost. If it were designed in the first place for a 2/1 or 3/1 Skill, then any slots added for 3/2 Skills would be much more restricted in how high the Skill roll could be. [/quote']

 

Agreed!