Question about the "spirit" of an EC

[Jaxom]

I'm playing with developing a suit of power armor. I think that the mechanism I am going to use is a Multipower but I was looking at the rules for both MPs and ECs last night and a question hit me.

 

Sadly, this is a metaphysical question so I am not sure that there will be a clear-cut answer so I was hesitant to ask... That said, I will don my fireproof Superman underoos now...

 

What is the spirit of the statement that all powers in an EC should cost endurence? My goal was to model all the "auras" that the power armor could present... A Forcefield, an Invisibility Field, a point-blank Electrical Burst (probably an EB plus a Change Environment although I need to chat with my GM about what he really wants for the desired effect). It dawned on me that some of the things I might eventually list would probably be constant powers under normal circumstances and that what I would really want to do is buy them with Costs Endurence...

 

Would going that route violate the spirit of the EC construct or is that specifically the intent of the requirement?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

My take on the "spirit" of an EC slot costing END is this...in a Multipower, you generally are able to use only 1 or 2 slots at the same time. In an EC, you can use all the slots simultaneously. In order to keep some semblance of game balance (in other words, some kind of restraining factor) on an EC, the slots need to cost END so you can't use them all, all the time, indefinitely.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

The spirit of the rule is so that players don't purchase several cheap items in an EC mearly to get the point break. It's to prevent a Super Senses EC full of different enhanced senses or a Super Resistant EC full of power, flash, mental, and resistant defenses.

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

I also forgot to ask something I didn't see addressed in 5E... Can you add an END reserve to an EC (I thought that I had seen this mentioned) and if you do then is it taken external to the ED (i.e. without the point break) as a battery for the EC?

[garou]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Of course, you also have master villains (like Firewing) with a whole slew of 0 End powers in an EC.

 

Some character concepts are difficult to build without resorting to an EC - anyone with a body of stone (so full life support, armor, density increase, strength) is almost impossible in 450 points. (Same for undead with full life support.)

 

IMO, it's a judgement call, based on concept, the actual abilities in the EC, the player, and the campaign.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

I also forgot to ask something I didn't see addressed in 5E... Can you add an END reserve to an EC (I thought that I had seen this mentioned) and if you do then is it taken external to the ED (i.e. without the point break) as a battery for the EC?

No, you can't put an end reserve in an EC because it doesn't use end itself.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Of course, you also have master villains (like Firewing) with a whole slew of 0 End powers in an EC.

 

Some character concepts are difficult to build without resorting to an EC - anyone with a body of stone (so full life support, armor, density increase, strength) is almost impossible in 450 points. (Same for undead with full life support.)

 

IMO, it's a judgement call, based on concept, the actual abilities in the EC, the player, and the campaign.

I've build plenty of bricks on 350 points without needing and EC. Yes, full life support is 45 points but it's 45 points for the energy blaster too.

 

And while Firewing does have many powers he has purchased to 0 end in his EC that's not the same as having non-end using powers in an EC. Firewing's force field turns off if he is stunned or knocked out. Grond's damage resistance does not.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

I'm playing with developing a suit of power armor. I think that the mechanism I am going to use is a Multipower but I was looking at the rules for both MPs and ECs last night and a question hit me.

 

Sadly, this is a metaphysical question so I am not sure that there will be a clear-cut answer so I was hesitant to ask... That said, I will don my fireproof Superman underoos now...

 

What is the spirit of the statement that all powers in an EC should cost endurence? My goal was to model all the "auras" that the power armor could present... A Forcefield, an Invisibility Field, a point-blank Electrical Burst (probably an EB plus a Change Environment although I need to chat with my GM about what he really wants for the desired effect). It dawned on me that some of the things I might eventually list would probably be constant powers under normal circumstances and that what I would really want to do is buy them with Costs Endurence...

 

Would going that route violate the spirit of the EC construct or is that specifically the intent of the requirement?

 

 

That got a little convoluted towards the end, but I think what you are asking is:

 

Is taking Costs END on powers so that they can be put into an EC kosher?

 

and the answer is Yes, its perfectly legal and above board

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

I also forgot to ask something I didn't see addressed in 5E... Can you add an END reserve to an EC

Not typically, no. However, END Reserves are already pretty cheap, so its not particularly advantageous to do so anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

One more time for posterity:

 

The "All Powers in an EC Must Cost End is an arbitrarty rule which, in my opinion, should be scrapped."

 

If you have a power that, by default, costs no END, you can place it in an EC if you make it "Costs END". If a power, by default, costs END, you are permitted to buy it down to 0 END and place it in an EC. But, if the power does not cost END as a default, and you want it to not cost END, you can't put it in an EC.

 

So you cannot purchase "armor" for your EC, but you can buy a Force Field that costs 0 END, and define it as looking like a suit of armor.

 

You can buy healing and reduce END to nil, but you can't have Aid that costs no END, because it costs no END by default.

 

If there were some rhyme or reason to which powers cost END and which do not, perhaps that logic could be extended to a restriction on EC's. There is, unfortunately, no such rhyme or reason to which powers cost END as a default.

 

The spirit of the rule is so that players don't purchase several cheap items in an EC mearly to get the point break. It's to prevent a Super Senses EC full of different enhanced senses or a Super Resistant EC full of power' date=' flash, mental, and resistant defenses.[/quote']

 

But I can put all of these in an EC if I add the "costs END" limitation. I can then buy an END battery with the point savings, if I wish to do so. Let'c compare, assuming 5 powers costing 15 points each. as a baseline:

 

I can buy them individually - 5 x 15 = 75 points

 

I can get special GM permission to put them in an EC:

 

EC base cost of 7 points + 8 per slot = 47 points.

 

I can make them all Cost END and put them in an EC:

 

Base cost 7 + (15 - 7)/1.5 = 5 points per slot = 32 points

 

I can now purchase a 50 point END reserve with a 10 recovery for the 15 points I saved. That will run those micro powers for a couple of full turns, all on at once. I could make the battery 140, with 1 recovery, and be able to run for much longer, at the cost of a greater need for down time. Same basic effect.

 

The sensory array in a suit of powered armor could easily fit the above description (albeit with a further limitation for the armor).

 

And while Firewing does have many powers he has purchased to 0 end in his EC that's not the same as having non-end using powers in an EC. Firewing's force field turns off if he is stunned or knocked out. Grond's damage resistance does not.

 

Nothing prevents Firewing making his Force Field Persistent as well, although this carries a cost increase. And his Flight isn't likely to be used when he's stunned or unconscious, so making it 0 END is quite adequate.

 

 

I don't buy this. The multipower and EC are costed differently. That cost variance should set the differing utility between EC and Multipower.

 

As well, you already can't use two attack powers in either framework at the same time, another arbitrary rule that makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

Generally, the issue of "it's too cheap if you can put it in a framework" rings hollow, in my opinion. If that's the case, the same power is too cheap for characters who don't have frameworks, or games (like Turakiian Age) where frameworks are not used. Alternatively, the problem is that the framework provides an excessive discount overall, in which case both END-using and non-END using powers are problematic.

[garou]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

I've build plenty of bricks on 350 points without needing and EC. Yes, full life support is 45 points but it's 45 points for the energy blaster too.

 

And while Firewing does have many powers he has purchased to 0 end in his EC that's not the same as having non-end using powers in an EC. Firewing's force field turns off if he is stunned or knocked out. Grond's damage resistance does not.

Full LS is 50.

 

And I'll admit to being stuck on a brick right now. I am trying to build a 450 pt (300 base +150 disads) brick. Concept is Avatar of Ptah - he's basically an animated statue. If I have full LS (which makes sense), Armor, some form of healing, and decent Str (and other stats), I have almost nothing else. Or, I can scrap the concept, make a character I hate, but is considerably more effective in combat.

 

It leads to my one main problem with hero - certain concepts which express well in GURPS don't lend themselves well to a Hero game. At least, not without a GM who is willing to allow for exceptions regarding things like Naked Advantages in a Multipower.

 

Edit: If I wrap at least the LS, low-grade healing and armor into an EC, then it works. Considering that he winds up being less tough than some of the other PCs, this really ought to be more of a GM call than anything else.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Full LS is 50.

 

This seems to be a common point of confusion because the books refer to "full life support" at 45 points pretty often. That 45 points buys everything but Immune to Aging. If you want the full package, it is indeed 50 points.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Full LS is 50.

 

And I'll admit to being stuck on a brick right now. I am trying to build a 450 pt (300 base +150 disads) brick. Concept is Avatar of Ptah - he's basically an animated statue. If I have full LS (which makes sense), Armor, some form of healing, and decent Str (and other stats), I have almost nothing else. Or, I can scrap the concept, make a character I hate, but is considerably more effective in combat.

 

It leads to my one main problem with hero - certain concepts which express well in GURPS don't lend themselves well to a Hero game. At least, not without a GM who is willing to allow for exceptions regarding things like Naked Advantages in a Multipower.

 

Edit: If I wrap at least the LS, low-grade healing and armor into an EC, then it works. Considering that he winds up being less tough than some of the other PCs, this really ought to be more of a GM call than anything else.

70 strength: 60 points.

35 constitution: 50 points.

35 pd: 21 points.

35 ed: 28 points.

FLS: 50 points.

damage resistance: 35 points.

5d6 healing, 2x end: 33 points.

-10" KB: 20 points.

 

Total cost: 297 points. Leaving 158 for everything else [20 dex, 5 speed, 15 body: 60 points. All other Cha figured leaving 98 points for INT/EGO/skills/talents/perks].

[garou]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

MitchellS - yeah, I tried that (well, similar). Then I added the denisity increase, an attack MP (for some brick tricks), and a movement power, and had no skills.

 

(NB - the attack MP and the movement both cost about 75 together, which is really pretty small).

 

I'm thinking that I am going to scrap the concept entirely, pending a discussion with the GM.

[Helimar]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

There's no reason the DI, Movement power, and even some attacks couldn't go in an EC, they all cost End. To be honest if you have NO limitations except on the Healing, you're doing pretty darn well, just with what you've got there. If you can come up with even -1/4 of common advantage to most of your powers based on your theme (only when serving the god's purposes LEAPS to mind, and that's actually -1/2), you can do very well. If the GM doesn't think the god will be that limiting, he can reduce it to -1/4 and you still come out smelling like a rose...

 

Helimar

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

As has been recorded elsewhere I am naturally suspicious of all power frameworks.

 

Having said that I can see no real justification (for the reasons Hugh gives) for requiring all powers in an EC to cost END. There is probably good grounds for requiring that all powers in an EC should be non-persistent - so all END using powers, and any non-END using powers you buy with that limitation.

 

Can I also mention that I am usually happy to let someone get away with 'END to activate' to get around this in many cases. The most obvious example is rubber boy wanting 50% physical damage resistance in an EC. Sounds fair enough to me. it is clearly a power directly related to his ability to mave his body stretch and deform, just like his stretching, running, shapeshift and swinging. Of course when he is unconscious he snaps back to normal....

 

This may be harder to justify in a SUIT of armour: why should the powers turn off when the wearer is unconscious?

 

I have no idea.

[garou]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

There's no reason the DI, Movement power, and even some attacks couldn't go in an EC, they all cost End. To be honest if you have NO limitations except on the Healing, you're doing pretty darn well, just with what you've got there. If you can come up with even -1/4 of common advantage to most of your powers based on your theme (only when serving the god's purposes LEAPS to mind, and that's actually -1/2), you can do very well. If the GM doesn't think the god will be that limiting, he can reduce it to -1/4 and you still come out smelling like a rose...

 

Helimar

Actually, if I put the DI, movement powers and the attacks into the EC, they get more expensive. It's a very cheap multipower, and if I want an EC higher than 5 or 10 points, it just hasn't been working.

 

Most of the powers do have some hefty disads (and I would have "Only when serving the god's purpose", -1/4, if I could find a good, definitive write-up on Ptah. I've found some things, but not enough that I feel comfortable taking the limitation.)

 

And the other reason that the DI isn't in the EC - it's only a couple levels. I have a real problem with 1+ ton characters walking around normal offices and houses without causing structural issues - I know that my house could not take 800 kilos in the space of the average footprint.

[Zed-F]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Why don't you post the character and the campaign guidelines, and we can make more definitive suggestions?

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Well, it was, for the most part a philosophical question which arose while reading the rulebook. Because I specifically want some SFX that fit better with the Multipower I figure all the subsystems of the suit are going to wind up in Multipowers instead.

 

The proposed campaign is High Powered Superheroic. 300 + up to 150. Active caps at 90 points.

 

There were a couple of systems that seemed obvious to me... The main weapon system (a laser built into the right gauntlet) is a multipower (90 point base) with variable applications. All are no visible power effect. It's either RKA or HKA (laser claws) or a cutting torch. The sensor package is a multipower (probably 15 point base) which includes the ability to turn on, in various combinations, IR, UV, Radar, Hearing as a targetting sense, magnification and flash defenses on both sight and hearing.

 

The one that made me wonder was the suit defenses. Actually, I'm redefining that to be "field effects generated by the suit". This is mostly defenses (forcefields) but also includes a point blank field taser (EB explosion), and invisibility. The question specifically struck me when I was thinking about putting things like Mental and Power defenses into this construct. In hindsight I think a multipower is the right way to do this, but the question was enough to make me ask here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Well, it was, for the most part a philosophical question which arose while reading the rulebook. Because I specifically want some SFX that fit better with the Multipower I figure all the subsystems of the suit are going to wind up in Multipowers instead.

 

The proposed campaign is High Powered Superheroic. 300 + up to 150. Active caps at 90 points.

 

There were a couple of systems that seemed obvious to me... The main weapon system (a laser built into the right gauntlet) is a multipower (90 point base) with variable applications. All are no visible power effect. It's either RKA or HKA (laser claws) or a cutting torch. The sensor package is a multipower (probably 15 point base) which includes the ability to turn on, in various combinations, IR, UV, Radar, Hearing as a targetting sense, magnification and flash defenses on both sight and hearing.

 

The one that made me wonder was the suit defenses. Actually, I'm redefining that to be "field effects generated by the suit". This is mostly defenses (forcefields) but also includes a point blank field taser (EB explosion), and invisibility. The question specifically struck me when I was thinking about putting things like Mental and Power defenses into this construct. In hindsight I think a multipower is the right way to do this, but the question was enough to make me ask here.

 

 

 

...er, about that 'senses' multipower......

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

................

 

The one that made me wonder was the suit defenses. Actually, I'm redefining that to be "field effects generated by the suit". This is mostly defenses (forcefields) but also includes a point blank field taser (EB explosion), and invisibility. The question specifically struck me when I was thinking about putting things like Mental and Power defenses into this construct. In hindsight I think a multipower is the right way to do this, but the question was enough to make me ask here.

 

The thing about a defensive MP is you either need a big pool - twice or more the size of a slot OR you need to accept that you can't do more than one at once. I mean, for example, you can't be invisible AND covered by a force field. With an EC you can. More up front cost, more versatility.

 

I am not going anywhere near the justification for having such disparate powers IN an EC. That is between you and your conscience

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

...er' date=' about that 'senses' multipower......[/quote']

 

What does that mean? (Seriously, is there some reason you'd be concerned about it? Something I am clearly not thinking of?)

 

This one I felt pretty sure about since everything is OIF (power armor) the prices per are 3-9 CP essentially. That means I can do 1000x Magnified IR and a few points of flash defense at a time. Since it's all different combinations of optics that get swapped out that works real well for me. Certainly can't run them all at once by intent of design, hence a Multipower. Size of the multipower base is specifically to limit which powers can stack with one another (e.g. can't magnify the radar).

 

I agree with the questionable nature of the "EC" interpretation of the defensive fields. The logical argument for making it an EC would be that these are "the collection of fields that the armor can emit" but that's almost like saying "this is the collection of gadgets" which is a clear sign you should be in a Multipower anyway. It's not particularly relevant to the question anyway since everything that the suit can emit is being taken as a FF effect (where possible) so it wouldn't include anything that was Constant or Inherent anyway. It was just where I was when the question at the top of the thread hit me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

What does that mean? (Seriously' date=' is there some reason you'd be concerned about it? Something I am clearly not thinking of?)[/quote']

Enhanced senses are considered to be Special Powers and as such are not supposed to be put into power frameworks. This goes back to what I said about about ECs and not trying to buy inexpensive powers inside of frameworks to save more points.

[garou]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

Enhanced senses are a special power, and, as such, cannot be placed in a power framework withou the permission of the GM (IIRC).

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about the "spirit" of an EC

 

The thing about a defensive MP is you either need a big pool - twice or more the size of a slot OR you need to accept that you can't do more than one at once. I mean' date=' for example, you can't be invisible AND covered by a force field. With an EC you can. More up front cost, more versatility.[/quote']

 

Definitely noted. I have not figured out how big a pool I want but my initial intent was to be able to hit campaign caps on PD/ED *or* lower that and have some additional defenses *or* be invisible. I've got to wait until I have settled on the limitations I want to be using and then figure out what the real point costs are so I know what kind of pool size I am aiming for.

 

 

As a side note, has anyone ever tried to build a Federation Starship as one giant Multipower? All I think of when I start playing with Multipowers is someone screaming at Scotty to give him more base points.