Changing HERO - What are the limits?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

The essense of HERO to me is the idea that abilities beyond the norm should be charged for, abilities should be scalable and extendible where possible, each character gets a finite amount of points with which to buy those abilities, and both the ceiling and floor of what is buyable are determined by the GM based upon the setting they are trying to model.

 

Quite a lot can be sheltered under that umbrella and still be essentially HERO System, or at least HERO System inspired to me.

 

Im much more concerned that someone who is going off the reservation realizes that they are doing so and further WHY they are doing so, than the fact that they are doing so.

 

My pet peeve is when people don't understand what the system can do for them as is, and so go off kitbashing some clumsy and unnecessary construct, claiming all the while that the system doesnt do whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. On the otherhand if someone says "I understand that this can be done in X fashion, BUT feel that it improperly models the feel Im going for and so Im handling it in Y fashion", Ive got absolutely no issue with that.

[Mentor]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

While I am generally of the toolkit opinion, there are still limits of definition and whether that is the only question. If I take a hero character to Killer Shrike's or Doc Democracy or Dust Raven and propose it for their game with the PC write up and explanation and they look at me like , "Where did that write up come from?" then I have likely created something other than a Hero character.

 

On the other hand, I may present a character sheet that is simple, elegant and completely book legal and even falling within the power limitations set by the GMs afore mentioned,and they can and should reject it immediately if there is no possibility of integrating the PC into their campaign because of balance orpersonality or power fit.

 

Being official Hero, even within my relatively loose definition, does not equal being appropriate to a campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I suspect most Hero built characters would run in most Hero type games no matter how much the rules had changed (got rid of the speed chart and use something else? Fine, so long as you still use speed in some form). Might affect the EFFECTIVENESS of the charcacters but they would still be playable.

 

OTOH character BUILD changes (like re-costing strength or removing INTELLIGENCE from the character build) WOULD make it almost impossible to carry across between games.

 

So, I'd venture to suggest that changes to the rules of Hero make little difference to whether a game is Hero, but changes to the character building rules would.

 

Now I know some genres (FH for instance) do this anyway, re-costing spells or whatever. To me that makes the characters non-transferable, which makes for problems. Of course re-costing is less of a problem than (say) completely removing characteristics, but it still means we a re playing, in effect, different games.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Transferability of characters is only important if you are doing a cross genre style game, like Rifts, or where characters can skip between dimensions of differing genres like my old Cross Time Continuum campaign.

 

 

I mean how often do you take a Turakian Age character into a Champions Universe campaign or Terran Empire campaign?

 

Not often Im betting.

 

 

The only real importance in the vast majority of scenarios is that characters are built consistently within the CONTEXT of the SETTING they are being used in. As an example using published settings, a character designed to use Valdorian Age rules for Skill Maxima and Magic System is not intended to be ported into a Turakian Age as is, and vice versa. The character creation rules for the two Settings have some different expectations and assumptions and they are not 100% compatible in all cases.

 

Does that mean that one or the other or both are not "HERO"?

 

 

Of course not. They are both HERO. Ability to port a particular character from setting to setting is something a GM can accomplish within their own games if they want, but it's not a design requirement of the HERO System itself. The System has a lot of flexibility in both character design and rules resolution, and trying to crystalize them so that only one implementation is correct is not only not HERO, it is the antithesis of HERO.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And by the way, anyone coming into my campaign with an existing character and expecting to play them as is without any changes to background or build are in for a rude awakening.

 

I don't care what game system, HERO or not, all characters coming into my games are subjected to rigorous review and will be tweaked to suit.

 

If you don't like it you can either make a new character abiding by the same design process all the other PC's went thru, or hit the road.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And by the way, anyone coming into my campaign with an existing character and expecting to play them as is without any changes to background or build are in for a rude awakening.

 

I don't care what game system, HERO or not, all characters coming into my games are subjected to rigorous review and will be tweaked to suit.

 

If you don't like it you can either make a new character abiding by the same design process all the other PC's went thru, or hit the road.

 

OK

[Mentor]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And by the way, anyone coming into my campaign with an existing character and expecting to play them as is without any changes to background or build are in for a rude awakening.

 

I don't care what game system, HERO or not, all characters coming into my games are subjected to rigorous review and will be tweaked to suit.

 

If you don't like it you can either make a new character abiding by the same design process all the other PC's went thru, or hit the road.

Precisely my point. Individual campaigns are so unique that legal Hero construction legality alone is no assurance of acceptability.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Well, OK, I'm not suggesting any of my characters should play in any of your games. What I am suggesting is that if I posted a character anyone familiar with Hero should be able to look at the character sheet and understand it in the context of a Hero character.

 

If the sheet starts off:

 

STR

DEX

CON

INT

EGO

COM

 

and pretty much stops there, I'd say you are probably not playing Hero any more, you are playing something else.....

 

To me many of the actual rules are largely secondary to the character generation process. It is that that largely makes Hero unique. Change that by more than a few points and you are sailing out of Hero waters.

 

Now I'll be round next Tuesday to play and you don't even get to see the character DURING the game let alone review it beforehand....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Well, HERO Stats have this thing called a "DEFAULT VALUE", so if for some reason someone posted a character excluding certain attributes, assume they are defaulted if you want to use them in your game.

 

If they've added some characteristics, then just find out what they are for and decide if you can ignore them or want to proxy them if for some reason you wanted to use them for your game.

 

It really isnt that big of a deal. As you say many of the elements of rules resolution are decoupled or abstracted away from character design.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And by the way, anyone coming into my campaign with an existing character and expecting to play them as is without any changes to background or build are in for a rude awakening.

 

I don't care what game system, HERO or not, all characters coming into my games are subjected to rigorous review and will be tweaked to suit.

 

If you don't like it you can either make a new character abiding by the same design process all the other PC's went thru, or hit the road.

You just became one of my hero's, I wish all GMs thought like that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I mean how often do you take a Turakian Age character into a Champions Universe campaign or Terran Empire campaign?

 

And if you are doing so, you simply triple the cost of his spells to get a comparable character. Not too tough.

 

Characters moving between games in the same genre may not play well if the ground rules don't line up (eg. move a 12 DC attacker from a game with a 12 DC damage cap into a game where the average is 16 DC, and his role is completely changed).

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I have played Hero from the time it started out as Champion's. I can't see anything that drops the stat's as they are, adds new ones, modifies old ones, as Hero.

I think that 'house rules' are good and I use them, but I DO NOT!!, drop the way a C is made or how the system is designed to do. I play Hero because that it is the way is designed.

I make heroes that I couldn't make in another game system. I could do a C that was a SuperHero in d20, but it would have a different feel to it. The C's wouldn't be the way I wanted. I've played Marvel and DC, and even the heroes from the Rift system. All of them can be fun and have been, but I always come back to Hero.

I like that given the points you can make any hero from comics, any character from any movie, any setting. That's why to me Hero is not a toolkit but a system that unlike d20, doesn't require you to own alot of books to do a C. All you need is the main book and a good mind, and good friends to help you do them.

I tried the Fuzion version of Hero and didn't like it. To me it wasn't the Hero system that I knew, it wasn't, plus it had ways of doing things that to me made it a bad remake of a great movie.

I think that Hero to be Hero, needs to stay as close to what it is now. I could see changes in how things are done, calculation of everything from CV, DCV, ECV, and skills. BUT even if you do that it has to still have the basic overall feel.

What I mean about 'feel' is that Hero allows just what a GN needs to do the game, no matter the type of game you wanted to play.

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And by the way, anyone coming into my campaign with an existing character and expecting to play them as is without any changes to background or build are in for a rude awakening.

 

I don't care what game system, HERO or not, all characters coming into my games are subjected to rigorous review and will be tweaked to suit.

 

If you don't like it you can either make a new character abiding by the same design process all the other PC's went thru, or hit the road.

That was going to be my comment exactly. I never have and never will allow any player to just wander up with a character. Virtually every game has its house rules after all. HERO is even more significant, because of variable limitations where value is entirely down to GM discretion. It strikes me that there is only a marginal difference between "Not usable in strong magnetic fields, -1/2 in Sci-Fi game, -0 in Fantasy game" and "In this game STR costs 2 points per point because it's increased utility" and "In this game PRE and EGO into a single characteristic because it's genre convention that strong-willed and charisma go hand-in-hand".

 

After all, doubling the cost of STR is just a +1 Variable Limitation because the style of game means that STR is twice as effective as it might otherwise be, while the PRE/EGO example is just applying a -1 Limitation to each for reduced utility and dropping in a -0 Linked limitation. HERO is actively designed for just this sort of thing. It's not tinkering, it's good GMing!

 

A classic example of why HERO is a tool kit. A classic example of why characters aren't and shouldn't be transferable. A classic example of how what may appear not to be HERO in fact *is*: book legal, justifiable and all, but perhaps not presented in a way where you can see the inner workings. Which for many players in my experience is not a bad thing!

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Precisely my point. Individual campaigns are so unique that legal Hero construction legality alone is no assurance of acceptability.

All of which reminds me of a rather heated thread recently around this very point!

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=842286&postcount=1

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I think that Hero to be Hero' date=' needs to stay as close to what it is now. I could see changes in how things are done, calculation of everything from CV, DCV, ECV, and skills. BUT even if you do that it has to still have the basic overall feel.[/quote']

 

To me that is the problem. When I play a sci-fi game I want the feel to be the fell I want for that game - I don't want it to feel like Hero in gameplay I want it to feel like my campaign.

 

I like the Hero system because it allows me to change the feel dependent upon which campaign I decide to run for my players.

 

I am currently designing a Gloranthe Hero game for my group. When I play that with them I want a Gloranthan feel to the game, not a Hero one. When I later decide to do Star Wars, or Babylon 5 then I want those feels - I don't want a Hero carryover between those games.

 

Now. I use Hero for them all because there will be basic assumptions about gameplay that carry over between the games that should help people get up to speed in playing but that should have nothing to do with the feel of the game except that it should remove mechanics from the equation and allow people to interact with my campaign.

 

In my view it is like a good soccer referee. If he's really good then you barely realise that he's on the pitch. If he's bad then you notice the referee as much as you notice the players playing the game.

 

 

Doc

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

In my view it is like a good soccer referee. If he's really good then you barely realise that he's on the pitch. If he's bad then you notice the referee as much as you notice the players playing the game.

Doc

 

Bah! Don't pander to them! It's football, man, football. A game where you kick a ball repeatedly with your foot, rather than pick it up and run around with it, which is surely Handball. Or Carryball. Or perhaps Majorimpactfollowedbyphysicaltraumaball.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Bah! Don't pander to them! It's football' date=' man, football. A game where you kick a ball repeatedly with your foot, rather than pick it up and run around with it, which is surely Handball. Or Carryball. Or perhaps Majorimpactfollowedbyphysicaltraumaball.[/quote']

 

I understand the point Phil but I was aiming for a broad understanding rather than trying to emphasise cultural differences!

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I like the Hero system because it allows me to change the feel dependent upon which campaign I decide to run for my players.

 

I am currently designing a Gloranthe Hero game for my group. When I play that with them I want a Gloranthan feel to the game, not a Hero one. When I later decide to do Star Wars, or Babylon 5 then I want those feels - I don't want a Hero carryover between those games.

 

Now. I use Hero for them all because there will be basic assumptions about gameplay that carry over between the games that should help people get up to speed in playing but that should have nothing to do with the feel of the game except that it should remove mechanics from the equation and allow people to interact with my campaign.

 

Doc

 

Doc, I didn't explain the meaning of feel as well as I should. I was hoping to say what you said, that Hero being used as the means to make the game what ever you wanted it to be. The feel I ment was the basic way you do things, the way the rules are basically the same from game to game so it's easy for the player to play, as well as GM to GM.

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Doc' date=' I didn't explain the meaning of feel as well as I should. I was hoping to say what you said, that Hero being used as the means to make the game what ever you wanted it to be. The feel I ment was the basic way you do things, the way the rules are basically the same from game to game so it's easy for the player to play, as well as GM to GM.[/quote']

 

I think that's actually quite a different thing to what you originally said. Here's a high-level list of the changes in my fantasy game:

• all chars cost the same, 2 points per point
  
• added Agility
  
• removed Ego
  
• added Perception
  
• rename Intelligence to Lore
  
• removed figured characteristics except for Stun which is Bod+Con/2+Pre/2
  
• removed ED, renamed PD 'Toughness'
  
• removed REC and END
  
• Skills arent 9+Char/5, they're Skill-level+Char/3+Char/3+Char3 over target number (could be 3 different chars, could be just 1. A la Rolemaster)
  
• added huge number of skills under broad skill categories. Skill categories cost 3 points per 'level', skills cost 1 point per level. No skill levels in a Skill Category gives -3 to all attempts to use that skill.
  
• No OCV, instead have Melee Combat, Unarmed Combat and Ranged Combat Skill Categories, with subskills for broad weapon groups. Costs are 5 point for Skill categories, 3 points for skills (i.e. same as for CSLs)
  
• No DCV, instead Combat Defence skill category with Ranged and Melee defence, at 5 and 3 points cost again.
  
• STR doesnt add to weapon damage. Instead it adds to chance to hit, damage is then Base+ amount determined by degree of success
  

Looks very different to HERO doesnt it? But actually it isnt. All I've done is changed a few numbers, added a few more skills, removed characteristics that have no bearing to the game and changed the superficial appearance of things. But, as you say, the rules of my game will be "basically the same" - infact, more than that, they'll be the HERO rules to the letter. I'll be using HERO perception modifiers (scaled to the fact that skills are now effectively Char/1 not Char/5), I'll be using all the combat rules, I'm using Speed (though not the Spd chart as such, seems a bit pointless when SPD is either 2,3,4 or 5), I'm using hit locations, I'm using environmental damage. I'm even using Presence attacks. All of the interactions in the system will be exactly as HERO, but the numbers are on a different scale, Skills are more important than Chars, and you're rolling over not under.

 

Under your new definition, my game is definitely Hero, because the rules are "basically the same". Under your old definition, my game is as unHERO as its possible to be!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Got a web site for that campaign Phil?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Got a web site for that campaign Phil?

 

Right now its hot air and a spreadsheet!

 

He's frantically trying to put the campaign together before we want him to run a game for us...

 

Looks interesting though - we're all itching to play in early Middle Earth.

 

 

Doc

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Right now its hot air and a spreadsheet!

And a little notebook. You don't know about the little notebook

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

And a little notebook. You don't know about the little notebook

 

 

Get back to work man - if you don't have time to lunch until next Friday you definitely dont have time to be on these boards!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Phil's example is something I think would be really cool... and I would never fight over "is it Hero or just inspired by Hero"... but too my mind, it would be "Utilizing Hero concepts" and not really Hero...

 

... and this is because of the "feel" element. I believe Hero does have a unique feel to it, and to Docs point, I don't always want that feel in my games. Most of the time, yes, but fantasy is one where the "magic system" elements have never worked... unless they become quite a bit divorced from Hero.

 

I do think we need to recognize that something like "dropping ED and changing PD to Toughness" is no small thing. Analytically, in a deconstructionist way, sure... no big deal... but that is NOT the game... the game is in play... where tossing about "How tough are you" is VERY VERY VERY different than asking, "What is your PD?"

 

To say that "Toughness is like PD" is not the same thing as saying, "Toughness is PD" because in this case, it is not, since it works vs. Energy as well (assuming). It is a new system, for a new game... based on Hero... and may or may not be easier to learn for a Hero expert. I would rather the game be presented on it's own merits, rather than try to be sold to me as "a Hero game." I would come with too many ingrained expectations with a "Hero" label on it, that an "Early Middle Earth game" with a point build character system... ok then, I'm up for that!

 

I would have to say that "feel" really is the key point, and to be able to "feel" differently about a play experience requires new language, new thought processes, new decision making methods... and therefore becomes "not Hero for me.

 

But this is a good thing. I really like "Hero" and the way it feels for many games (Supers, guns & grit, martial arts, swashbuckling, etc.) and will use it with only a set of house rulles for that. Other things, where I think you need to build "based on Hero, but all new" is just fine as well... but it has crossed a line for me... a line I'm not sure I've crossed until I play the game and it "feels" different than Hero.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Categorically disagree w/ RDU's last post.

 

I think it really seems to come down to mindsets. Mechanics can look at a Malibu and a Grand Am and understand that they're really the same basic car underneath all the cosmetics. Some other people are more surface oriented and think they're two different cars.