Changing HERO - What are the limits?

[DeadlyUematsu]

After reading the design considerations thread, I am interested in what people think are exactly the limits for changing HERO (before it becomes a better idea of finding another game or making one from scratch)?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I'm just curious---

 

why should there be limits? Everyone tailors to some degree; who's to say when I have gone to far to serve the needs of my group?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I think that if you decide you need a system that doesn't use a point system, you have stepped beyond the edge of Hero Games.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I think that if you decide you need a system that doesn't use a point system' date=' you have stepped beyond the edge of Hero Games.[/quote']While I think this is a pretty good indicator you've wandered off the Hero reservation, it's probably not the only one. Other likely candidates I can think of offhand might include totally scrapping the Speed Chart for an initiative roll or changing to a percentile system for combat and/or Skills. Dumping/amalgamating several Characteristics seems another probable indicator you've wandered away from core Hero.

[Storn]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

While I think this is a pretty good indicator you've wandered off the Hero reservation' date=' it's probably not the only one. Other likely candidates I can think of offhand might include totally scrapping the Speed Chart for an initiative roll or changing to a percentile system for combat and/or Skills. Dumping/amalgamating several Characteristics seems another probable indicator you've wandered away from core Hero.[/quote']

 

 

Here is my break pt. When you can no longer use the character stat blocks as written, it is no longer Hero.

 

We've done away with the Speed chart and modified End rules. However, those stats are intact, in play and are very much relevant.

 

Doing away with the speed chart is not wandering off the reservation... because one can easily play Hero if EVERYONE is a 3 speed. Or 10 speed, that is just different point costs.

 

If Dex is 4 pts or 2 pts, it matters to Chargen... but in play, Dex is stil Dex and still influences the same things.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

To me, as long as everything that changed can be book legal (but you make it free or have it be a transparent rule) by the core rules.

 

Dropped the Speed chart, but everyone gets to act 3 or 4 times then gets a recovery.... that is just everyone has a 3 or 4 speed, with the speed chart being invisible.

 

Have a dice based init - everyone has a +/- dex, init only - variable effect.

 

As long as the changes could be "reverse engineered" to a legal power of some sort, then that is still HERO to me. Although removing a characterristic or two, and or adding one or two would likely still fall under my umbrella, even though it doesn't fit my above description - I like Storns "if you can read the statblock" idea there.

[atlascott]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I like the distinction between randomly generated versus built characters, and really, I find that building characters is the heart of the HERO system. Other than a random superhero generator found in Champions III (I think), I do not know how you'd do random character gen in HERO (given all the different genres) and still call it Hero.

 

I think a game is still powered by hero if it uses most of the stats and powers to describe game action. Who cares if some group threw out END, if they are still using CV's and 3d6 to hit? I think throwing out the speed chart per se is advisable--its cumbersome.

 

I guess I'd say that if a system uses HERO rules, it is powered by HERO, even if it modifies quite a bit to fit genre conventions or players' preferences. HERO is a toolkit, after all. Even a character sheet that bears no resemblance to the HERO stat block is fine, as long as the characters are essentially defined by the HERO system.

[Markdoc]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

To me there are three defining points.

 

The first is if you can simply give another hero player the character sheet and it makes sense to them: that means no really dramatic changes to the basic system

 

The second is if you can discuss your game without needing lots of extra clarification.

 

The third is if you can take a character from one game and move him to another GM's game without making major changes.

 

To take two examples: in my heroic level games I like combat to be chaotic and a little bit scary - so I randomise the SPD chart. That affects the way combat plays out, but it alters nothing on the character sheet: SPD costs the same, and works the same - SPD 4 gets twice as many actions as SPD2 and 2/3 as many as SPD6. It also doesn't affect rules discussions or the relative balance of powers. So a character from my game could move to another FH game without any changes and vice versa.

 

On the other hand, in a recent thread, Zornwill asked for input on a change to damage reduction and almost everyone reacted really negatively until he explained that he had also altered the way damage and defences interacted. At that point, most people responded that it was hard to say what the effect would be, because it was completely out of their experience. I think at that point you've moved to a game based on Hero system, rather than Hero system, because the changes, while not enormous in themselves are cumulative - no other GM could comment meaningfully on any one of them without knowing about the others. That's also going to change chargen - characters viable in that game would not play at all the same way if shifted to another game and vice versa.

 

In the same vein, I regard Turakian age as "based on hero system" rather than a hero system game because magic-using characters in that setting are so divergent from the core rules they would need to be completely altered to move to a non-Turakian game. Valdorian age by contrast is a Hero setting, because although there are many setting specific and chargen rules, all of them are compliant to the core rules or pretty close. The sorcery favour rules are a little divergent but can easily be made compliant to core rules without greatly affecting the way the character plays - indeed, I have done exactly that for my own FH game.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

The break point is when you decide you need to emulate another system to get the feel of the genre you're playing.

 

Hero is not a System Emulator, it's a Genre Emulator.

 

I will allow that games involving new players can make concessions to incorporate the familiar with the unfamiliar - but you should never directly emulate another system. If you are, or are trying, then go to that system.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

To me there are three defining points.

 

The first is if you can simply give another hero player the character sheet and it makes sense to them: that means no really dramatic changes to the basic system

 

The second is if you can discuss your game without needing lots of extra clarification.

 

The third is if you can take a character from one game and move him to another GM's game without making major changes.

 

To take two examples: in my heroic level games I like combat to be chaotic and a little bit scary - so I randomise the SPD chart. That affects the way combat plays out, but it alters nothing on the character sheet: SPD costs the same, and works the same - SPD 4 gets twice as many actions as SPD2 and 2/3 as many as SPD6. It also doesn't affect rules discussions or the relative balance of powers. So a character from my game could move to another FH game without any changes and vice versa.

 

On the other hand, in a recent thread, Zornwill asked for input on a change to damage reduction and almost everyone reacted really negatively until he explained that he had also altered the way damage and defences interacted. At that point, most people responded that it was hard to say what the effect would be, because it was completely out of their experience. I think at that point you've moved to a game based on Hero system, rather than Hero system, because the changes, while not enormous in themselves are cumulative - no other GM could comment meaningfully on any one of them without knowing about the others. That's also going to change chargen - characters viable in that game would not play at all the same way if shifted to another game and vice versa.

 

In the same vein, I regard Turakian age as "based on hero system" rather than a hero system game because magic-using characters in that setting are so divergent from the core rules they would need to be completely altered to move to a non-Turakian game. Valdorian age by contrast is a Hero setting, because although there are many setting specific and chargen rules, all of them are compliant to the core rules or pretty close. The sorcery favour rules are a little divergent but can easily be made compliant to core rules without greatly affecting the way the character plays - indeed, I have done exactly that for my own FH game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

While I get where you are coming from... there is something to be said for the fact that "Based on Hero" is definitively different than "a Hero game." This is highly subjective as to where that line is.

 

In your SPD example... while my game still has a SPD stat that is bought and paid for the same way... I have tossed the SPD chart and the interpretation of that SPD stat is different in game play. I can have 10 SPD characters that don't totally dominate a 6 SPD character... if you were to take those sheets to a game playing strictly "by the book" those two players would have very different game experiences.

 

The concept of a 100% transferable character is a pipe dream. So much of how the stats on a page play out in a game is based on tiny, often unconscious intepretations, perceptions, group dynamics, etc. There is no way to say "This character will work just as well in any Hero game."

 

Granted a Valdorian Age spellcaster needs a lot less "exception explanation" than a Turakian Age spellcaster... but likely it will need some. It is all just a sliding scale of modifications. Two people may agree that one build is "farther from the core" than another... but you'll likely never get two to agree at which point one build crossed the line of "Based on Hero but not Hero."

[RDU Neil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

The break point is when you decide you need to emulate another system to get the feel of the genre you're playing.

 

Hero is not a System Emulator, it's a Genre Emulator.

 

I will allow that games involving new players can make concessions to incorporate the familiar with the unfamiliar - but you should never directly emulate another system. If you are, or are trying, then go to that system.

 

This is a good point. I would add, it is one thing to say, "I want to simulate an attack that never misses" and another to say, "I want to build Magic Missile." It is often hard to determine which side of that line emulation might fall.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

This is a good point. I would add' date=' it is one thing to say, "I want to simulate an attack that never misses" and another to say, "I want to build Magic Missile." It is often hard to determine which side of that line emulation might fall.[/quote']

Here's where I put the line:

Need to convery the spells from DnD to Hero so the players (who have only played DnD) can move from one system to the other? Go for it.

 

Need to rebuild the Spell Level based on Character Level structure? Go back to DnD.

[Markdoc]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

While I get where you are coming from... there is something to be said for the fact that "Based on Hero" is definitively different than "a Hero game." This is highly subjective as to where that line is.

 

In your SPD example... while my game still has a SPD stat that is bought and paid for the same way... I have tossed the SPD chart and the interpretation of that SPD stat is different in game play. I can have 10 SPD characters that don't totally dominate a 6 SPD character... if you were to take those sheets to a game playing strictly "by the book" those two players would have very different game experiences.

 

That's true - but (for argument's sake if nothing else) I would suggest that that's true of any game, even a highly defined one like D&D - as you noted, shifting a character to a new game always leads to some changes since so much is based on shared group experience.

 

I would draw a line (though a slightly fuzzy one) between characters who would have a different game experience, and those that simply cannot translate without being changed.

 

To stick with SPD as an example, your game and mine both have different SPD rules from the core rules, but they both have a SPD stat which costs the same and I presume they both allow the higher SPD character to act more frequently - or something similar. But I played in a game (actually, with Karl, the same GM who earlier had run Ars for us, who I mentioned before) where we had no SPD stat. It turned out to be a frightful idea and we dumped it after a short campaign but those characters could not have been translated to a standard game without significantly changing them (ie: either giving them 20-40 extra points or carving back their other powers/skills/characteristics by the same amount).

 

It's still a grey area, of course, because people will disagree on what's "unplayable" but it works for me as a rule of thumb - and not just for Hero but for any rule system.

 

cheers, Mark

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I don't think dropping the SPD chart breaks it.

 

You could do a Shadowrun type deal where you roll SPD d6 and add DEX. If the highest person has a 36, they go at 36, 26, 16, and 6 giving them four actions. The player that rolls a 27 goes at 27, 17, and 7 getting a total of three actions. Drops the SPD chart and doesn't "kill" the system IMO.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I would say the stuff that has made it through every edition and every game Hero has produced is at least part of Hero's identity, if not essential. The 14 core stats. Skills. Disadvantages, especially the frequency/power paradigm of building them. Base points plus disadvantages. 11+OCV-DCV. Combat maneuvers. Normal damage vs. Killing damage. Physical vs. Energy. Phases. Post-12 recovery. Half-move and attack. I'm sure there are others.

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Personally, I'm going to disagree with pretty much everyone. Because HERO, as described on the cover of the very book itself, is a toolkit. That means, to my mind, anything built with that toolkit is still fundamentally HERO system. Even if it doesn't use all of the tools in the kit, even if the end result couldn't be plugged into someone elses end result and still work. To my mind, HERO is a big long list of rules, and you pick the ones you want and build a game.

 

I'm working up a fantasy game. I've changed most point costs. I've changed the stats. I've changed the char/5 rolls. I've added an awful lot of skills. But all of this has been done using the design principles of HERO. Combat is still fundamentally 3d6, CV and DCV, but you probably wont recognise how it looks because I've completely changed the front end. I've also changed the back-end, because I want a damage system based on Hit roll not a bucket of dice. But the game mechanics underneath it all still chug and churn in pretty much the way that FRED describes, and the end result will still be a range of STUN and BOD damage from x to y, just with a flatter probability curve.

 

To me, the distinction between 'HERO' and 'Based on HERO' is no distinction at all, because the game as written us explicitly meant for tinkering, tweaking, adding and subtracting. The real distinction comes in something like SAS, which is 'Influenced by HERO' - then you're getting into the realms of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes and dodgy movie remakes of 70s TV series!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I'm with Phil. To me Hero is almost a design philosophy and I can use the bits and pieces provided to me in the toolkit to make the game that I want.

 

Now, it is obviously much better for transferability if somewhere there is a character sheet with numbers on it that could be taken to another HERO GM and say "Can I play this character" and he could discuss what would and would not be allowable in his game but (in my mind) not necessarily.

 

I think that Phil's system would need some explanation to HERO GMs but that they would recognise things as HERO based rather than a new game. They would be able to see the origins of the game and they would very quickly adapt and be able to 'play the game' rather than get bogged down with how the system worked (because they already 'know' it).

 

I think it would be nearly impossible to come to a core set of details because you'll always find someone that has changed one element of that core set in their game and still feel that they are playing HERO.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I agree with everyone.

 

Obviously.

 

On the one hand, you've bought the game, you do what you like with it, you are still playing a version of Hero.

 

OTOH, if you do customise your game a lot it is going to be difficult to discuss problems and solutions with (say) the posters to this board - they won't have your game experience.

 

Why I would like to see is some more toolkitting built into the rules. It is there a bit. Pleanty of combat options: let's open that up a little. Why not have an OFFICIAL alternative to the speed chart, some dicussion or even suggestions for alternative pricing strategies and so on.

 

*sigh* Because, Sean, the book would then run to a little over 2000 pages...

 

Yeah, but APART from that....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Why I would like to see is some more toolkitting built into the rules. It is there a bit. Pleanty of combat options: let's open that up a little. Why not have an OFFICIAL alternative to the speed chart, some dicussion or even suggestions for alternative pricing strategies and so on.

 

*sigh* Because, Sean, the book would then run to a little over 2000 pages...

 

Yeah, but APART from that....

 

 

I think that toolkitting is an advanced part of a HERO gamers experience and, as such, have no problems with such a thing being part of the Ultimate line.

 

The Ultimate Toolkit - now that's a book I'd pre-order and buy one or two copies of...

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I think that toolkitting is an advanced part of a HERO gamers experience and, as such, have no problems with such a thing being part of the Ultimate line.

 

The Ultimate Toolkit - now that's a book I'd pre-order and buy one or two copies of...

 

 

Doc

 

 

Now that is an idea and a half.

 

Storming.

[Phil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Damn fine idea. We've got the toolkit, now it's about time Steve published an instruction manual! I'd buy one of those as well, but I'd rather it didn't have the same instructions repeated eight times over in different languages...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Damn fine idea. We've got the toolkit' date=' now it's about time Steve published an instruction manual! I'd buy one of those as well, but I'd rather it didn't have the same instructions repeated eight times over in different languages...[/quote']

Some of them upside down, forcing you to close the book turn it over flip it around and read it again in Spanish.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Damn fine idea. We've got the toolkit' date=' now it's about time Steve published an instruction manual! I'd buy one of those as well, but I'd rather it didn't have the same instructions repeated eight times over in different languages...[/quote']

 

Actually, in a serious note, this begs the question:

 

Is Hero 5th supposed to be the Toolkit or the Instruction Manual? I think this may be part of the confusion, since we are talking about metaphorical tools, not real ones. As written, the current material is not clear... it tries to do both... and it is hard to understand the intent. From a documentation side, we see this in corporate communication. There is a difference between a User Manual and a Training Guide, but people expect them to be the same, or to accomplish both, which makes for confusing, muddled documentation. Hero... understandably for what it is, mixes the tool with the instructions and interpretation (from these boards and such) so that it can be very difficult to tell what is a basic "tool" and what is rule/instruction on how to use that tool.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

Personally' date=' I'm going to disagree with pretty much everyone. Because HERO, as described on the cover of the very book itself, is a toolkit. That means, to my mind, anything built with that toolkit is still fundamentally HERO system. Even if it doesn't use all of the tools in the kit, even if the end result couldn't be plugged into someone elses end result and still work. To my mind, HERO is a big long list of rules, and you pick the ones you want and build a game.[/quote']

 

I'm not with Phil on this one (sorry Phil).

 

The movie Starship Troopers was 'based on' a book of the same name, but as anyone who's watched/read both will tell you, one is not the other. The same goes for a game system. You might be able to say it's based on certain rules, but if you aren't actually using those rules, all they are is "based on" them.

 

I typically draw the line like this: If you are using more house rules than core rules, you are playing a different game and incorperating some Hero System into it. It doesn't really matter what Hero rules you are using, just that if you are using more rules that aren't Hero, you no longer playing Hero.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Changing HERO - What are the limits?

 

I'm not with Phil on this one (sorry Phil).

 

Don't apologise to him - it only makes him feel the need to be more argumentative!

 

The movie Starship Troopers was 'based on' a book of the same name' date=' but as anyone who's watched/read both will tell you, one is not the other. The same goes for a game system. You might be able to say it's based on certain rules, but if you aren't actually using those rules, all they are is "based on" them.[/quote']

 

I typically go for feel. The Starship Troopers film was nothing like the book in terms of plot but I thought it had the right feel. I felt like I was watching something from the same universe as the when I was reading the book. My knowledge of the book made it easy for me to follow the film.

 

In the game I expect the same. When playing Hero I have certain expectations about gameplay. If I find them in a game 'based on' Hero then to me I am still playing Hero. If I am continually brought up short by 'Ah. Well that doesn't work like this in my game' then I don't feel as if I'm playing Hero. It is a subjective standard and will change from one person's expectations to anothers.

 

All of this is subjective though. Interesting as it is to read.

 

 

Doc