Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

[i3ullseye]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

hehe.....

 

"Ex.: A baseball bat... across my back, thighs, even chest... could be considered normal damage. Hit my head, knees, stomach/vitals... killing attack."

 

Normal Strength, plus a nice bat, let's assume 6D6 total. Last time I checked, doubling this if you hit to the head due to the hit location rules WOULD make this a very lethal attack. 12 body one one swing to the head. In the extreme you have the potential for 24 body. Thats with the rules as currently written, just using the hit location chart.

 

And yes, Chest and Arms/Legs would net less lethal effects by nature of their multipliers also.

 

I don't see a problem with the cost and use of KAs right now. Often the easiest way to approach something ends up balancing out in the end. Both Killing and normal attacks should apply their stun to normal PD and rPD (or ED) combined. The normal attack shoudl also apply their Body against this, but a KA applies its body ONLY against rPD/rED. By compining normal defenses for the stun component, you get rid of the single bullet shot doing massive stun, which is really the focus of this at the start i believe.

 

The random swing of the "Stun Lottery" woudl be lessened byt this greatly. And the "Lottery" in and of itself isn't out of place. You can take a bullet to the arm and it passes right through. Almost no stun, but certainly some body done. You can break a major bone and shock immediately kicks in... you function normally. No stun other than the pain form the wound. But at that same time, a small caliber weapon might not go all the way through you, and the energy is transferred to your physical form... causing FAR more stun. A hard object, at a decent velcity, glancing off your noggin can tend to stun you quite a bit, even if the damage body wise to the skull isn't major.

 

The "Stun Lotto" is actually a very good model on real world variance when dealing with lethal attacks I think. They can often do what they need to start killing you, without really stunning you.

[Greywind]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

And if a person has high defenses, say 35 PD 35 rPD, you've just given him a 70 Stun sponge, making him next to impossible to take down.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

You coudl apply the rPD to the body ONLY, and not to the stun. For the stun they would then use normal PD.

 

But in all reality, the problem isn;t with killing attacks. The problem is with what the character concept is, and how it is modelled. Guns hurt and kill people. even supers, guns and killing attacks are really REALLY bad news.

 

But if your hero is going to shrug this off, high PD and rPD isn't the way to go, at least not once you go over a certain point. If you spend over 30 points itno a defense, you should start looking at damage reductions.

 

But those can be extremely powerful. Thats why active point limits, and little stop signs and magnifying glasses, and PD/ED campaign limits all exist. If you can build the guy that can never be really hurt, where is the challenge?

[Greywind]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

Then again, it depends very much on character concept as to how you deal with the high defenses or whether you aim at reductions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

One other exaple of how KAs do not integrate well in Hero is with hit locations: killing stun is multiplied before defnces - everything else is multiplied after, so if you have a head hit for 6DC against the head, normal attacks roll 6/21 on average and killing attacks roll 7 BODY on average. Assume you have 5pd and 8 armour...(not unreasonable for a 'normal heroic' game)

 

Normal attack:

 

BODY: 6-13 = 0 BODY

Stn 21-13 = 8 x 2 =16 STUN

 

Killing attack:

 

BODY: 7-8 = 0 BODY

STUN: 7x5= 35 - 13 = 22 STUN

 

Seems odd that the KA should do so much more stun (nearly 1 and a half times as much). This, of course, is where 'fixed stun multiples' breaks down, and boy does it show....the stun lottery fix unfixed!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

One other exaple of how KAs do not integrate well in Hero is with hit locations: killing stun is multiplied before defnces - everything else is multiplied after, so if you have a head hit for 6DC against the head, normal attacks roll 6/21 on average and killing attacks roll 7 BODY on average. Assume you have 5pd and 8 armour...(not unreasonable for a 'normal heroic' game)

 

Normal attack:

 

BODY: 6-13 = 0 BODY

Stn 21-13 = 8 x 2 =16 STUN

 

Killing attack:

 

BODY: 7-8 = 0 BODY

STUN: 7x5= 35 - 13 = 22 STUN

 

Seems odd that the KA should do so much more stun (nearly 1 and a half times as much). This, of course, is where 'fixed stun multiples' breaks down, and boy does it show....the stun lottery fix unfixed!

 

 

False argument here. Fixed Stun Multiple is only used in non-hit location games... usually Supers. It balances out (roughly enough) the swings that can happen with attacks are int he 12 DC or more range.

 

Hit locations are usually used at the "Heroic" level, which has lower DC attacks for the most part, unless you start shelling the heroes or using tanks against them, and in such a case, you are going for overkill and getting it.

 

Anyway... at the 6 DC lwevel or such, 1.5 times in Stun isn't nearly as big a deal as at the 12 DC or highere level. You are using two entirely different games to make your argument against a generic mechancis. This is a false premise argument. The generic rule is there to be modified to fit a game... not expected to fit perfectly in every game. KAs with the fixed Stun Multiple work darn fine in supers level games... and KAs using the Hit Location chart tend to work darn fine in Heroic Level games. Using a heroic level example to decry a supers level problem is not a good argument.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

I think you may be missing my point, or I stated it poorly.

 

I agree hit locations are mainly for heroic games, and the examples I gave are reasonable (I think) for heroic games: 5pd, 8 points of armour in a helmet, DC 6 attacks - all perfectly normal for that sort of game. I deliberately avoided DC12 level games as they rarely (IME) use hit locations. The point I am making is that you can not fix killing attacks in a game that uses hot locations in the same way you can 'fix'* it in one that does not, AND that the hit location rules are another example of how the killing attack mechanic meshes imperfectly with other systems because of the odd and incongruous way you have to apply stun damage.

 

Moreover, 1 and a half times stun is an enormous deal at heroic level: it is the difference between being stunned or not and, often, conscious or not. 16 stun is often below heroic CON, 2 stun rarely if ever.

 

 

 

 

*I don't think that a fixed stun multiple is an adequate fix anyway, for reasons i have already outlined

[prestidigitator]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

The other thing I don't like about KAs is the ridiculously disproportionate BODY/STUN damage delivered quite often: a character with 12 rpd and a total of 20 pd can take 40 stun but no body from a bullet. That just ain't right.

Yeah, but I bet it would seem a little more right for an armored target getting whanged hard by a bastard sword. Perhaps we should just apply Reduced Stun Multiple (once or twice) to most guns (maybe most small projectiles and HTH Killing weapons in general) and be done with it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Not Quite another Killing Attack Thread

 

Yeah' date=' but I bet it would seem a little more right for an armored target getting whanged hard by a bastard sword. Perhaps we should just apply [i']Reduced Stun Multiple[/i] (once or twice) to most guns (maybe most small projectiles and HTH Killing weapons in general) and be done with it.

 

My problem is this (ONE of my problems...)

 

If a killing attack does BODY then it is going to HURT, so a bullet against an unprotected target should sting like a - well, stingy thing. Screaming, crying, the whole 9 yards.

 

You are right about the bastard sword though - it has MOMENTUM! - against anarmoured opponent it acts like a club, and against an unarmoured one it cuts: maybe it should be built as a normal attack AP against unarmoured targets....no, Sean, perhaps not....

 

I'm going to bed. Night!