Maximum Damage From Weapons

[Super Squirrel]

I'm curious about the maximum damage weapons can do when you consider all Martial Maneuvers, Damage Classes, CSLs, and STR Bonuses. This is one rule I haven't fully understood and would like some clarification.

 

Kessa Iceraven uses a Great Axe which is 2d6+1 (7 DC).

Hypothetically speaking, Kessa has 21 STR which is 5 STR over the 16 STR Min.

Kessa has 6 Combat Skill Levels with Axes.

Kessa has 1 Combat Skill Level with All Combat.

Kessa has the All-Out-Attack Martial Maneuver (+4 DC Weapon Strike).

 

What is the maximum amount of damage she can do with that weapon?

 

Now, hypothetically speaking, everything is the same as above except the weapon and combat skill levels are for a Dirk 1d6-1 (2 DC). Dirks have a 6 STR Min.

 

What is the maximum amount of damage she can do with that weapon?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

With a Killing Attack weapon it's no more than twice the base DC. In the case of that axe (which I'm assuming is built as an HKA) it's 14DCs absolute max.

[Gummibear]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

It also depends on the genre. There have been some statements on the boards and in the books that state in heroic campaigns:

1. Any power/weapon is additive

2. Any strength/skill levels is additive up to double the original attack.

3. Any DC is additive.

 

So you could have

5d6 HA + 25 Str + 5DC=15d6 which would exceed the double value rule.

 

This is usually only for heroic campaigns or any campaign the GM likes to have munchkin headaches in.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

The only kind of damage bonus that can cause total damage to exceed double the base DCs (the, "Doubling Rule," which for Normal HTH attacks is your Str damage plus any HA you might be applying; oh, plus, "Extra DCs," bought for Martial Arts if using a Martial Maneuver) is movement-based damage (e.g. extra damage from Move Bys, Move Throughs, and IIRC Growth, Stretching, etc.). There is no limit to how high movement-based damage can make an attack (but remember that you take some of the damage if unarmed, and weapons may break if you are armed).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

One VERY important note to the doubling rule.

 

Powers that increase the HKA (Such as Aid/Succor or the Deadly Blow talent) thus increase the Base DC.

 

In your questions, Kessa the Axewoman would be able to go all out for 13 DC killing, and thus has enough wiggle room to benefit from pushing her STR. If she had one more combat level or Martial Arts DC, she could hit DC14, her weapons max. STR adds to killing DC at +1 DC/5 pts, Levels add +1 DC/2 levels, Martial Arts add +1DC Killing /2Maneuver DC.

The latter adds have been, IMHO, a tacit nod to the argument that KA's do more damage in-game than Normal attacks.

If she used a DC7 Really Big Club, she'd have her 14 DC with Combat levels to spare.

 

With her Dirk, she can only do a Max of 4 DC's, or 1d6+1 Killing. So she can reach that damage with her STR adds(and doesn't even have to use her full STR... 16 is enough), her Martial maneuver or by using 4 of her levels for damage.

 

EDIT: Tho I'm not sure about 5ER legality, the second case is a perfect example where the player would benefit from pushing the HKA rather than her STR, if allowed. because, as you see... pushing the KA increases the base and thus the max danmage as well.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I thought, for some reason, that STR Min and CSL were in the doubling rule but Martial Maneuvers were exempt. It is appreciated.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

It also depends on the genre. There have been some statements on the boards and in the books that state in heroic campaigns:

1. Any power/weapon is additive

2. Any strength/skill levels is additive up to double the original attack.

3. Any DC is additive.

 

So you could have

5d6 HA + 25 Str + 5DC=15d6 which would exceed the double value rule.

 

This is usually only for heroic campaigns or any campaign the GM likes to have munchkin headaches in.

unadvantaged Hand Attacks are exempt from the Doubling Rule.

 

Advantaged Hand Attacks and Killing Attacks can only be doubled, no more.

 

Unless there's a rule I'm missing somewhere.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

unadvantaged Hand Attacks are exempt from the Doubling Rule.

 

Advantaged Hand Attacks and Killing Attacks can only be doubled, no more.

 

Unless there's a rule I'm missing somewhere.

 

Well, kinda.

 

In heroic games, both Normal Damage weapons (i.e. Hand To Hand Attack) and Killing Damage weapons can only do a maximum of double their base Damage Class, regardless of what Advantages may or may not be on them. For superheroic games HA weapons simply add directly to the user's STR damage, even if that takes the total DC to more than double the weapon's base DC; unless the weapon has an Advantage which the user does not also have for his STR, in which case the maximum doubling of damage applies.

 

This is probably a good occasion for me to attach Geoff "Talon" Speare's excellent summary of the rules for adding damage:

[ghost-angel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Well, kinda.

 

In heroic games, both Normal Damage weapons (i.e. Hand To Hand Attack) and Killing Damage weapons can only do a maximum of double their base Damage Class, regardless of what Advantages may or may not be on them. For superheroic games HA weapons simply add directly to the user's STR damage, even if that takes the total DC to more than double the weapon's base DC; unless the weapon has an Advantage which the user does not also have for his STR, in which case the maximum doubling of damage applies.

 

This is probably a good occasion for me to attach Geoff "Talon" Speare's excellent summary of the rules for adding damage:

Ah, vcool. Thanks for the clarification ... I know for my own sanity and simplicities sake I simply avoid situations where this might arise if I can.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Also lets not forget:

 

A) When it comes to martial maneuvers and adding damage, Extra DC's count as base damage for Martial maneuvers, including Killing Strike. Thus a Martial artist with Killing Strike (2 DC HKA) and +2 DC's with his Martial Arts does 1D6+1 (4DC) base damage with his killing strike to a maximum of 2 1/2D6K (8DC)

However, when applying Martial Maneuvers to weapons (either normal or killing damage) then Extra DC counts as Added damage, not base damage.

 

Pushing a power increases the powers Base Damage. The effective maximum then increases significantly. Example:

Hayato, a Star Gladiator, has a Energy based HKA. Normally, it is a 2D6 HKA, with a maximum of 4D6 HKA (12 DC's). However, if he pushes it by 10pts, it then becomes a 2 1/2D6 HKA (8 DC) with a maximum of 5D6+1K! (a whooping 16 DC's!)

 

So many nuances....

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Okay, so my confusion probably came from the Maneuvers on weapons vs. Maneuvers on Hand to Hand attacks.

 

I'm thinking of making a combat matrix sheet for the new players to the game. That way they can understand exactly how much they can and cannot do based on what CSL they use.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Also lets not forget:

 

A) When it comes to martial maneuvers and adding damage, Extra DC's count as base damage for Martial maneuvers, including Killing Strike. Thus a Martial artist with Killing Strike (2 DC HKA) and +2 DC's with his Martial Arts does 1D6+1 (4DC) base damage with his killing strike to a maximum of 2 1/2D6K (8DC)

However, when applying Martial Maneuvers to weapons (either normal or killing damage) then Extra DC counts as Added damage, not base damage.

Yep. And for an unarmed Martial Maneuver, the base damage is the character's Str Damage plus Extra Martial Arts DCs. Any bonus damage from the maneuver itself is not Base Damage and is subject to the Doubling Rule, so if you're only doing 2d6 with your normal Str (plus Extra DCs), that Offensive Strike will in fact only raise it to 4d6, not 6d6 (although the GM may, of course, make an exception--I do in this specific scenario).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

In heroic games' date=' both Normal Damage weapons (i.e. Hand To Hand Attack) and Killing Damage weapons can only do a maximum of double their base Damage Class, regardless of what Advantages may or may not be on them. For superheroic games HA weapons simply add directly to the user's STR damage, even if that takes the total DC to more than double the weapon's base DC; [b']unless[/b] the weapon has an Advantage which the user does not also have for his STR, in which case the maximum doubling of damage applies.

Actually, I believe HAs always add to the Base Damage from Str (except for weapons in Heroic campaigns, where they are the Base Damage). It's just that if the HA is Advantaged, you can only apply as many (unadvantaged) Str DCs as you have HA DCs. The distiction becomes important when you add in other damage bonuses, such as maneuver bonuses and CSLs.

 

For example, if you have a 2d6 HA with Armor Piercing, you can only apply 2d6 from Str for a total of 4d6 Base Damage. CSLs and maneuvers could then bring it up to a maximum of 8d6 (note again, however, that movement-based damage, such as that from Move Through or Move By, is exempt from the Doubling Rule).

[zornwil]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

As Steve Long recently ruled (by recent I mean this year), and I believe he is correct based on the rules as they are, regardless of what perhaps they should be, you can get away with a lot by having a HA with Advantages and adding damage to that with Martial DCs (I think your own STR as well but off the top of my head I can't quite recall), as the Advantages all apply but the DCs cost nothing more and there is no doubling limit. This has been hotly debated elsewhere both from the perspective of whether it should really be allowed and whether it is really even rules-correct. But setting that aside, as this thread raises the whole general topic, below are my house rules/comments on attempting to balance this:

 

"While the rules allow for purchasing Martial DCs and letting them be modified freely (i.e., at no cost) according to whatever Advantages one has to an attack they are used with, this obviously can be unbalancing. While the concept is interesting, I think to balance it that I'm going to try a system whereby if you use DCs in excess of the total base STR they are applied to, each DC is a minus 1 to a required Power Skill (which must be purchased or is considered a default 8 or less "Everyman" skill) for that ability OR a DEX roll (if the SFX are DEX-related, such as traditional martial arts). Success means the DCs may be used freely, while failure means that they are lost, at the rate of 1 DC per the amount of failure of the roll (a roll of 3 will be allowed to grant outstanding success and on an 18 something terrible happens). For example, if a character is launching an attack for which the base is a 1d6 HKA (3 DCs) and he has 12 Martial DCs he wishes to apply, bringing the total DCs to 15. Given that the base attack is only 3 DCs, that would allow 3 Martial DCs to be freely added, but this character is adding 12, so that is 9 in excess of the base level. That means the character must make a Power Skill roll at -9 in order to successfully apply the levels. If he failed the roll by 3, he would only be able to add 6 of the additional levels, for a final attack of 12 DCs (4d6 HKA). Obviously, characters intending to use high amounts of Martial DCs this will end up deciding to pay for Power Skill levels or levels with DEX just for this attack. Please note that it may be possible to use this with an existing related Power Skill, but that will be reviewed carefully on a per-instance basis. Regarding DEX levels bought with this, they count as a normal specific Skill Level at +2 points per +1 to the roll. Normally, these skills/levels may not be in frameworks; with special permission, the DEX basis may be in frameworks."

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

I have personally found the cap decent. In a Heroic Level Game, they are lethal with damage produced by weapons.

[Markdoc]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

One possibility for heroic games I played with was to allow muscle-powered HTH weapons to do more than double DCs - once. If you were strong enough you could whack someone really hard and break your weapon in the process. I dropped the rule because it encouraged people to carry 4 or 5 swords but for a cinematic game it was kind of fun...

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

One possibility for heroic games I played with was to allow muscle-powered HTH weapons to do more than double DCs - once. If you were strong enough you could whack someone really hard and break your weapon in the process. I dropped the rule because it encouraged people to carry 4 or 5 swords but for a cinematic game it was kind of fun...

 

cheers, Mark

Actually I can see this having great potential...

instead of having the sword just break tho... howabout giving it a Burnout roll if you exceed X2 base DC? Set the max DC at X3, but have each extra dc drop the burnout down one level on the chart. This'd kinda help balance the smaller weapons against the bigger ones... with a DC2 dagger, you'd never get a burnout below 14-... you can abuse a knife quite a bit, but you still CAN break it. The sword with 6 DC to start with could be pushed up to hideous damage... but you stand a pretty good (9-) chance of snapping it.

 

I think you just gave my FH game a new house rule

[zornwil]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

One possibility for heroic games I played with was to allow muscle-powered HTH weapons to do more than double DCs - once. If you were strong enough you could whack someone really hard and break your weapon in the process. I dropped the rule because it encouraged people to carry 4 or 5 swords but for a cinematic game it was kind of fun...

 

cheers, Mark

That's a great idea - perhaps you could still do it as once per character per session, period.

[zornwil]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

Actually I can see this having great potential...

instead of having the sword just break tho... howabout giving it a Burnout roll if you exceed X2 base DC? Set the max DC at X3, but have each extra dc drop the burnout down one level on the chart. This'd kinda help balance the smaller weapons against the bigger ones... with a DC2 dagger, you'd never get a burnout below 14-... you can abuse a knife quite a bit, but you still CAN break it. The sword with 6 DC to start with could be pushed up to hideous damage... but you stand a pretty good (9-) chance of snapping it.

 

I think you just gave my FH game a new house rule

Oooh, now that's really cool! Food for thought.

[Markdoc]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

I think you just gave my FH game a new house rule

 

Teach me to be more specific. Here's the actual rule:

 

If you exceed twice the damage maximum for your weapon, there is a chance of it breaking, which is 9+DC added (not the base DC) of the weapon.

 

Thus, a dagger, where you can normally only add 2 DC, would break on a 12- (or more) if you exceeded the limit, since you would need to add at least 3 DC to exceed the normal limit, whereas a longsword (4DC) would break on at least a 14-, since you would need to add at least 5DC to exceed the normal limit. This is quick and simple, but not very realistic (it's way easier to break a spear than a zweihander, for example). It *is* fairly punitive, but then it was meant to be. I didn't want people exceeding damage limits regularly - especially with larger weapons.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Maximum Damage From Weapons

 

That's a great idea - perhaps you could still do it as once per character per session' date=' period.[/quote']

 

Actually what I do now is simply let people "push" their HKA - with all the limitations routinely required for pushing in heroic games. That prevents it from being a routine thing. If the weapon does more than normally allowable max damage then it breaks, but this is modified "on the fly" by me - for example, pushing your HKA to attempt to harm an iron golem is likely to cause the weapon to break even if it did less than maximum damage - the same against a flesh target might let you go one or two points over. Pushing an attack with a spear against a wooden door will almost certainly cause it to break, whereas using an axe I might let it go 1 or 2 points over max.

 

This is less punitive than the original idea (at least in terms of weapon breakage) but since increased attacks are harder to do, it evens out.

 

In short, I wing it rather than having a hard and fast rule. The players know they can push if they really have to, but in general they don't - and therefore they don't bother with carrying lots of extra weapons.

 

cheers, Mark