Building a Better Flashlight

[Constantine]

I always thought 6pts was a little steep for a flashlight, so I've been thinking of another way to build one. What do people think of this construction:

 

"Flashlight" - Nightvision, OAF -1, Visible (beam of light) -.1/4, must be aimed -.1/2. 5 pts. active, 2pts real.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

This is what I think of it:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROEquipmentDebunk.htm

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

I don't think it's adequate, to be honest. (Sorry!) It doesn't reflect that the lighted area is of much more limited size than your potential field of vision, or that other people can also see what you've illuminated. Also, this wouldn't allow you to see in non-night darkness (such as a cave), while a flashlight would.

 

I also think that it's not generally necessary to stat it out. But if you want/need to stat it out for some reason, I don't think Nightvision alone cuts the mustard.

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Wow. Ok, obviously, if I thought 6pts was too expensive, I think 16 is way too expensive. Yes, the ability to see is handy, but as handy as a having a good gun?? I'm not thinking so. Thanks for the link, though.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Yes' date=' the ability to see is handy, but as handy as a having a good gun?? I'm not thinking so.[/quote']It totally depends on the circumstances. I can think of almost limitless situations in which a good flashlight would be much more useful than a good gun. And many others in which it would be, while not more useful, just as useful.

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

I don't think it's adequate, to be honest. (Sorry!) It doesn't reflect that the lighted area is of much more limited size than your potential field of vision, or that other people can also see what you've illuminated. Also, this wouldn't allow you to see in non-night darkness (such as a cave), while a flashlight would.

 

I also think that it's not generally necessary to stat it out. But if you want/need to stat it out for some reason, I don't think Nightvision alone cuts the mustard.

 

One could argue (and I will ) that the visible portion of the power would allow other to see. As for the cave thing, did I miss a limitation on the power in the book?

 

I don't see a need to stat it out either. My GM, however, does.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

One could argue (and I will ) that the visible portion of the power would allow other to see.

One could argue in return (and I will ) that a Limitation (Visible) should not convey an Advantage (Usable By Others).

As for the cave thing' date=' did I miss a limitation on the power in the book?[/quote']Whoops! No, that was my error. I was thinking of Ultraviolet Perception.

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

One could argue in return (and I will ) that a Limitation (Visible) should not convey an Advantage (Usable By Others).

 

Well, since it illuminates things for everyone, including any enemies you have in the area, I don't think its truly usable by others. Besides, have you ever tried to walk in a dark area when someone else is holding the flashlight? It doesnt' work as well. But thanks for the input, and I'll concede that I need to go back to the drawing table....

[The Souljourner]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

On the original topic, I think independant is an important limitation to give it. It's *not* a focus. Unless you have a fingerprint reader on the power button, anyone can pick it up and turn it on. That's not true of an OAF.

 

Honestly, anything you can pick up at a corner store for less than 10 bucks is not worth paying points for, even in a superheroic campaign. I don't care how big a difference it may make in some conditions, it's still just a friggin' flashlight.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

On the original topic, I think independant is an important limitation to give it. It's *not* a focus. Unless you have a fingerprint reader on the power button, anyone can pick it up and turn it on. That's not true of an OAF.

 

Honestly, anything you can pick up at a corner store for less than 10 bucks is not worth paying points for, even in a superheroic campaign. I don't care how big a difference it may make in some conditions, it's still just a friggin' flashlight.

 

-Nate

Universal Focus would let others pick ot up and use it.

 

Flashlight 2D6 Transform: Live Batteries into Dead Battries.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

If you are going to bother to stat this out, youre up against a few things:

 

a) Right or wrong, it has been dictated from on high by Steve Long that the way to make Light is via Images vs Sight with the Light Only Limitation

 

Even if you blow that off (as many do), and go about it using an Enhanced Sense, your build still doesnt work for this reason:

 

Visible as a Limitation simply means that a Power that normally is not detectable in use, is detectable when in use. It does not grant functionality to others, it simply makes it s that a Power cannot be used incognito.

 

The classic example of Nightvision with Visible would be eyes that glow red or are luminescent like a cats when the Power is being used.

 

It most assuredly would not provide the benefits of Nightvision to others.

 

 

 

If you want to go about making a Flashlight using Nightvision, then you would need to either apply UBO to it, or get your GM to agree to allowing you to use the beneficial AoE option discussed in Fantasy HERO (and perhaps in other later supplements), whereby you can apply AoE to a beneficial power that benefits others within the affected area instead of using UBO.

 

Eitherway, a whole lot of extra work to go thru for a flashlight.

 

 

If this is for a superhero game, consider taking a small, perhaps 15 Pool, Gadget Pool for "everyday gadgets".

 

If its not for a superhero game direct your GM to the link I posted above, or have him contact me directly either via eMail or on these boards and we'll discuss why making people stat flashlights is not beneficial or necessary.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Universal Focus would let others pick ot up and use it.

 

I forgot about making foci universal. Good idea. Then you don't have to pay more points when yours breaks and you go pick up another one at the corner store.

 

I still say it's a waste of time and energy statting stuff like that out. The GM is there to say "no, you can't just go get an Abrams tank", so let people carry around flashlights, cigarette lighters, etc. And when they want an M16, you tell them they have to pay for it.

 

-Nate

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

If you are going to bother to stat this out, youre up against a few things:

 

a) Right or wrong, it has been dictated from on high by Steve Long that the way to make Light is via Images vs Sight with the Light Only Limitation

 

Even if you blow that off (as many do), and go about it using an Enhanced Sense, your build still doesnt work for this reason:

 

Visible as a Limitation simply means that a Power that normally is not detectable in use, is detectable when in use. It does not grant functionality to others, it simply makes it s that a Power cannot be used incognito.

 

The classic example of Nightvision with Visible would be eyes that glow red or are luminescent like a cats when the Power is being used.

 

It most assuredly would not provide the benefits of Nightvision to others.

 

 

 

If you want to go about making a Flashlight using Nightvision, then you would need to either apply UBO to it, or get your GM to agree to allowing you to use the beneficial AoE option discussed in Fantasy HERO (and perhaps in other later supplements), whereby you can apply AoE to a beneficial power that benefits others within the affected area instead of using UBO.

 

Eitherway, a whole lot of extra work to go thru for a flashlight.

 

 

If this is for a superhero game, consider taking a small, perhaps 15 Pool, Gadget Pool for "everyday gadgets".

 

If its not for a superhero game direct your GM to the link I posted above, or have him contact me directly either via eMail or on these boards and we'll discuss why making people stat flashlights is not beneficial or necessary.

 

Don't make me laugh at work! Repped!

[gojira]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Just on the whole flashlight meta discussion:

 

One, I think it's reasonable to let PCs buy equipment even in the superhero genre. My balance for this is that said bought equipment needs to be cheap, mundane and legal. So flashlights and cell phones are ok, but fire arms (which are not legal to carry around, esp. loaded) are not. As a further balance issue, such bought equipment tends to get broken a lot, esp. in a super battle. Players soon learn that it's easier to buy the super version (with XP) than to fight with the phone company all the time over yet another replacement cell phone.

 

Second, I think it's the ultimate in GM miserliness to make players pay full points for a stupid flashlight. A better solution, I think, is to allow any character to carry a utility belt with a 10 to 20 point gadget pool. Now a PC has a flashlight when he needs it, but he also has lock picks, a camera, finger print dust, a two way radio, trip wires, pitons, a breathing filter, light rope, a police radio scanner, a homing becon, breath mints, etc. whenever he or she needs them.

 

This basically turns a problem (paying 6 points for a flashlight) into something the players actually like.

 

EDIT: oops, SK beat me too it. Curses, foiled again. I'll get you yet, KS, and your little dog too!!

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

So that my GM doesn't develop a conplex, let me explain the campaign a little. Its going to be a high-end heroic level game, meant for a series of rotating solo adventures for several pcs. Having the right gear for the right job could be critical to mission success or failure. He is also giving us a free (!) 50pt gadget pool, that can only have "real" stuff in it(real level guns, armor, flashlights, cameras, etc.) and can only be changed out at a base. So, the need to cost out a flashlight. Even he agrees that the flashlight per the book and Mr. Long, is too expensive, so we are trying to come up with a better way. Suggestions welcome. Personally, I may skip it, and just buy some nightvision genetic engineering for my supersoldier, but the other characters may not want to go that route, and the bad guys may need flashlights...

 

Thank you all for your input.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Add a Generic Equipment List to the campaign. Anything you can pick up at a KMart is Generic Equipment, or some other simple defining point.

 

Each item costs between 1-3 points based on the value put on it by the GM regardless of how many "statted" points it has. This way you can only carry up to your equipment pool limit but still have a Value placed on each item.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Doesn't the Wealth/Poverty perk/disad already cover this?

My thought is that if it costs less than 5x(value of your wealth) in Real points, than it shouldn't ever be an issue. (as long as it can be legally and easily obtained by the general public) Anything not easy to obtain would be points or need the equipment perks from Dark Champions.

The 5x is based on the vehicle/base perk cost.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

On the original topic' date=' I think independant is an important limitation to give it. It's *not* a focus. Unless you have a fingerprint reader on the power button, anyone can pick it up and turn it on. That's not true of an OAF.[/quote']This just means it's not a Personal Focus... that doesn't make it Independent.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Sounds like your GM is making things more difficult than they need to be.

 

Also, as an aside, he may want to check out the RESOURCE POINTS system in Dark Champions. It's a good thing.

[austenandrews]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

This is ridiculous. Any power can be defined with the SFX of a beam of light, for free. So I propose:

 

5 pts of some random power, OAF (-1), No Effect (-2), Fuel Charge (-whatever). Real Cost: 1 pt.

 

The Special Effect of the random power is a flashlight beam.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

This is ridiculous. Any power can be defined with the SFX of a beam of light, for free. So I propose:

 

5 pts of some random power, OAF (-1), No Effect (-2), Fuel Charge (-whatever). Real Cost: 1 pt.

 

The Special Effect of the random power is a flashlight beam.

Ah- but just because that is the SFX, does not mean you get to see in the dark.

And Visible would be legitimate, but not allow others to see...

That is what you call SIDE EFFECTS: Nightvision, UAA: AOE:Rad extended radius. Which would handle the point cost nicely. And throw an activation on the side effects to simulate how poor it is when someone else is holding the flashlight.

[Constantine]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Ah- but just because that is the SFX, does not mean you get to see in the dark. *snip*

Isn't there also a section of the book that says special effects should be called into play? I mean, saying there is a beam of light out there, but its not images so you can't see by it is a little silly.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

I always thought it odd that they wrote up flashlights as being images in the first place. Images are something you want others to see, not something that increases your PER roll. Personally, I would build a flashlight as a Change Enviroment with a +PER for the same cost as the -PER, visible (noisy), oaf, only in darkness. That way everyone can see it, and can see by it. Plus, the more powerful the flashlight, the bigger the +PER. Range increases with brightness, and it only iluminates 1 hex for most handheld beams. Of course this would have a limit of... (what was the penalty for blind? -8?) +8 then...

 

With images, it doesn't matter- same point cost for a penlight or a 16000 cp search beam. Despite the writeups.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

I always thought it odd that they wrote up flashlights as being images in the first place. Images are something you want others to see, not something that increases your PER roll. Personally, I would build a flashlight as a Change Enviroment with a +PER for the same cost as the -PER, visible (noisy), oaf. That way everyone can see it, and can see by it. Plus, the more powerful the flashlight, the bigger the +PER.

With images, it doesn't matter- same point cost for a penlight or a 16000 cp search beam.

That would be ideal, but for some odd reason Change Environment can not grant bonuses. There was a long running thread on this not too long ago.

[austenandrews]

Re: Building a Better Flashlight

 

Isn't there also a section of the book that says special effects should be called into play? I mean' date=' saying there is a beam of light out there, but its not images so you can't see by it is a little silly.[/quote']

Exactly. If the Human Torch enters a dark room, the room isn't dark anymore. He doesn't have to buy Images for that, any more than Godzilla has to buy Darkness because he blots out the sun.