Sending a message to the past

[Steve]

In the James Hogan novel Thrice Upon A Time and the Dennis Quaid movie Frequency, there is a plot device that allows messages to be sent into the past. I'm wondering which is the better way to model it: to take an Enhanced sense like Radio Perception/Transmission and give it the Dimensional Adder, or does it need the Transdimensional Advantage instead? I'm thinking that it just needs the Dimensional Adder, but I was curious as to what others might feel.

[Constantine]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

Off the top of my head, I'd say transdimensional is needed. I think the dimensional adder was intended for a different use. (My cell phone works even if I'm in dimension X!) That would be my gut call, but I don't have a book in front of me....

[McCoy]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

I'd call it a plot device.

 

If I felt I had to put points on it, I would buy it for the past self as precognition, on a focus, with the +0 limitation "only what future self tells him."

 

BTW, Thrice Upon A Time is an excelent book, recomend to everyone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

What you need there buddy, is a very confident GM. Anything that requires a paradox to actually work or resolves paradoxes with new futures has so many things that can go wrong that it is laughable. What you need to do, by and large, is make sure that your payers do not cotton on. Or not care that you are about to fracture the multiverse.

 

Whatever...

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

You say that like fracturing the megaverse would be a bad thing....

DC does it at least once a decade.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

Let me 2nd McCoy's comments about Thrice Upon a Time -- a really good book, and one I'd reccomend without hesitation to anyone.

 

As for sending the message back...the suggestions already made are pretty much the "standard" ways to approach it, and I'd probably chose one of those. But since I've never been one to let the obvious approach be enough...

 

First off, I'd say that (at least in the case of Thrice) the "getting a message from the future" is just a special effect. Of what? Precognition, OAF Immobile Fragile Focus, Always On, as a Sense, Activation Roll. (The Activation Roll represents that you can't receive a message if one wasn't sent.) Since you can't receive the message without a special-built receiver, it sounds more to me like the receiver is what should be statted out, points-wise, if you're going to stat out anything -- and the receiver is just a limited form of precognition.

 

But only the wierder side...

 

Have you considered Retrocognition, with the "Transmit" option from the Enhanced Senses section?

 

 

And along the lines of books or movies with this sort of theme, James Blish's short story "Beep" (later expanded to a short novel entitled The Quincunx of Time) deals with this as well, but the transmitting into the past is a side effect of another type of communication.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

I'm not familiar with the sources (unfortunately, but soon to be remidied as at least the book is highly recomemded), but I'm wondering what the result of the message ultimately is. When the message is sent back, does it result in a future where the message is never sent? If so, there is nothing that can send the message in the character's universe and only the ability of the receiver would need to be worried about. For the most part, this doesn't even look like it needs stats, as whether or not a message is sent, who recieves it etc. is completely up to the GM. So it's the GM's power and belongs to none of the characters (though they may have access to it indirectly).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

As Dust Raven points out effect is going to be very much a matter of Point Of View: I suppose the question is going to be what effect would the message have. You could use 'telling your earlier self about it' as a justification for overall skill levels, maybe, or danger sense, or uncontrolled precognition, or luck, or....but then you would buy the powers that way and not as some sort of trans-temporal telepathy.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

As Dust Raven points out effect is going to be very much a matter of Point Of View: I suppose the question is going to be what effect would the message have. You could use 'telling your earlier self about it' as a justification for overall skill levels' date=' maybe, or danger sense, or uncontrolled precognition, or luck, or....but then you would buy the powers that way and not as some sort of trans-temporal telepathy.[/quote']

 

The biggest problem I see with buying it as a Power for a single character is that the character could theoretically send a message to anyone. The second biggest is figuring out if he sent a message or not, how far in the future was the message sent (and how accurate/truthful).

 

Another big monky wrench is figuring out what happens if more than one person can send back messages? Suppose you send a message convincing the people of Hiroshima to flee their city the day before the bomb was dropped, while someone else sends a message to the U.S. warning of an anti-aircraft placement. The U.S. postpones the drop, or switches targets, and the people of Hiroshima find their city was not destroyed after all and the message to them was useless.

 

Or a more in game scenario: You receive a message from yourself in the future telling you that Mr. X will be at a certain place at a certain time. You arrive to lie in wait for him only to find he's set a trap for you because he received a message saying you'd be lying it wait for him there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

The biggest problem I see with buying it as a Power for a single character is that the character could theoretically send a message to anyone. The second biggest is figuring out if he sent a message or not, how far in the future was the message sent (and how accurate/truthful).

 

Another big monky wrench is figuring out what happens if more than one person can send back messages? Suppose you send a message convincing the people of Hiroshima to flee their city the day before the bomb was dropped, while someone else sends a message to the U.S. warning of an anti-aircraft placement. The U.S. postpones the drop, or switches targets, and the people of Hiroshima find their city was not destroyed after all and the message to them was useless.

 

Or a more in game scenario: You receive a message from yourself in the future telling you that Mr. X will be at a certain place at a certain time. You arrive to lie in wait for him only to find he's set a trap for you because he received a message saying you'd be lying it wait for him there.

 

 

Well, I'd rep you for that if I could: excellent analysis of just some of the problems that you get with any kind of time travel/messaging system.

 

I would be inclined to limit the ability to specific powers the character can build rather than just the 'meta-power' communicate with the past, unless you have a brave GM.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

The biggest problem I see with buying it as a Power for a single character is that the character could theoretically send a message to anyone.

Which is why I suggested this:

I'd say that (at least in the case of Thrice) the "getting a message from the future" is just a special effect. Of what? Precognition' date=' OAF Immobile Fragile Focus, Always On, as a Sense, Activation Roll. (The Activation Roll represents that you can't receive a message if one wasn't sent.) Since you can't receive the message without a special-built receiver, it sounds more to me like the receiver is what should be statted out, points-wise, if you're going to stat out anything -- and the receiver is just a limited form of precognition. [/quote']

Or a more in game scenario: You receive a message from yourself in the future telling you that Mr. X will be at a certain place at a certain time. You arrive to lie in wait for him only to find he's set a trap for you because he received a message saying you'd be lying it wait for him there.

You mean like the end of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure?

[Sean Waters]

The Start Of The GodWar

 

This reminds me of my stab at time paradox: basically we start off with the Greek Gods starting to appear on Earth as they have divined that a sacred artefact has been stolen from the past and is now in (their) future. You know the story of Persephone? She was the daughter of the Earth goddess but agreed to marry Hades, and divides her time between mum and hubby - when she goes to the underworld, mum sulks and the earth becomes cold and barren - it is winter!

 

So I decided that in order to survive the rigors of the UnderWorld(tm), Persephone needs to wear a crown (OIF, LS: Hades). Well, this Crown gets stolen, and turns up in the future....Hades deeply PO'd, and to avert some sort of cataclysmic spat, the Gods come to the future to find the Crown. Having caused untold damage, and having encountered the Heroes, the Gods decide they will be benificent and tell the heroes THEY can go and get the bloody Crown, or there will be trouble....

 

So, the Heroes look.

 

The only place they KNOW it is is in the past, so thay manage to travel back to ancient Greece, steal the Crown and bring it back tot he future (I make that sound so straightforward, don't I?).

 

So there is a pretty simple paradox that worked well in practice. What happened next, of course, was less predictable and, sadly, a tale for another time.....I'm far enough off thread as it is!

[i3ullseye]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

Time Messages... a few other considerations perhaps.

 

1) How is the recipient in the past going to receive these messages? If there are radios, this can be a trandimensional broadcast. If not, there needs to be a means of contact. A conduit of sorts. Barring all this, then I woudl start looking at Mindlink or Telepathy to model it.

 

2) One or many recipients? again, this can point to a Mind Link as opposed to Telepathy or a Radio Transmit.

 

3) what is the in game reference point? Are you playing that character in the past? Then Precog with no personal control is probably the way to go. If youa re the one sending messages, then you want one of the aforementioned builds on how to actually Send the message. If you play the recipient though, HOW it gets there isn't really all that important, as it can just be a SPFX definition for Precog.

 

4) Is this communication one way or two way? If it is two way, we REALLY need to have that pointed out on top of the Precognition if you happen to be playing the character in the past.

 

And even more.....

 

5) Can others eavesdrop on this communication? Is it possible for this to be intercepted? Can it be blocked?

 

6) How are the ramifications of the information given going to play out in game? There are many things that coudl be justified with this, and many others that could be disastrous.

 

7) Is there some form of temporal regulation agency that would frown on this sort of thing? How about creatures that are drawn to the time of energies used? What are the threats involved?

 

Another interesting approach, depending on how you will play the character. You coudl take Duplication, with Can Not Recombine and Altered Duplicates. Now if you want mroe than one time version of the character to co-exist, one can show up to help the other even. Buying it this way means the more advanced one can have differrent skills and abilities, but since it is based on the main form you will see any injuries or scars or such reflected on the newer version.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

haven't read the whole thread ... Has someone suggested a Mind Link with EDM: Time, perhaps even a Psychic Bond. Tack on Uncontrolled and the GM is now free to send a message back from one mind to another Mind through time.

[McCoy]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

I'm not familiar with the sources (unfortunately' date=' but soon to be remidied as at least the book is highly recomemded), but I'm wondering what the result of the message ultimately is. When the message is sent back, does it result in a future where the message is never sent? If so, there is nothing that can send the message in the character's universe and only the ability of the receiver would need to be worried about. For the most part, this doesn't even look like it needs stats, as whether or not a message is sent, who recieves it etc. is completely up to the GM. So it's the GM's power and belongs to none of the characters (though they may have access to it indirectly).[/quote']

In the book, it's a large, immobile machine. A message sent into the past that was not received before "resets" reality from the time it was received. The characters are very careful to transmit any messages they have received at the correct time. Events that happened in the reality the message was not recieved are not necessarily duplicated after the message was received, even if the characters do not try to change things.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Sending a message to the past

 

In the book' date=' it's a large, immobile machine. A message sent into the past that was not received before "resets" reality from the time it was received. The characters are very careful to transmit any messages they have received at the correct time. Events that happened in the reality the message was not recieved are not necessarily duplicated after the message was received, even if the characters do not try to change things.[/quote']

Not every time; in at least one experiment, they deliberately did not send a message they had received, and came to the conclusion that the "them" that had sent the message had been wiped out, obliterated...because of actions (deciding not to send the received message) that only took place because the "them" that no longer existed sent a message in the first place. In other words, in that instance, the people who sent the message wiped themselves out of existence, to be replaced by the versions of themselves that received the message but decided not to send it.

 

They found that a sobering thought.