Make them pay!!

[Korren]

Ok, this question may have been asked and answered, already, but I don't know how to search for it. If you know of a thread about this subject, just send me there and I'll be happy.

 

I was thinking of a Fantasy based game where the Independent limitation was almost completely missing. "No-one gets it for free!" I mean, if someone finds a sword and wants to use it, that's fine.... for a few sessions! If they want to KEEP it, they have to pay the points for it! I mean, why should the "Mage" have to pay points for every one of his spells, but the "Fighter" has 16 different "Independent" weapons that he's carrying around, for different situations? All he has to do is buy a horse or weight-reducing sack to carry them all around with!

 

Each piece of armor, each weapon or magic "item" has a point cost that a character can choose to pay to make the item part of themselves, so it can't be taken away, easily. I know this seems "mean", but I think the whole point of using Hero instead of d20 would be to insure that all characters add up to the same point total (or, close to it) at the end of each session.

 

That's my idea..... discuss!

 

Thanks,

Korren

[ghost-angel]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

It's certainly a doable idea .. though expect to have players want a higher point total to get all those toys.

 

Also consider that while a Mage pays for spells a fighter type will pay for CSLs, higher Dex, Manuevers and other associated skills to own, maintain and effectively use those weapons.

 

Depending on how you handle magic the point totals may be comparable without needing to charge for equipment.

 

Remember if you charge the "fighter types" for equipment you'll also need to charge the "mage types" for their equipment thus creating the same point disparity (if any) that you started with.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

There may also be magic-enhancing items out there, or things only mages can use, which would help even the disparity. And while it's a simple matter to take a warrior's weapons and armor away from him, it's much harder to "strip" a mage of his spells.

 

Besides, in HERO, there's nothing against a mage carrying around and even using the various weapons, armor, etc. Probably won't be as effective with them as the dedicated warrior, but don't worry too much about "class" or "archetype". Players may end up with the "archetype" of the fire mage who's a great shot with a crossbow and can pick locks blindfolded.

 

You may want to look for some of the various equipment related threads, like "Is Punisher the problem?". Some thoughts there might be useful, like RDU Neil's concept of "availability".

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

Also, you might want to post this question down in the Fantasy Hero section; since the people that post there are by definition thinking about Fantasy Hero, you may get more responses and opinions by posting it there.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

You should definitely post this in the fantasy hero board,

 

BUT to answer your question, I tinkered with this when I first started running fantasy hero, and it didn't really work for me. The reason it didn't really work was that the magic system I was using (the 'turakian' magic system with divide by three spells) had already taken this disparity into account and had reduced the cost of spells accordingly. Most magic systems do.

 

That said, if you are using a magic system you came up with yourself, then you might find that making weapons cost damage gives you better balance between the sword swingers and the spell slingers. However, I would playtest a couple fights just to be sure, since many magic systems include some point cost breaks to make up for the disparity you are talking about.

 

Personally, even if I realized my game was unbalanced towards the warriors, I would find a way to make magic cost a few less points rather than restrict what weapons a warrior can use. Saying "you can't pick up that sword because you haven't paid for it on your character sheet" just screams mechanics interfering with game. The whole beauty of hero is that the mechanics blend into the background pretty fast.

 

My guess is, you will find the characters are fairly balanced and probably don't need any tweaking.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

Personally' date=' even if I realized my game was unbalanced towards the warriors, I would find a way to make magic cost a few less points rather than restrict what weapons a warrior can use. Saying "you can't pick up that sword because you haven't paid for it on your character sheet" just screams mechanics interfering with game. The whole beauty of hero is that the mechanics blend into the background pretty fast.[/quote']

While this may be true, I find I did have an interesting thought occuring to me when I was thinking about this.

 

It would be interesting to set up a fantasy world where people couldn't keep/own anything they had not invested a portion of their soul into, simply because that's the way the world itself works. (Don't know why yet -- still thinking about that -- but I think I'm going to fiddle with it a bit.)

 

It would lead to all kinds of interesting quirks in mythology, society, and how people interact with each other, with their possessions, and with each other's possessions. Thieves, for example, would have a very hard time indeed...unless the "you can't keep it without investing it with part of yourself" doesn't apply to things like coins and gems and so forth.

 

Another possibility is a voodoo-like belief that if you can steal or take forcibly an 'invested' possession of someone else, you may be able to control them, harm them, or whatever via doing things to the object...since it contains part of their soul.

 

(In this context I'm equating 'soul' in the culture's mythology with 'character points' on the character sheet.)

 

Edit: and in some vague and not directly-connected way, thinking about this is reminding me of David Brin's The Practice Effect...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

1) Please post to Fantasy HERO. Easier for those of us who run it to post there.

 

2) You can go ahead and do that, and that suggestion exists within HERO, but it's more for Superheroic level campaigns, rather than Heroic ones. The assumption is that a Superhero doesn't buy a cell phone for his superheroness - it's out of genre. A Hero buys a cell phone. And a car. And everything else under the sun, including his weaponry.

 

In a Heroic setting, making people burn points isn't all that Heroic - it's more of a limitation. If you don't want people toting around gobs of weapons in Handy Haversacks, then don't allow Haversacks. HERO is also fairly restrictive on not just what you can swing, but what you can swing well. A player is already 'paying' for weaponry when they purchase CSLs, WFs and the like, as discussed prior.

 

Leave the points for the major element; while HERO naturally eschews any sort of leveling class system, it sounds (from over here) like that's something you're beating around trying to simulate; everyone should pay for everything. Tom brings up an excellent point - that also depends on the magic system you're using. In a Magic/3 system, then they become fairly accessible and maintain a certain 'superheroicness' as they burn END, replace END, and so on.

 

I use a VPP for my Wizards, so they have to slot a charge and burn it - but they don't pay for spells per se. They can research new ones for free, but it takes time. They can find them and draft them into their spell books as well. Speaking as someone who has a measure of tank affinity, I don't think as a player I'd enjoy having to burn heaven-only-knows how many RP for my super cool new shiny sword, only to have said sword taken away at a dramatic moment. The purpose of the weapon being Independent is that it can be removed; it can be regained. The villain can pick it up and smack you with it.

 

So, to back up a moment, what exactly are you looking to accomplish by doing this?

[hancock.tom]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

The more I think about it the less I think it is going to work very well unless you have some plot effect (like what Anomaly mentioned) causing it to make sense.

 

If you force people to pay points for a sword, then they are paying character points for something that can be taken away from them at any time and they might not get back (swords are typically built with real weapon and independent limitations) which could be a mess for your campaign.

 

On the other hand, if you let them build the sword without real weapon and independent, then they can't be dropped or anything like that. They are part of the character just like his arm would be, or wolverine's claws are.

 

I think you should either not mess with this, or take Dr. Anomaly's suggestion of coming up with some really cool plot device that explains it.

 

I like the idea of somehow investing your soul into a sword and that way making it more difficult to seperate from you. If you don't want to significantly alter your campaign world and how it works (like Anomaly's suggestion) then maybe just make these soul-connected swords a commonplace magic item. Maybe receiving one is a rite of passage for every young warrior. Its a cool way to get your player to pay character points for the sword, and it gives you a reason not to put real weapon and independent limitations on it. Maybe write up a cheap "return to owner" power or a "sense where my sword is" power, something like that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

On the other hand' date=' if you let them build the sword without real weapon and independent, then they can't be dropped or anything like that. They are part of the character just like his arm would be, or wolverine's claws are.[/quote']

Er ... not quite.

 

Real Weapon means it requires maintenance to keep in working shape.

Independant means it can be permanently removed from the character somehow.

 

You're talking about is Focus - without building it as a Focus the character always gets it back on their Phase, knock it out of their hand and on their attack they somehow have it back without wasting an action to use again (like wolverines claws, or part of their arm).

 

It's the combination of all 3 that tends to define a Heroic Level weapon.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

You could use is sort of extended Weapon Familiarity chart.

 

1 pt: Use Itenia's Marked Sword

2 pt: Use of Marked Swords (unique class of Long Swords)

3 pt: Use of Magical Long Swords

4 pt: Use of Magical Swords

 

1 pt: Use of Specific Magical Staff

2 pt: Use of Mage Magical Staves

3 pt: Use of Magical Staves

 

etc ...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

I like the idea of somehow investing your soul into a sword and that way making it more difficult to seperate from you. If you don't want to significantly alter your campaign world and how it works (like Anomaly's suggestion) then maybe just make these soul-connected swords a commonplace magic item. Maybe receiving one is a rite of passage for every young warrior. Its a cool way to get your player to pay character points for the sword' date=' and it gives you a reason not to put real weapon and independent limitations on it. Maybe write up a cheap "return to owner" power or a "sense where my sword is" power, something like that.[/quote']

Once a sword (or other weapon) were 'invested' like that, perhaps cultural tradition would have it that the sword is now like a twin brother or sister, rather than an explicit part of yourself. Hmmm...gives a whole new meaning to the term "brothers in arms", doesn't it?

 

"The gods tell us that everyone is born a twin; one twin with a body of flesh, the other with a body of steel. Until such time as the body of steel can be prepared, the twin of metal slumbers with the body of their fleshly brother. The time has come to awaken the twin of steel! Bring forth the blade, forged of steel containing the blood of the fleshly brother, that we may transfer the soul into the steel!"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

You know, I should've posted this earlier. I'm already doing what The Anticrisis suggested; because my players all (all, regardless of class) have Ancestral Weapons. These weapons can be 'awakened' to certain powers and abilities so long as the PC invests points to the weapon to do it. The weapons are like minor characters and are definately OIF.

 

Now you can have each PC, effectively 'building' their own version of their Ancestral Weapon, and you sidestep a great many messy things, like "Did they pay enough for the cool effect?" Well, yes, automatically. They paid for every power the sword has. They want their sword to channel magic? In d20, they can't do that. In HERO, they could. They can have it fulfill just about any fantasy concept they can think of, but it's inherent, instead of separate.

 

If you're going to go the whole hog route, then oh my yes, it's fantastic. But if we're just talking about generic weapons (+1 OCV & DC, for example) then I see no reason to force someone to pay for that in a Heroic based setting.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

If you do charge the PC's points for their equipment, then the requirement for weapon familiarities should be removed. The general rule is that you don't need to pay points for the skill to use abilities which you also acquire with points.

 

The cost of these items should not end up being exorbitant - they are Foci (OAF or OIF), Real (weapon/armor), and have STR minima/encumbrance issues, all of which limitations will lower the cost of these objects.

 

Can they be taken away? Absolutely. However, if they are no longer Independent, the player should be able to replace them without a lot of difficulty or inconvenience.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

Perhaps if you could get a refund on the item when you upgrade, it would be OK. You pay 10 points for a basic sword but then when you find the magic one with +1 OCV, you get 10 points back from the basic sword, and then pay 15 points for the new sword. The main problem I see with that is, why would the players pay points for equipment when they could just spend points on their own characteristics and skills? There would need to be some incentive.

 

Using OAF makes it cheaper, but you could lose the item, and that's very risky. But, you could just make the player's cost half. A flat divide-by-2.

 

Another incentive would be to award "item XP". These points could only be spent for items. I'm not sure what this really buys you in the end though.

 

Thia's "ancestral weapon" idea is great, but I'm wondering what the incentive there is. Does it unlock powers otherwise unavailable to somebody without the ancestral weapon (such as Combat Luck or Find Weakness if you normally disallow those)? That would be cool.

[Korren]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

Ok, I forgot a few points in my original post. Sorry!

 

Yes, I plan to make people pay "full cost" for their spells. The whole "divide by 3" thing sounded kinda random & it just didn't grab me.

 

And, yes, I plan to use OIF/OAF withOUT the Independent. I was gonna ignore the Real Weapon limitation, too, since that would just require me to remember to make sure peopre took care of their weapons.... the magical ones usually don't need 'care', anyway.

 

And, yes, if a person loses or gives up a weapon/armor/item, they would get back the points to invest in something new.... maybe not IMMEDIATELY, but fairly quickly.

 

I was thinking that you don't need to pay for the skills to use the items that you pay for, but, if you DO get weapon/armor/magical-item skills, that allows you to pick up toys you have NOT paid for and use them (for brief periods of time), even if you don't have the points to invest, at that moment.

 

I like the idea of RolePlaying the "investing yourself into the item"... this could be as simple as "attuning oneself" to a magic item. Or figuring out its command words or something.

 

Also, the main reason for doing this is so that I don't have to keep checking unpaid for items on each character sheet, in haversacks & on horses, & guessing and calculating to see if everyone is balanced with each other. I can just add up point totals.

 

I wasn't going to use the STR minimum rules, since when the character pays points for it, they generally know what their STR is. Unless I plan on having a lot of STR Drain traps! LoL

 

Oh, the incentive would be that the Magic Sword (armor, wand, etc) would have special properties or abilities that the character couldn't just spend points to get. Like, the sword that gives 2d6 Luck. I wouldn't just allow a character to buy 2d6 Luck, suddenly, on a whim, just because they have 10 points saved up.

 

Also, I think I would start them with a slightly higher point total, but also give them more XP per session. Not a whole lot, but to be able to afford the nice items that "drop" from their adventures!

 

Thanks,

Corey

[ghost-angel]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

Also' date=' the main reason for doing this is so that I don't have to keep checking unpaid for items on each character sheet, in haversacks & on horses, & guessing and calculating to see if everyone is balanced with each other. I can just add up point totals.[/quote']

Points don't mean balance. Not by a longshot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

I was gonna ignore the Real Weapon limitation' date=' too, since that would just require me to remember to make sure peopre took care of their weapons.... the magical ones usually don't need 'care', anyway.[/quote']

 

"Real weapon" means more than "physical care" in my little world. It means things like "Plate mail won't protect you from damage from falling", "you can't do your sword's HKA damage to a boulder, and it will break the sword" and similar issues that powers aren't burdened with.

[stan da ork]

Re: Make them pay!!

 

I don't think anyone has thrown this out there yet, but have you considered using Resource Pools (or Equipment Pools or whatever they are called)? I believe they are covered in Dark Champions, and I've only heard the rules through other posts on this board, so if I screw them up, maybe someone with the book can correct me. But I think they go something like this:

 

Each character spends however many points they want on a Resource Pool. At any point in time, a character can only have a number of points worth of equipment equal to their Resource Pool. Usually, when using this system, the point cost of a piece of equipment includes Independent, since you can lose it forever (although you don't lose the Resouce Pool points, and can find something else to replace it). So the warrior might have a Resource Pool of 25, allowing him to have a couple weapons and some decent armor; whereas the mage, who spent points on spells, can only have a Resource Pool of maybe 10 or 15, so maybe he can only have some light armor and a single weapon. This allows warrior types to still have a better equipment selection than the wizard types, but provides some limits so people can't just cart around a golf bag full of different swords.