Duration Caps on Spells?

[Thia Halmades]

So if someone purchases the spell Flight, how do I keep them from Flying all day on one spell? What's a 'normal' duration for something like that? Is it instant? Do I force them to buy it as a Continuing Charge? Is there a built in mechanic I'm unaware of that automatically prohibits this?

 

Help?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

One way to do it is with the Lingering power.

 

Flight is, by default, Constant. Lingering leaves the spell "in effect" on the caster but is only active when the player decides to use it. Lingering, however, for a full day is +1 3/4 for a Constant spell.

 

Another way is simply just apply a limitation. I don't think a full day is limiting so it would be a -0 limitation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

A full day isn't limiting, but I want something closer to d20 mechanics instead of the normal "Fly until you're done flying" bit. If I do that, they'll never land. However, under a Charge mechanic, it may force the use of a Continuing Charge to account for its Constant effect, since the PC can't spend END.

 

That might do it. I think.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

So if someone purchases the spell Flight' date=' how do I keep them from [i']Flying[/i] all day on one spell? What's a 'normal' duration for something like that? Is it instant? Do I force them to buy it as a Continuing Charge? Is there a built in mechanic I'm unaware of that automatically prohibits this?

 

Help?

 

Make them keep track of Long Term END usage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Can't, using Charges on spells in the VPP structure. For Sorcery it might work differently, as they use END to fuel their spells, but that's also a good point, John.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

It sounds like you want Lingering. The other option is to use a Fuel Charge of, say, an 1 Hour.

 

I think I need to see how you are doing the spell system thus far to help you out. Do you have an example you can share?

[John Desmarais]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Can't' date=' using Charges on spells in the VPP structure. For Sorcery it might work differently, as they use END to fuel their spells, but that's also a good point, John.[/quote']

 

Continuing Charges? (this would give you a preset amount of time that that spell is active - and then it just shuts down)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Yah yah, Continuing Charge is the answer in the VPP/Wizard format, but not the answer for the Sorcery format if I go with an EC, as I'm planning on doing. I need to find a way to curb their effects so they don't get out of hand, even if the duration is "a scene." Hrm.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

One way to do it is with the Lingering power.

 

Flight is, by default, Constant. Lingering leaves the spell "in effect" on the caster but is only active when the player decides to use it. Lingering, however, for a full day is +1 3/4 for a Constant spell.

 

Another way is simply just apply a limitation. I don't think a full day is limiting so it would be a -0 limitation.

Lingering only applies to Instant Powers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

So if someone purchases the spell Flight' date=' how do I keep them from [i']Flying[/i] all day on one spell? What's a 'normal' duration for something like that? Is it instant? Do I force them to buy it as a Continuing Charge? Is there a built in mechanic I'm unaware of that automatically prohibits this?

 

Help?

If using Charges, just make it a continuing Charge.

 

Here are a few examples:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Elementalism&Category=Aeromancy#Lesser Windriding

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Elementalism&Category=Aeromancy#Windrider

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Elementalism&Category=Aeromancy#Lord of the Sky

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Levitate

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Personal Levitation

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Fly

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Gaseous Form

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Phantom Steed

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Improved Fly

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Reliable Personal Levitation

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Mass Improved Fly

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Master of the Skies

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Master of the Skies (Megascale Variant)

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Superior Fly

 

 

 

If using END then its just a Power and they can Fly as long as they pay END.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Yah yah' date=' [i']Continuing Charge[/i] is the answer in the VPP/Wizard format, but not the answer for the Sorcery format if I go with an EC, as I'm planning on doing. I need to find a way to curb their effects so they don't get out of hand, even if the duration is "a scene." Hrm.

First off, examine that assumption. Characters using EC's are paying a lot of points for their abilities expressly so that they can use them (potentially) all of the time. If you are going to dispose of that major ROI aspect of EC's you are effectively nuetering the entire framework and characters that use it.

 

Honestly, before you start making major decisions, you really should create a few characters and just run them against each other and against some stock opponents. Just sit down with some dice, character sheets, a hex map, and some free time. Set up a little scenario and slug it out. It helps to get a player to assist, but you can do this by yourself. Take some notes. You'll think of other scenarios, test them too. Take more notes. When done, analyze notes and experience, make some decisions, go back into the design phase.

 

What you don't want to do is overengineer something you havent field tested yet. Prototype, test, analyze, adjust, repeat -- eventually you'll stop adjusting and have a release version. Otherwise you'll make a lot of faulty decisions without solid underpinnings, do a lot of work down that path, and eventually get to a point that youve got a flawed mess on your hands that youve invested a lot of time into, and you can either invest more time to refactor it, or toss it entirely.

 

Believe me, I speak from experience on that one.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

That would be why I posted, to get results. I can't sit down and run combats by myself - it bores me to death. I'm a writer, and I'm learning this system to free up my hands to make writing my games easier. That's really the goal. I actually fall under the "draft me a setting that I can abuse and give me access to the core math" camp. I tinker by nature, but at heart, I'm a writer. I'm not going to compare notes for hours on end. I am running a campaign one-shot to get a feel for the system, running NPCs and what have you, and that's working very well.

 

If your opinion is, "That's how an EC works" and to not mess with it, that's enough for me. There's a balance between learning how to do (such as build a Babau, despite your build, I'm taking your advice and doing it myself) and knowing when to listen to experience (as I am) and when to forge my own path (chucking what all y'all say and just going for it). Besides, anything I break I can fix later.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Lingering only applies to Instant Powers.

Page 257 of Fantasy hero says at the GM's Option it can be used on Constant spells. One of the examples provided is Flight.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Or, that. Thanks, SS.

[Curufea]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

There should be an increased difficulty skill roll limitiation.

Over a period of time, a cummulative negative modifier to skill rolls to keep a spell from failing.

 

i.e.

Flight for one hour requires no roll. Second hour - roll of Magic Skill, third hour -1 to roll, fourth -2 to roll etc..

[austenandrews]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Yah yah' date=' [i']Continuing Charge[/i] is the answer in the VPP/Wizard format, but not the answer for the Sorcery format if I go with an EC, as I'm planning on doing. I need to find a way to curb their effects so they don't get out of hand, even if the duration is "a scene." Hrm.

Honestly, I've never been able to fathom the weird hangup with END/Charges in ECs. I would suggest tossing out the whole "Charges must apply to the whole EC" business, if it interferes with your concept. (Unless there's some inference I'm supposed to make from the "Sorcery format" reference - I haven't played a TSR game in twenty years.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Page 257 of Fantasy hero says at the GM's Option it can be used on Constant spells. One of the examples provided is Flight.

Thats not the same thing. Lingering applied to CONSTANT SPELLS is a special use that opens an "activation window" between the time the spell is cast and the time it is activated (normally these two times are the same).

 

Once the spell is activated it works like a normal Constant Power and its duration is determined normally for a Constant Power.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Maybe I'm misreading the rules, but under constant it says, "by applying the Lingering Advantage described above" and under instant it specifies, "he's alread activated it one or more times".

 

If I'm wrong in my understanding of it, the high price for Lingering on a Constant spell with reduced benefits seems not worth it at all. Especially since what you would be describing is simply Trigger.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Maybe I'm misreading the rules' date=' but under constant it says, "by applying the Lingering Advantage described above" and under instant it specifies, "he's alread activated it one or more times".[/quote']

I think you are trying to mix two different rules snippets. Lingering applied to Instant Powers has a different effect than Lingering applied to Constant Powers.

 

It all boils down to the minutia of Duration of Powers, which a suprising number of people seem to be fuzzy on.

 

The gist of what FH is saying is that NORMALLY a character turns a Constant Power like Flight on or off as they please, paying END when they use it and while it is active.

 

However when a Constant Power is turned into a SPELL with one or more initialization-type Limitations that hinder the way the Power effect is turned on then you might think that you could just do whatever was necessary to comply with the initialization based Limitation(s) and then have the Power effect just kind of hang about waiting to be turned on like a normal unlimited Constant Power would be.

 

FH says that isnt kosher. It states that such a Spell must be used or lost at CASTING TIME -- the CASTING and USAGE must be sequential. You can't for instance incant, dance in a circle, and fling pixie dust when you wake up in the morning and then burst into flight when it is most convenient in the evening; you must cast right before you fly.

 

The Lingering Advantage can, at the GM's option, but applied to open a time interval, or a "window" as the book calls it, between CASTING TIME and USAGE for a Constant Power used as a Spell.

 

Using Lingering in that fashion, you could incant, dance in a circle, and opt to not fly until the evening when it is most convenient, for instance. It merely decouples INITIALIZATION and IMPLEMENTATION.

 

So you do all the annoying an potentially interruptible initialization stuff to comply with the Lims on the Power, and then walk around until you feel like using the Power effect (within the duration of the Lingering).

 

 

If I'm wrong in my understanding of it, the high price for Lingering on a Constant spell with reduced benefits seems not worth it at all. Especially since what you would be describing is simply Trigger.

 

Whether that is worth bothering with is another question. My opinion is that its generally not, and I've never used Lingering in that fashion, nor seen anyone use it in that fashion. I don't think that version of Lingering is cost effective, personally (the more normal version applied to Instant Powers on the other hand is frequently very worth it for Attack Spells).

 

So in otherwords, I would agree with you that it generally isnt worth it, and I wouldnt recommend it generally speaking.

 

In point of fact it is NOT the same as Trigger though; there are subtle differences. However, that is a niggling point since I agree with you that Trigger is on the whole entirely better than Lingering applied to Constant Powers, and I use Triggers a lot when I make Spell and spell-like powers, as a perusal of my body of work reveals. In fact, Triggers figure prominently in several of my Magic Systems.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Sorry, AA, I appear to have confused you.

 

Wizards: Limited VPP using charges on spells (all spells have one charge; each spell must be memmed and slotted into the VPP prior to its casting. To cast a spell multiple times you must memorize it multiple times.)

 

Sorcerors: Elemental Control (Sorcery, Specify Form [i.e., ice, fire, flaming eyeballs] and build spells into the effect of the form. Shields are made of ice; magic missiles have an 'ice like effect' and so on. Sorcery is designed to use END. Wizards use Charges.)

 

That's why I was concerned; it isn't that I care whether the Sorceror casts Flight all day long; it's that I don't want them casting it once and never worrying about it again.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Just to be clear, you do realize that the "ELEMENTAL" in Elemental Control does not literally mean one of the four Elements right? An SFX the GM approves is usable, including "Magic".

 

 

Basically FH indicates that if they cast they must use the Spell immediately, and the implication is that if they stop using it for any period of time, then they must recast it. This is all assuming they have Incantations, Gestures, that sort of Lim that requires steps to be taken to turn on the Spell.

 

There is a reason why in my Magic System that uses an Elemental Control, I specifically mention that the Powers should not be Limited in such a fashion as to be "Spell like", under Allowable Limitations....

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/aeldenaren.shtml

 

Aeldenari don't "cast Spells"; they just use their Gifts. As every Aeldenari might have a unique set of Powers with differing activation limitations, each Power may require different activation methods, however these activation methods should not be "Spell-like".

Concentration, Extra Time, Extra Endurance, and Side Effects are all very common and appropriate Activation Limitations.

 

{and so on....}

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

Wholly aware; that's just a generic reference that was likely done based on the easy word association, and that the Sorceror in my campaign uses "Ice" as her theme already. That's all, was more of a self-reference than any sort of log-headed assumption.

[austenandrews]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

That's why I was concerned; it isn't that I care whether the Sorceror casts Flight all day long; it's that I don't want them casting it once and never worrying about it again.

Okay, I gotcha now. So you're strictly concerned about the sorcerer never "landing," as a way to avoid the startup Limitations. Presumably the END cost alone isn't sufficient. My first instinct would be to put an in-game qualifier in the power, like "Flight turns off if the caster's feet touch the ground" or "Flight only lasts as long as the time spent casting it." That would still allow a munchkin to game the spell, of course. If you want to avoid that, just specify a time limit: "Flight can be maintained no longer than an hour." Is there any reason it can't be that simple?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

None at all, actually, I was just wondering if I was defeating some inherent law in HERO by doing it that way. The question is a matter of expressing it with the proper mechanics, although a flat rule about durations of Constants (including things like "Feet touching ground" could work).

 

Thanks. I prefer simplicity whenever possible.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duration Caps on Spells?

 

None at all, actually, I was just wondering if I was defeating some inherent law in HERO by doing it that way. The question is a matter of expressing it with the proper mechanics, although a flat rule about durations of Constants (including things like "Feet touching ground" could work).

 

Thanks. I prefer simplicity whenever possible.

Consider -- you have an EC. You have a slot built on FLIGHT. Your Magic System requires END. For every 10 AP used in a Phase, the character pays 1 END; the minimum END is 1. The slot has 1/2 DCV Concentration and Incantations.

 

To turn on the Flight the character must Incant and will also go to 1/2 DCV until their next Phase. While they use their Flight, they are paying END. As long they are paying END, they are keeping Flight active at some cost to their END total. If they stop paying END even for a Phase, the Power turns off.

 

To reactivate it they must Incant again, and also go to 1/2 DCV until their next Phase.

 

So what's the problem? There is a very clear and logically consistent control for how long the Power remains active -- as long as the character pays END for it.

 

 

Now, if the Flight also had Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), in that case it is normal for all such 0 END Constant Spells to have a declared duration or reasonably common way of turning them off. That's standard HERO. At this point you can set any duration you want, or some condition that will deactivate the Flight. It is important however that you realize this is not a LIMITATION, and any such condition named should not handicap the Power -- it should be a fair and reasonable check on it, not a neutering of it.