Worst comic book superfight ever

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

IMO, the worst comic fight ever...number one with a bullet...although you wouldn't be able to see a bullet in this ridiculous piece of pap by the biggest hack to ever work in the industry...none other than John Byrne himself...took place in Alpha Flight #5 where Snowbird fought one of the Great Beasts ina raging snowstorm therby allowing Byrne to render the ebntire fight with nothing but 5 pages of completely blank panels (it's a blinding snowstorm dontcha know?), SFX and some dialogue. This had to be the biggest, most offensive sclck job by the biggest and most offensive sclckmeister to ever darken (or in this case lighten) the industry. Completely deplorable crap which he repeated 7 issues later when he callously killed of the sympbol of Canada in a trivial way. Way to go, JB.

 

Vigil

OK, you win, that was worse.

 

Repped.

 

But SM v FL is still pretty bad!

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Spidey Sense makes Spiderman essentially unhittable by any non area effect attacks. This has been shown numerous times in continuity. So often that I don't think I need to even defend this point.

So you are claiming that Spider-Man has NEVER been hit by a non-AE punch? Not a single time in his carreer?

 

I'm sure others can provide counter examples.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Incidentally and this is just speculation' date=' but I'm pretty certain that Heralds can get extra defenses through their VPPs. Which might explain why their defenses are higher in certain issues than other issues. Against Thor, Firelord would max his defenses, but against Spiderman, he might have considered it a blow to his personal pride to have to do so.[/quote']

Is there a single thought baloon in any apperance of Firelord that would indicate this "personal pride" "warrior code" or "I'll only use part of my power to be fair" attitude? Seems very out of character to me.

 

That he might have had his VPP or Multipower set to Max his attacks, yes, I'll buy that, but then each miss should have resulted in a smoking crater rather than a leveled building.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Presumes Spider-Man never runs out of END. Once he starts burning STUN' date=' he's toast. The Down Side of a 10 Speed. Or are you now going to claim he KO'ed Firelord without Pushing?[/quote']

 

 

All he has to do is to make FL burn more stun than he does End. Considering how SM has been portrayed throughout his entire existence, I can easily see him having 1/2 end on his powers. So 2 End per attack. All SM has to do is inflict more than 2 Stun to FL per attack and he can eventually win.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So you are claiming that Spider-Man has NEVER been hit by a non-AE punch? Not a single time in his carreer?

 

I'm sure others can provide counter examples.

 

 

I can provide entire issues where he has never been hit by a non-AE attack. And some where he can even dodge area effects. So yes, him avoiding a hit in a single story arc, especially when fighting at peak efficiency, is entirely consistent with how he's been portrayed throughout his entire existence.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Presumes Spider-Man never runs out of END. Once he starts burning STUN' date=' he's toast. The Down Side of a 10 Speed. Or are you now going to claim he KO'ed Firelord without Pushing?[/quote'] Presumes Endurance is as dear for Spider-Man as for a typical Champions character.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Is there a single thought baloon in any apperance of Firelord that would indicate this "personal pride" "warrior code" or "I'll only use part of my power to be fair" attitude? Seems very out of character to me.

 

That he might have had his VPP or Multipower set to Max his attacks, yes, I'll buy that, but then each miss should have resulted in a smoking crater rather than a leveled building.

 

 

I already posted the scan where he declared that there would be no honor in killing Spiderman by using area effects. That's plausibly declaring that he'll use "only a part of my power to be fair", even if it isn't explicitly stated.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Is there a single thought baloon in any apperance of Firelord that would indicate this "personal pride" "warrior code" or "I'll only use part of my power to be fair" attitude? Seems very out of character to me.

 

That he might have had his VPP or Multipower set to Max his attacks, yes, I'll buy that, but then each miss should have resulted in a smoking crater rather than a leveled building.

Does a character's qualities have to hit everyone over the head by an official declaration in a comic book? Do we ignore what we learn about a character through actual stories because of a claim he made in a fit of anger or because of a write-up that doesn't fit what we've seen in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe?

 

Do we pretend that Spider-Man's consistent effectiveness against high-powered opponents isn't part of his story because the Enforcers have occasionally caused him problems when we could just as easily turn it around and pretend that Spider-Man shouldn't have had the Enforcers cause him problems? OR do we try to find a way that allows us to understand that both aspects of Spider-Man are part of continuity?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Firelord explicitly stated that his code of honor prevented him from using area effects against Spiderman.

 

From ASM 270

 

Thank you. I KNEW I remembered that. I assume I will see a Chuckg apology for his misremembering as I read through the posts accumulated since yesterday.

 

EDIT: Nope.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wow, so on one page, the writer has Firelord saying that he'll kill Spider-Man if he has to tear the planet apart.

 

And on another page, he has Firelord saying that his honor will not be satisfied with anything other than personal combat, and that destroying the city would be a no-no.

 

Well, that most definitely nails it down 100%.

 

Sloppy, inconsistent writing.

 

Because what the !#%!@%!@% else can you call having the same character say the exactly opposite thing against himself in rapid succession for no external reason?

 

Yes - clearly NO ONE in the real world ever has a quick thought (like "I'll quit my job before I'll do that") and then changes their mind ("Actually, it's not so bad in the big picture and I need the paycheque.")

[SKJAM!]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

While Spidey vs. Firelord has never been contradicted since by Marvel, I don't think it's been referenced much either. (Have they even ever been in the same room since?)

 

Of course, if I want to be silly, I can come up with an explanation that will work in the current continuity. The fight happened mostly like it appeared in the comic book, but all the environmental tricks Spidey came up with did no more than momentarily distract Firelord. Then, just as Firelord finally cornered Spider-Man, he was sucker-punched by the Sentry who had just shown up. The Avengers followed and praised Spidey for actually managing to stay intact long enough for Sentry to arrive.

 

Then the memory of Sentry was erased, and Spider-Man now remembers that flurry of desperate punches as what took Firelord down, because obviously something did.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

While Spidey vs. Firelord has never been contradicted since by Marvel, I don't think it's been referenced much either. (Have they even ever been in the same room since?)

 

Of course, if I want to be silly, I can come up with an explanation that will work in the current continuity. The fight happened mostly like it appeared in the comic book, but all the environmental tricks Spidey came up with did no more than momentarily distract Firelord. Then, just as Firelord finally cornered Spider-Man, he was sucker-punched by the Sentry who had just shown up. The Avengers followed and praised Spidey for actually managing to stay intact long enough for Sentry to arrive.

 

Then the memory of Sentry was erased, and Spider-Man now remembers that flurry of desperate punches as what took Firelord down, because obviously something did.

No, because the reader's memories weren't erased.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Chuck, do you have an issue number where Cap punched out Rhino? I had a discussion awhile ago about whether Cap could do damage to a vault door and this would be relevant.

 

I think Cap should be able to 12d6 maximum based on what he's done in the comics, but this would change things.

 

Could be in the early '70's where Cap temporarily had superhuman strength due to a reaction of Viper's chemiocals with his own souped up system.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I already posted the scan where he declared that there would be no honor in killing Spiderman by using area effects. That's plausibly declaring that he'll use "only a part of my power to be fair"' date=' even if it isn't explicitly stated.[/quote']

Thank you, I had missed that earlier.

 

Still seems out of character to me. Vengence seems to have been the character's driving motivation, not Honor.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Of course, if I want to be silly, I can come up with an explanation that will work in the current continuity. The fight happened mostly like it appeared in the comic book, but all the environmental tricks Spidey came up with did no more than momentarily distract Firelord. Then, just as Firelord finally cornered Spider-Man, he was sucker-punched by the Sentry who had just shown up. The Avengers followed and praised Spidey for actually managing to stay intact long enough for Sentry to arrive.

 

Then the memory of Sentry was erased, and Spider-Man now remembers that flurry of desperate punches as what took Firelord down, because obviously something did.

 

Ironically, something like what you propose has already happened (sans the memory wipe), in a well-written Marvel story. New Warriors vs. Terrax, the rematch.

 

The New Warriors, by frantically exerting themselves to their utmost, managed to... keep bystanders from dying during his rampage, and keep Terrax occupied until the Fantastic Four got there.

 

The Fantastic Four, by exerting *themselves* to their utmost, managed to... keep Terrax occupied a while longer.

 

The New Warriors, who were expecting the FF to actually beat the bad guy, were startnig to get really worried. And Reed went 'don't worry. you were just stalling until we got here? well, we're just stalling until somebody I called gets here.'

 

After a little while longer, the Silver Surfer showed up.

 

What made this fight a lot better, of course, is that it didn't have one street-level dude physically overpowering a Herald of Galactus. It had a wielder of the Power Cosmic giving two entire teams (one of them damn experienced) a handful until the big guy got there. And they were still big major heroes, for having repeatedly thrown themselves up against cosmically formidable odds (not to mention having successfully kept any bystanders from dying, and having distracted Terrax from wrecking the entire city) until the trump card finally showed up.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Could be in the early '70's where Cap temporarily had superhuman strength due to a reaction of Viper's chemiocals with his own souped up system.

 

If this is the same thick steel door scene I'm thinking of -- 70s artwork, and the Falcon is there with Cap -- then yes, that's during the temporary superstrength period.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Now you're *really* reaching. Cite me some evidence' date=' what you're doing right now is just wishful thinking.[/quote']

 

Gary is arguing that Firelord's defenses fluctuate. The comics clearly support this, given his variable durability. The books themselves are the evidence. The support for the view Spidey reasonably could have won is all there. It depends on how you want to interpret the evidence. Your opinion is one valid interpretation. It is not, however (as yuou seem to believe) the only valid interpretation.

 

Personally, I don't think the writer has to spell out every tiny nuance. It's the same as when the GM, at the end of the battle, provides the villain's character sheet for detailed analysis instaed of letting the things that happened in combat stand on their own SFX.

 

ASIDE: 30 pages...this is going to outlast the previous one, isn't it?

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I can provide entire issues where he has never been hit by a non-AE attack. And some where he can even dodge area effects. So yes' date=' him avoiding a hit in a single story arc, especially when fighting at peak efficiency, is entirely consistent with how he's been portrayed throughout his entire existence.[/quote']

I seem to recall one issue where he was hit repetedly, and almost killed, by Kingpin. In fact it was only the intervention of Vanessa that prevented Fisk from killing Spidy. And, again IIRC, no mention that the Spider-sense wasn't working. Can't find the issue #, little help anyone?

 

Kind of lets the air out of the "spider sense makes him unhitable" hypothesis.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ironically, something like what you propose has already happened (sans the memory wipe), in a well-written Marvel story. New Warriors vs. Terrax, the rematch.

 

The New Warriors, by frantically exerting themselves to their utmost, managed to... keep bystanders from dying during his rampage, and keep Terrax occupied until the Fantastic Four got there.

 

The Fantastic Four, by exerting *themselves* to their utmost, managed to... keep Terrax occupied a while longer.

 

The New Warriors, who were expecting the FF to actually beat the bad guy, were startnig to get really worried. And Reed went 'don't worry. you were just stalling until we got here? well, we're just stalling until somebody I called gets here.'

 

After a little while longer, the Silver Surfer then swooped in and one-punched Terrax.

 

What made this fight a lot better, of course, is that it didn't have one street-level dude physically overpowering a Herald of Galactus. It had a wielder of the Power Cosmic giving two entire teams (one of them damn experienced) a handful until the big guy got there.

IIRC Terrax was proclaimed to be the mightiest of Galactus' heralds, with the Silver Surfer just below him. All the others were distinctly less powerful (Maybe Galactus was finally wising up).

 

Of course, even Terrax might reasonably be dropped by a high speed Move By from Norrin Radd. How many dice does a character moving at ½ C do?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Gary is arguing that Firelord's defenses fluctuate. The comics clearly support this' date=' given his variable durability. The books themselves are the evidence.[/quote']

 

The very point under contention is whether or not the books are being written inconsistently. To try and use that very inconsistency as evidence for your position, with nothing else backing it up, and indeed against indicators in stories elsewhere, is not so much an argument as a contradiction, as Monty Python would put it.

 

For example, we see a character flip-flop his position very rapidly for no reason that's either shown or implied on the page. I say 'inconsistent writing!' You say 'no, obviously he just changed his mind for... whatever reason!' (paraphrasing, obviously)

 

Again we run into the difficulty where your initial starting assumption is always that the writer simply can't possibly have made any mistakes, and that if there's anything inconsistent on a page, it must be for some other reason... even if there's no evidence for that reason except the very inconsistency that's the point of contention in the first place. This is not arguing from evidence, it's arguing from assumption. It's circular reasoning -- you're using your postulates to 'prove' your conclusion.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> IIRC Terrax was proclaimed to be the mightiest of Galactus' heralds,

> with the Silver Surfer just below him. All the others were distinctly less

> powerful (Maybe Galactus was finally wising up).

 

Depends. Terrax has had his ups and downs over the years. There was a long period of time, after having lost Galactus' favor, where the dude was severely weakened. Heck, there was a period he didn't have the Power Cosmic at all, Galactus had stripped him as punishment.

 

He seems to have gotten his full powers back after helping Galactus and the Herald squad out during some of the 90s cosmic crossovers, though.

 

> Of course, even Terrax might reasonably be dropped by a high speed

> Move By from Norrin Radd. How many dice does a character moving at

> ½ C do?

 

Eh, it's the Surfer, we know perfectly well he can punk any other member of the Herald family. It's what he does.

 

Not sure if he used a MegaSpeed Move By or some other finisher move, though.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I seem to recall one issue where he was hit repetedly, and almost killed, by Kingpin. In fact it was only the intervention of Vanessa that prevented Fisk from killing Spidy. And, again IIRC, no mention that the Spider-sense wasn't working. Can't find the issue #, little help anyone?

 

Kind of lets the air out of the "spider sense makes him unhitable" hypothesis.

 

 

The 'any given Sunday' syndrome. He had a good day vs Firelord and a bad day vs Kingpin. In thousands of issues, there are many where nobody lays a glove on him. In issue 283 with Creel and Titania, they never touch him even throwing stuff that would be classified as Area Effect in Champions terms. Except for when Titania grabbed him after he was distracted by Creel. And then he promptly Martial Escaped and reversed the hold.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That Spidey has a very high DCV, nobody is arguing. It'd be like trying to claim that he didn't stick to walls. He obviously does, you can see him do it in damn near every issue.

 

But that Spidey is "effectively unhittable", we most definitely *are* arguing. He's not. You *can* hit him, even with the Spidey-Sense. It's just not easy.

 

But heck, even goobers like pre-superpowers Tombstone have managed to (correction) connect a punch with Spidey at least once out of fifteen tries. Like the man said earlier about END use... Spidey might be the best dodger in the world, but if you can keep trying for long enough, eventually he's gonna get tired. A lot of the hits Spidey has taken over the years have been because of endurance limitations.

 

Note that in the Firelord fight, both Spidey and Firelord comment on the endurance issue... and who it favors.

 

(add) A partial list of people who have hit Spider-Man with either HTH or ranged attacks, going from memory:

 

* Green Goblin (both with and without that gas that neutralizes the Spider-Sense)

* Molten Man

* Tombstone (with superpowers, and IIRC, without)

* Sin-Eater(?)

* Daredevil

* Wolverine

* Iron Fist(?) (not entirely certain)

* The Kingpin (already mentioned)

* The Punisher (although to be fair, if you argued for this one to be thrown out as a "Spider-Man vs. Firelord" case, I'd agree with you)

 

Some of the people on this list, like Logan and Iron Fist, are ye grand masters of the maxed-out OCV, yes.

 

Some, otoh, are not. And yet they still tag Spidey occasionally.

 

Granted, it is only 'occasionally'. Most of the time, he'll bounce around and laugh. But when you're facing an opponent whose first hit will atomize you, 'occasionally' is still too damn dangerous.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The very point under contention is whether or not the books are being written inconsistently. To try and use that very inconsistency as evidence for your position, with nothing else backing it up, and indeed against indicators in stories elsewhere, is not so much an argument as a contradiction, as Monty Python would put it.

 

For example, we see a character flip-flop his position very rapidly for no reason that's either shown or implied on the page. I say 'inconsistent writing!' You say 'no, obviously he just changed his mind for... whatever reason!' (paraphrasing, obviously)

 

Again we run into the difficulty where your initial starting assumption is always that the writer simply can't possibly have made any mistakes, and that if there's anything inconsistent on a page, it must be for some other reason... even if there's no evidence for that reason except the very inconsistency that's the point of contention in the first place. This is not arguing from evidence, it's arguing from assumption. It's circular reasoning -- you're using your postulates to 'prove' your conclusion.

Your argument is circular reasoning. What has been consistently portrayed about Spider-Man is going to be ignored by you because you would prefer to base your theory on what you think should be consistently portrayed for Firelord.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> IIRC Terrax was proclaimed to be the mightiest of Galactus' heralds,

> with the Silver Surfer just below him. All the others were distinctly less

> powerful (Maybe Galactus was finally wising up).

 

Depends. Terrax has had his ups and downs over the years. There was a long period of time, after having lost Galactus' favor, where the dude was severely weakened. Heck, there was a period he didn't have the Power Cosmic at all, Galactus had stripped him as punishment.

 

He seems to have gotten his full powers back after helping Galactus and the Herald squad out during some of the 90s cosmic crossovers, though.

 

> Of course, even Terrax might reasonably be dropped by a high speed

> Move By from Norrin Radd. How many dice does a character moving at

> ½ C do?

 

Eh, it's the Surfer, we know perfectly well he can punk any other member of the Herald family. It's what he does.

 

Not sure if he used a MegaSpeed Move By or some other finisher move, though.

Eh, it's Spider-Man, we should all know perfectly well he can rise up to any challenge no matter what the odds. It's what he does.