Worst comic book superfight ever

[KA.]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If this is West Coast Avengers we're talking about' date=' he was taken down by Hellcat and Tigra. He was going to tear their heads off when they ripped his suit open, at which point it was mostly Tigra taking him down by choking him out with her legs and tail around his neck.[/quote']

 

This is the first time in my life I have ever actually dreamed of being Tiger Shark.

 

 

KA.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This is the first time in my life I have ever actually dreamed of being Tiger Shark.

 

 

KA.

 

You and me both.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spidey got beat by Frog-Man?

 

Not if he were dead drunk, blindfolded, handcuffed behind his back, and had boat anchors chained to both feet.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What, you were expecting consistency?

 

The cooler character will win the fight cause that's what the fans want. Respective power and/or skill levels have nothing to do with it. Unfortunately so, when it's done badly.

 

Actually, yes, I do expect consistency. Granted that comics writers aren't making Bill Gates money, they're still being paid a fairly good living. Not to mention what the damn comics themselves cost *us*, per issue.

 

In return for that amount of cha-ching, I want them to work at least as hard at their jobs as I have to at mine. 'Cause if I turned in work as sloppy as this, my *** would be fired so fast it would be leaving a contrail.

 

(add) Actually, more accurate phrasing would be 'I demand consistency.' Given the recent body of work from Marvel and DC, actually expecting consistency would be a mug's game. Doesn't change my dissatisfaction level, though, merely my anticipation level.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This is the first time in my life I have ever actually dreamed of being Tiger Shark.

 

 

For Tigra? It's hardly necessary. If you're male, recently bathed, and have a pulse, your odds are at least even. Girl is a *skank*.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hell, Kyle has still had a better grasp of tactics than that when he was so brain-fried by "neural chaff" that he couldn't concentrate enough to do more than make a few green sparks.

 

No, seriously. JLA #18 (or was it 19?), Prometheus hits Kyle with a nerve-scrambling attack so hard that Kyle can barely stand up, let alone concentrate enough willpower to use the ring... and Kyle *still* doesn't go 'I'll punch him!' Instead, he goes down still trying to fire off an EB or a Force Wall containment bubble while struggling with a really wicked Mental Entangle.

 

I remember that, yeah. Great example. The first one I remembered was when he was captured by the Manhunters. They were actively vivisecting Kyle... as in he was being cut open and his organs manipulated while he was still conscious and feeling everything... and he was still able to marshall the willpower to use his ring remotely to escape. And never once did he throw a punch.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What, you were expecting consistency?

 

The cooler character will win the fight cause that's what the fans want. Respective power and/or skill levels have nothing to do with it. Unfortunately so, when it's done badly.

 

Right on.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, yes, I do expect consistency. Granted that comics writers aren't making Bill Gates money, they're still being paid a fairly good living. Not to mention what the damn comics themselves cost *us*, per issue.

 

In return for that amount of cha-ching, I want them to work at least as hard at their jobs as I have to at mine. 'Cause if I turned in work as sloppy as this, my *** would be fired so fast it would be leaving a contrail.

 

(add) Actually, more accurate phrasing would be 'I demand consistency.' Given the recent body of work from Marvel and DC, actually expecting consistency would be a mug's game. Doesn't change my dissatisfaction level, though, merely my anticipation level.

 

I don't expect it... I just hope for it.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The one time I can remember Kyle deliberately choosing fisticuffs was when he was going after those two low-rent goons who'd gay-bashed his best friend into a coma.

 

And then it was a deliberate 'See this power ring? I'm putting it in my pocket. I don't *need* it to wipe the floor with your bigoted faces. And now, for my next impression... Batman, playing 'Concerto For Human Agony In A Dark Alley', in B-flat.'

 

And he then proceeded to punch 'em into an emergency room visit. But the point is, Kyle knew he was facing two unarmed schmos, and he was deliberately trying to make a point. Vs. any serious martial artist, Kyle knows damn well that he needs to fight at range.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't expect it... I just hope for it.

 

I'm not even hoping much any longer. The only DC comics I'm still looking at, I do so because I write informal reviews of comics on another message board(*). Ditto Marvel. The only two comics I actually read for pleasure anymore are by, of all things, Wildstorm and Image. (MAJESTIC and INVINCIBLE, respectively).

 

 

 

(*) The aforementioned 'Death Spiral', actually. I look upon it as a public service, helping to tell people where *NOT* to spend their money this week. It's been lagging some though recently -- bad comics fatigue. We're starting to run out of synonyms for "awful".

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Many of the Authority fights are just godawful. They all should have died about 15 times already.

Garth Ennis is a funny writer, but they should keep him away from non-Punisher heroes, because the Plot-Induced-Stupidity is just working overtime there to find ways to embarrass and humiliate them.

 

I like Exiles, but Eeeeevil Hyperion's claim to have killed Galactus nearly made me spit coca-cola over my comic book. Not even on Galactus' weakest day would a Superman ripoff give him problems.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Agreed on Authority. (add -- btw, I so want Majestic to finally get fed up with their totalitarian ways and just smoke their butts. Double bonus points if I get Zealot slicing Midnighter a good one and Savant making friends with the Carrier and convincing it to go off on an extended road trip with her, leaving the Authority high and dry. )

 

*Definitely* agreed on Garth Ennis Punisher. That guy has a Jobber Aura that would embarass Loeb Superman. Any 'conventional' superhero that crosses over into an Ennis Punisher comic can rest assured, they will be magically reduced to cretinous levels, and deliberately humiliated in the bargain.

 

And as for Evil Hyperion's claim to have killed Galactus -- my reaction to that is 'please tell me he used the Ultimate Nullifier. *please* tell me he used the Ultimate Nullifier. *PLEASE* tell me he used the Ultimate Nullifier...'

 

(Of course, if he'd used the Ultimate Nullifier, there'd be a slight problem with his continuing to exist, but hey, inconsistent as that would be, that would still be far less stupid than the idea of punching Galactus to death. *rolleyes*)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, I presume he zapped him with his "irresistable flash vision"(which he seems vulnerable to), and Galactus went "Aaargh!" or something...

 

...or maybe he just died laughing.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I suppose the most sanity-saving explanation that we can come up with was that Evil Hyperion was simply lying. We only had his unsupported word for it, after all, and he's just the kind of megalomanical blowhard that would make impossible claims.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I suppose the most sanity-saving explanation that we can come up with was that Evil Hyperion was simply lying. We only had his unsupported word for it' date=' after all, and he's just the kind of megalomanical blowhard that would make impossible claims.[/quote']

Yeah, if I ever met the writer, I'd want him to patiently explain to me how it was even remotely possible for Hypes to kill an immensely powerful being who's essentially composed of energy(and thus not susceptible to, say, having his neck broken) and who is probably more powerful than the beings who created the Eternals(of which Hyperion is supposed to be a member).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah' date=' if I ever met the writer, I'd want him to patiently explain to me how it was even remotely possible for Hypes to kill an immensely powerful being who's essentially composed of energy(and thus not susceptible to, say, having his neck broken) and who is probably more powerful than the beings who [b']created[/b] the Eternals(of which Hyperion is supposed to be a member).

 

Only plausible explanation, at least to me, is that this occurs in that world's version of the "starving Galactus arrives on earth and is taken down by a coalition of Earth's heroes" storyline from FF. Reed saved the dying Galactus in our continuity. Hyperion killed him (or just let him die and took the credit for it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This has got to be the biggest pile of mad justification to cover for utterly wretched writing I've seen in a long' date=' long time.[/quote']

 

You mean to tell me every time a Herald gets defeated, it's bad writing?

 

- The Surfer can navigate through an asterod field or a meteor shower. How did Ben Grimm get the drop on him way back in FF 48-49, knocking him back, off his pins (HUH? wasn't Surfer supposed to be durable) so he lands in Alicia Masters' studio, sufficiently stunned that he doesn't immediately return to the fight, but rather has time to converse with Alicia?

 

- Terrax' defeat by alternating heat and cold is discussed already. Aguy who flies from the depths of space into a star and then back out into the depths of space is taken out by temperature fluctuations?

 

- Firelord can disintigrate numerous opponents who Thor and Hercules are ineffectual against, but can't beat, or even injure, Thor or Hercules?

 

How many characters have given the Surfer (generally accepted, in this discussion, as more powerful and more durable than Firelord) a serious fight in his various series? All of these characters are cosmically powerful? Let's just look at his first series:

 

- #2 - The Badoon scout ships (but he can wipe the floor with the Skrull navy).

 

- #4 - he needs enhancement by Loki to be a credible threat against Thor (further supporting the assertion that the weaker Firelord should not have been a credible foe for Thor a few years later)

 

- #5 - stalemated by the Stranger (whom others have mentioned has also gone up against Spidey with less than great results - not an issue I'm familiar with)

 

- #14 - Spider Man (although it's pretty clear Spidey has minimal chance of a win, but then the Surfer is more powerful than Firelord, and Spidey lacked the same motivation to deal with the Surfer)

 

- #15 - fight with the FF, though Surfer has the edge (remember, way back in his earliest days, Spidey was able to make a credible showing against the FF - in the days when the Enforcers gave him trouble)

 

- #17 - taken down by Tony Stark's newest weapon design and captured by SHIELD

 

- #18 - Inhumans are a credible threat against Surfer (makes sense - they're credible against the FF) though Surfer ultimately has the edge

 

In his second series, the Super Skrull was a credible opponent - one guy with the powers of the FF.

 

The consistent pattern for all of the Heralds (drawing from the Surfer above since, as noted by others, he has the vast majority of appearances, and is generally portrayed as the most powerful of the classic Heralds) is that they're very effective against space fleets, pretty much invulnerable in space, but have difficulty dealing with one on one combat with superhumans, on Earth or elsewhere.

 

The power disparity thrown up to say "Spidey shouldn't be able to beat Firelord" isn't as vast, based on both the Heralds' and Spidey's published histories, as the nay sayyers make it out to be. Rather, the durability and power levels of Galactus' heralds seem to vary markedly in their own appearances, and overall they seem to be significantly more powerful in space than planetside.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Perhaps the presence of an atmosphere has a slightly inhibitive effect on their cosmic powers. I doubt it, but...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Perhaps the presence of an atmosphere has a slightly inhibitive effect on their cosmic powers. I doubt it' date=' but...[/quote']

 

It seems a lot more like the structures which exist throughout Superherodom - immune to anything conventional, but able to be harmed by the Supers. Much like Life Support makes you immune to the cold and void of space, but Iceman can still give you frostbite.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As for Herald defeats...

 

The Silver Surfer, despite his vast power, has a built-in excuse for damn near any defeat unless it's coming from somebody who's not powerful enough to nudge him even if he *is* standing still -- he's a freaky space Buddhist who has never, in all his centuries of life, bothered to learn crap about fighting. It's only in cosmic crossovers that he uses his power with anything resembling tactical efficiency, and even then, he usually doesn't bother to make the effort unless his opponent is some overt threat like Thanos. (And Thanos still wipes his behind with the Surfer's face anyway, but given that it's Thanos, that defeat is perfectly legitimate.)

 

Note that his most infamous battle vs. the Hulk consisted largely of standing there and letting the Hulk wail on him, while scratching his chin and trying to figure out why the big green guy was so angry. This is not only a feat for the Surfer's durability, it's also a pointer that him not exactly a combat-type mentality.

 

So I can believe the Surfer just sitting there and not moving after taking a sucker punch from Ben Grimm. He wouldn't even have to be stunned. He actually *does* stand there in the middle of fights and gaze at his navel, even if he's feeling perfectly fine. Unlike many of his fellow Heralds, who used to be macho warrior types back in their mortal life, the Surfer is an introspective pacifist who can waste oodles and oodles of time dithering around contemplating the meaning of life when anybody else would simply make a fist and pound the other dude in the face. (This is one of the primary plot devices by which the SILVER SURFER comic kept their average storyline from ending in five panels.)

 

The rest of your list merely shows that Spider-Man-vs-Firelord is not an isolated sin -- with the power levels they established for Heralds of Galactus, there pretty much is no meaningful way you can have those guys as antagonists vs. Earth-bound superheroes unless the Herald is completely jobbed the heck out. Hence, you get these gaping inconsistencies that really annoy the hell out of some of us.

 

(add -- the alternative, that there is some mysterious power-damping field around Earth that makes Heralds enormously weaker than they are, is disproven by the fact that some of the Surfer's more impressive throwdowns... his fight vs. Nathan Grey, for example... have occurred inside Earth's atmosphere. Not to mention the havok that Doom was wreaking when he'd temporarily stolen the Surfer's powers.)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wow.

Stop mocking us with your keen wit!

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You mean to tell me every time a Herald gets defeated' date=' it's bad writing?[/quote']

 

 

 

Who's talking about "every time"? I'm talking about the one specific time that Firelord was taken down by a guy who had no business being able to take him down: Spider-Man.

 

Bringing in any other fight is irrelevant to any point other than "the writers have been amazingly inconsistent in showing how powerful Heralds of Galactus are". The Heralds are all supposed to be among the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe, but when the writers want, a comparative flyspeck like Spider-Man beats one down?

 

Sorry, but its nothing more but bad writing. No amount of justification on your part can change that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As for Spider-Man vs. the Stranger, if somebody can get an issue #, we can check out the summary on spiderfan.org.

 

Until then, merely mentioning it doesn't show much. Remember, a *lot* of Spidey's wins over heavy hitters have been *indirect* wins -- Juggernaut being lured into the deep vat of concrete, Titania going skydiving without a parachute, etc, etc.

 

These sorts of things give kudos to Spidey's resourcefulness, but it's Spidey's raw power level that's in dispute here, so, these sorts of things, not very useful for benchmarking such.

 

For all we know, Stranger's 'poor showing' vs. Spider-Man was merely an example of 'Spidey jumps around like a bug, annoying the living heck out of the cosmic dude, and then snatches the MacGuffin Du Jour and runs away'. Or something. We don't know. Or at the very least, *I* sure as heck don't know. Not until after I get a look at a summary or somesuch.

 

So, we need details.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Found a posted example of the Surfer's combat savvy:

 

http://img204.exs.cx/img204/5938/silversurfer036031qa.jpg

 

Either he's got one heckuva deadpan sense of humor, or else he honestly didn't notice that She-Hulk's punching him square in the face(1) was actually intended to be a hostile act. Given that this is the Surfer, this is a matter of legitimate doubt.

 

"This young woman sort of bumped into me, and..."

 

(edit -- oh, and notice that in the second panel, she's rubbing her knuckles. She actually hurt her hand punching the Surfer, and he didn't even shift a hair.)

 

 

 

(1) She didn't know who he was, and the intruder alert had gone off in Avengers Mansion.

[KA.]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Since it appears that this is going to be endless anyway, I may as well throw in a few thoughts . . .

 

1) As far as I know,

(and I make no claim whatsoever to be a Marvel Comics authority)

The Silver Surfer was the first Herald.

He ended up defying Galactus and generally being a pain in the rear end, so Galactus exiled him to Earth.

 

Now Galactus is hardly one to share a lot of his thoughts and feelings, so what he may or may not have thought/decided/done off panel is largely open to speculation.

That does not imply that my speculation is any better than anyone else's, it just means that I don't know of anyone, other than perhaps the original creator and/or the people who currently own the license, who can say he absolutely would/would not, do a certain thing off panel.

 

(For all we know he actually can be distracted by delicious Hostess Fruit Pies. )

 

In my view of the world, I can see Galactus, after having been inconvenienced by The Silver Surfer, building a bit of a fail-safe into the Power Cosmic that he grants his Heralds from then on.

 

x points Cosmic Power Pool

+ x points Cosmic Power Pool, only when doing things that benefit Galactus or further his wishes

 

Which means that if Galactus sends you to do his bidding, you have all the points available.

 

If you decide to go out for pizza, and fight with Earthbound super-arachnids, or perhaps decide to join up with Reed Richards and help divert your boss from eating Earth again, you are at a lesser power level.

 

I am not claiming this is Marvel Canon, or that there is direct evidence of it, I am just saying that it is possible, and makes some sense, at least to me.

 

2) Other than space fleets, and alien/demonic constructs, how many people/superheroes has Firelord blasted to atoms/burned to a cinder?

 

I am asking as a legitimate question, not because I already know the answer.

 

I am not trying to say that he doesn't have the power to do so, I am just saying that if he really has as lethal an attitude as has been described, and the power levels described, why aren't there urns scattered all over the Earth containing the dusty remains of those he has destroyed.

 

Either his powers don't work that way (I disbelieve that, because it sounds like he has killed sentient beings of some type in the past, directly, not just by leading his boss to make a buffet of their homeworld), or there is something in his mental makeup that keeps him from doing this as often as he could.

 

I hardly think a "code vs. killing" could apply to someone who finds planets for his boss to eat, but he could have some type of warrior's code, that causes him to respect 'fellow combatants', above the mud crawling peons that make up the rest of the population of the worlds his boss eats.

 

Which could explain why he doesn't just Flame Nuke everyone who ever looks crossways at him.

 

3) Is Firelord so powerful that he can create a stone too heavy for him to lift?

 

Okay, I know that is silly, but what I am trying to get at is this.

All the Heralds are described as having The Power Cosmic.

My take on that has always been something like a Cosmic Power Pool.

Which means that, although they may have a common suite of powers that they use, they could basically do nearly anything with their powers, up to the limits of the pool, or, more importantly in this case, they could do nothing with them at all.

 

It seems like a Herald could choose to go All Defense or All Offense or Anything in Between.

 

It also seems like a Herald could choose to use as much or as little of his power as he felt the situation required.

 

If this wasn't true, then the few times that The Silver Surfer had to interact with anyone other than a Cosmic Level Threat, there would have been nothing left, not even a fine paste.

 

4) And now, finally we get to the point. I don't expect this to convince anyone else, I am just letting you know what allows me to be able to sleep at night, knowing that Spiderman beat Firelord, once.

 

Why does anyone have trouble with a fly in their house?

We are much bigger, stronger, smarter, and have every technological advantage.

Because it is a fly.

Imagine telling your friends that you killed a fly today.

 

"Oh, got him with a newspaper, huh?"

 

"No"

 

"Flyswatter?"

 

"No"

 

"Did you find some new kind of bugspray?"

 

"No. I went to the closet and got out my 12-gauge pump-action shotgun.

He never knew what hit him."

 

"Man, you are either crazy or pathetic. You needed a shotgun to kill a fly?"

 

We have trouble with flies because we deliberately limit the methods we use to combat them, mainly out of ego, and a desire to not destroy things.

We could kill flies easily enough if we used every resource available to us, but we don't want to.

We want to beat them on somewhat 'equal' terms.

We want to beat them with a newspaper, because we know that we are people and they are just insignificant insects, and we shouldn't need more than that to beat them.

One difference is, we do not have enough contol over our own physiology to actually take on a fly on its own terms.

There is an episode of Family Guy (Emission Impossible) where Stewie shrinks himself down to a tiny size and is flying around in a little scout ship.

One of the first things he does is hunt down and destroy a passing fly, just for the fun of it.

There are times when I have been so mad at one of the nasty things that I would have loved to have been able to shrink down to their size, strength, everything, and fight them 'like a man'.

Of course doing that would put me at risk of being injured, but if I were angry enough at one, and I suddenly had to power to do it, I would.

 

Firelord has that kind of power.

 

I don't know if he could actually kill himself, or lower his BODY score to the point where a bullet could kill him, because that might interfere with something that Galactus wanted him to do, but my guess is, he could set his other Characteristics all the way down to normal human levels if he wanted to, at least temporarily.

Much like the Green Lantern episode described in an earlier post, Firelord might have wanted to put his 'weapons' down and 'fight like a man'.

 

In game terms I could imagine a 1000 pt. powerhouse with nearly everything bought as part of a Cosmic Power Pool, deciding to only use 350 points worth to 'build' himself up, because he wanted to take on a 350 pt character in a fair fight.

 

I do not make the claim that this is exactly what happened, or that there is evidence of it in the comic.

 

I am just saying that this could happen, based on the various suppositions outlined above.

 

Which is why I don't fret over it.

 

KA.