Playing with SPD and time

[Toadmaster]

Ok, some of the recent threads on Speed got me thinking about this.

 

A normal with a Speed 2 basically only gets 2 actions in 12 seconds or each action takes 6 seconds. Since most PC's have a speed 3 or 4 even in Heroic games I've never really givin it much thought since their actions are only 3 to 4 seconds long which I don't have a hard time accepting when I actually think about it. One of the threads was about 1-1 action or an action actually being several actions, I can believe the second for some things but not others (charges mess that idea up).

 

So what I was thinking of changing the length of a segment to 1/2 second, which would make a turn 6 seconds instead of 12. That way a normal (speed 2) would have 3 second actions which seems more acceptable (seems less like act, stand around, stand around, act).

 

Obviously movement would have to be adjusted (halved) and there would be a few terms that would need some adjustment (turn = 6 seconds, minute is 10 turns etc), but otherwise I really don't see any serious issues this would cause, characters would get recoveries every 6 seconds (phase 12) instead of 12 seconds but would also be spending END faster so it should keep the same balance.

 

I know this probably seems like a silly idea but I thought it might fit with my prefered genres better and would be a pre-emptive strike for those "you can only shoot a gun twice in 12 seconds"? questions.

 

Have I missed any issues such a change would cause?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

You might need to look at the time progression chart and the fade rate rules for adjustment powers

[radioKAOS]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

What happens if you have a PC or NPC with a SPD higher than 6?

 

You would have said character taking actions in fractions of time. As it is now a SPD 6 character is acting once every 2 seconds. In your 'half second' ruling this character would be acting once per second!!! Now that is fast.

 

So what then of say, SPD 8? 8 actions in 6 seconds?

 

I use HERO mostly for Superheroic games, so this rule would be a definate 'no' for me.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

I'm with the Walters (not Sean) fan again - even in my Fantasy Campaign I have to deal too often with the vagaries of Haste and mounts and what have you - I can see the rule working, but SPD & time are such ingrained elements in the system that I think changing them would cause too much KAOS.

 

You might instead consider simply calling a turn shorter than a minute as a Special Effect, but we're back into the chaos of adjustment powers, aids, drains, etc. While I don't agree that a Round = 1 Minute AD&D style, there's no over whelming reason for me to change it other than dramatic effect.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

What happens if you have a PC or NPC with a SPD higher than 6?

 

You would have said character taking actions in fractions of time. As it is now a SPD 6 character is acting once every 2 seconds. In your 'half second' ruling this character would be acting once per second!!! Now that is fast.

 

So what then of say, SPD 8? 8 actions in 6 seconds?

 

I use HERO mostly for Superheroic games, so this rule would be a definate 'no' for me.

 

Well considering I have played alot of carwars with 1/10 second phases, a 1/2 second segment wouldn't bother me in the least. Also I'm dealing with heroic games where a Spd 2 or 3 is common and 4 is fast, a Spd 6 would be almost super human.

 

The current speed has never really been a problem since everything is relative, but if you spend to much time thinking about it does start to look like slow motion. Just thought it might be an easy adjustment. Going off HERO's speed chart most people would be much closer to a speed 4-6, not 2.

 

 

As far as the cost of powers, yes they would effectively double in price to maintain the same duration but their effectiveness would be about the same since it effects the same number of segments.

 

Of course it might just be easier to double character speeds which would have the same basic effect without all the adjustments.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

I think the change would work better (be less intrusive and less likely to have unforseen side effects) if you would consider just changing the SPD formula to SPD=3+DEX/10, and halving Run and Swim MOVE (and their NCM).

 

Average people now go 4 times in 12 seconds--poof!

 

As this is a "fundamental" formula, there's no need to charge for it, or anything. I've wanted to do this in a HERO campaign both to make "normal" activity seem "normal", and to allow slower characters to have a real noticeable difference.

 

It always seemed weird to me that even the very slowest of monsters (golems, etc) were, at most, just a little bit slower than average people.

 

You will, perhaps, have to watch END usage a bit, but as the characters get more Recoveries as well as more opportunity to spend END, I think it would work out OK.

 

You might even be able to go nuts and figure SPD as 5+DEX/10 (with Running MOVE of 2). Whoooh! An action every two seconds! Are we playing GURPS or something?

[OddHat]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

 

I know this probably seems like a silly idea but I thought it might fit with my prefered genres better and would be a pre-emptive strike for those "you can only shoot a gun twice in 12 seconds"? questions.

 

Rapid Fire allows you to pump out as many shots per phase a the gun can handle, at reduced accuracy. Take a few levels with Rapid Fire, maybe the Rapid Attack skill, and your Normal will be blasting out 6 shots per 12 seconds or more. Add Two Weapon Fighting, and he'll be blasting out 1 bullet per second. Now let him have a SPD 3.

 

All that without Autofire.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

Rapid Fire allows you to pump out as many shots per phase a the gun can handle, at reduced accuracy. Take a few levels with Rapid Fire, maybe the Rapid Attack skill, and your Normal will be blasting out 6 shots per 12 seconds or more. Add Two Weapon Fighting, and he'll be blasting out 1 bullet per second. Now let him have a SPD 3.

 

All that without Autofire.

 

Here's the problem when comparing to reality, it is a standard drill in firearms training to fire 3 sets of aimed double taps in 2 seconds (6 shots in 2 seconds, you are expected to keep all the shots in the black). As several of the players I'm hoping to convert to HERO are police officers and gun nuts in real life they may take issue with this.

 

 

Mr. Negative, I like your solution, it is the easiest and still gets the result I want and if I wanted to use a character from my game in another it would simply be a matter of 20 points to adjust. Thanks

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

Here's the problem when comparing to reality, it is a standard drill in firearms training to fire 3 sets of aimed double taps in 2 seconds (6 shots in 2 seconds, you are expected to keep all the shots in the black). As several of the players I'm hoping to convert to HERO are police officers and gun nuts in real life they may take issue with this.

 

 

Mr. Negative, I like your solution, it is the easiest and still gets the result I want and if I wanted to use a character from my game in another it would simply be a matter of 20 points to adjust. Thanks

 

Well, to be honest, if they're expecting realism, they're probably going to be somewhat disappointed. HERO combat is cinematic; it's a cop movie, not a documentary, for lack of a better comparison.

 

Given that someone can deliver a fifty-word speech in mid-combat, combat time is rather abstracted in HERO anyway, one way or the other, even though the speed chart tries to make it concrete. You can't say fifty words in a second unless you're Steve Mochita (sp?).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

Couple of thoughts...

 

If you don't want to alter the rate at which people recover from injury, you might say that Post-12 Recoveries give you back your REC in END and 1/2 your REC in STUN.

 

Another thought is just that there might be other ways to get around the "I can only shoot twice in 12 seconds" issue. For example, what if you look at a character's SPD not simply as the number of actions he can take in 12 seconds, but as the number of effective actions he can take in 12 seconds under chaotic combat conditions. Viewed that way, it might be a little more believable that a normal might have a SPD of 2. It's not that he can't pull the trigger more than twice in 12 seconds... it's that he can't steady himself, get a clear shot, aim carefully, and then fire, all while the situation around him is ever-changing and stressful, in 12 seconds. In SFX terms, it may look like he's firing more rounds than that, but only 2 of them really "count." People with experience or training at being cool under fire should have higher SPDs than 2.

 

You could also introduce a sort of "Non-Combat SPD" concept, where a character's SPD is considered doubled under certain pre-defined conditions (such as, say, sparring in a sport-fighting type environment) as long as they're not legitimately life-threatening. For example, I've known guys who were quite skilled at the techniques of various martial arts styles, and did well in sparring and tournament fighting, but had a lot of trouble translating that "formal" skill into a real-life fight.

[OddHat]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

You can always use Rapid Fire (with permision) to pump out as many shots per phase as the GM allows. You're just at -2 per shot after the first

 

You could give your "Normals" enough levels with pistols and Rapid Fire to fire off those 6 accurate shots in 2 seconds. Just figure on the Brace and Set for +3 OCV (really +1 OCV an +2 vs Range Mod), then 4 levels with Pistols and 4 levels with Rapid Fire. Now they'll have a fair chance of getting those six bullets in the black in a single phase.

 

You can also put limits on the levels such as "Only Out of Combat" (-2), if you don't want that many shots fired anywhere but a well lit firing range.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

If I look at my own ability to fire a handgun out of combat, I look like the next Harbinger of Justice. I've apparently got four or five penalty skill levels for rapid fire, for instance, and several CSLs with handguns.

 

But, that's out of combat. I don't think that I could really wipe out a team of eight or ten attackers with one rapid sweep. Nor do I think that using a rifle would give me nearly guaranteed hits out to a hundred yards. Not when I'm trying to keep from getting shot, moving around, breathing heavily, and dealing with the effects of having a lot of blood in my adrenaline stream.

 

The HERO combat rules are meant to cover COMBAT situations, and applying them to non-combat activities, even if those activities use skills that have combat applications, gives skewed results.

 

Zeropoint

[Toadmaster]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

All of the comments so far have their merit, I disagree with some but understand where you are coming from. Most aspects of a game can be proven faulty depending on how you interpret what the rules mean. I agree to a point HERO is cinematic but not so much as many claim it is, while it may be a cop movie its a good one where people have to reload once in awhile, not Police Academy As far as talking in combat, all the groups I've been in are pretty strict about how much you can say in a phase, no giving the Gettysberg address in 6 seconds or less.

 

The speed thing is just a disconnect for me that is slightly annoying, since all are equally slow it really isn't much of a problem so long as you don't dwell on it, but it has popped up occasionally over the years (like try driving your car at 60 miles an hour on a windy road and only turn every 6 seconds ). I've thought of possible solutions but never really did anything about it (I mean we are all aware it is a game and there are some things you give up for playability), the recent spat of speed questions and the possibility of corrupting a new group of players just put it back in my brain.

 

I think if it comes up as an issue I will give the 3+ (Dex/10) a shot, if it doesn't I'll probably just leave it alone although I do like that idea alot.

[Just Joe]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

I have become more accepting of the abstract nature of the speed chart in my old age*, though there are still things that bug me about it now and then, especially when I try to run a more realistic campaign. If you (or the friends you're trying to convert) are not so accepting of this, then I think you're proposal is fine. It just might be more trouble than it's worth. If you want people to act more often, you might choose to make higher speeds routine. Higher speeds is not without its consequences, but they work in Champions, and can be made to work in heroic level games. The two advantages I see over your proposal are: (1) You don't have to mess around with adjusting the velocities of vehicles, animals, etc, and (2) Higher speeds allow for more subtle variations. The relative jumps from 4 to 5 to 6 are only about half those from 2 to 3 to 4.

 

If you do choose to boost speeds all around, then this could be by changing the base speed to 3+DEX/10 as suggested above, or by simply buying up the speeds of most NPC's and expecting PC's to do the same (with or without a grant of extra points to do it). You might also consider compromising by making base speed 2+DEX/10, (so plain ol' folk have 3 speeds) and expecting PC's to buy speeds of 4-6 (or higher). You could set the NCM for speed to 6 or 8 or even remove it.

 

* Actually, since I mostly played D&D in the early '80's before finding Champions, I was initially very accepting (one action per few seconds sure beat one per minute). It was during much of the '90's that I was least accepting -- though I still have seen nothing that I like better.

[OddHat]

Re: Playing with SPD and time

 

* Actually, since I mostly played D&D in the early '80's before finding Champions, I was initially very accepting (one action per few seconds sure beat one per minute). It was during much of the '90's that I was least accepting -- though I still have seen nothing that I like better.

 

Well, I did like the GURPS system. Everyone had one action per second, but very high skill or Speed could increase that, as could certain advantages. On the other hand, you had people taking unrealistically large numbers of actions in the space of a second.

 

I like the idea of moving up and down the time chart for a more cinematic flavor.