Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

[Chuckg]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And pre crisis darkside would be toasted by silverage superman

 

Actually, no, it was the Silver Age Superman that Pre-Crisis Darkseid used to play pinata with.

 

Note, one of the most impressive scenes in 'Great Darkness Saga' is where a weakened PC-Darkseid, at only a fraction of his power, is still manhandling Pre-Crisis Superboy, Pre-Crisis Supergirl, and Pre-Crisis Mon-El like a Green Beret beating on crippled infants.

[The Watcher]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Interestingly' date=' the United States is supposed to have 1 person with powers per 100,000-1,000,000 people. If we average it out to 1 per 500,000, we get 600 people [b']with powers[/b], or 10% of the world's population of powered people.

IIRC, those figures are from Champions Universe and they didn't count technology-using heroes like gadgeteers and powered armor types. Technology types would add to the number of heroes available to meet threats.

[Chuckg]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

I don't think they count mystics either, only mutants and radiation accidents.

 

Not to mention that if CU is contradicted by later source material, well, later source material wins.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

well, the most logical question is: how powerful/capable would a group of 5-6 heroes have to be to defeat

a)Dr. Destroyer?

b)Takofanes?

c)Gravitar?

d)viperia?

e)Menton?

 

(note: there's gotta be, what, two dozen villains in the CU built on 800+ points now, right?)

 

If a group of 350 pointers could have a shot at beating Mechanon, and a group of 450 pointers could fight Eurostar on near-even terms, it stands to reason that a group of 600 pointers could tackle any threat short of Dr. D or Tak. I think to take on those two you'd need a group of at least 700 point PCs, built fairly efficiently.

 

A 1500 to 2000 point hero would probably be an even matchup for Destroyer, assuming they were built for efficiency and not for breadth/depth.

 

Here's a provocative question: are the Galactic Champions of 3000 capable of giving the Destroyer of 2005 a hard time? If not, then the CU is probably a little busted...

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

well, the most logical question is: how powerful/capable would a group of 5-6 heroes have to be to defeat

a)Dr. Destroyer?

b)Takofanes?

c)Gravitar?

d)viperia?

e)Menton?

 

(note: there's gotta be, what, two dozen villains in the CU built on 800+ points now, right?)

 

If a group of 350 pointers could have a shot at beating Mechanon, and a group of 450 pointers could fight Eurostar on near-even terms, it stands to reason that a group of 600 pointers could tackle any threat short of Dr. D or Tak. I think to take on those two you'd need a group of at least 700 point PCs, built fairly efficiently.

 

A 1500 to 2000 point hero would probably be an even matchup for Destroyer, assuming they were built for efficiency and not for breadth/depth.

 

Here's a provocative question: are the Galactic Champions of 3000 capable of giving the Destroyer of 2005 a hard time? If not, then the CU is probably a little busted...

 

 

Well, if there was even a single team of 600 or 700 pters around, at least operating in Europe, then Eurostar would not be considered the threat they are.

 

1) Viperia and Gravitar are relatively straightforward types. They can be dealt with by a creative and diverse team.

 

2) Menton is extremely tricky. He's not going to fight any hero group straight up, and he'll work behind the scenes mind controlling puppets to do his bidding. He can be a problem for even 700+ pt hero teams due to the subtle nature of his powers.

 

3) Dr D and Takofanes is simply impossible for 700 pt non-cheesed out characters built the way most CU writeups are built (I realize that PC types are generally more efficient than that). Especially if you give the two of them the support structure and minions that they're supposed to have.

 

I think to maintain internal consistency, the reason that the MVs haven't taken over or been more destructive than they have been, is that they actively work to sabotage each others' plots. And this has been consistently supported by the source material.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Well then, the obvious solution is just take them all out at once. Shouldn't be that hard, really.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And pre crisis darkside would be toasted by silverage superman

 

No, silver age Superman is who he beat up.

 

And i bet all those people who beat up Thor eventually get taken down by him in the end HTH, not talking Surtur or Ymir here.

 

Let's see.. Thor's record on the Hulk is at best even with him having been knocked out a few times by the guy, a rival Celtic God just literally killed him in Blood Oath (who given that Hogun the Grim drove him off by dropping a car on him, not Surtur or Ymir), Loki once took on Beta Ray Bill and Masterson Thor at once and took them both out with them not coming back later to win, Gladiator knocked out Thor in two to three punches, Thor later winning the rematch in a fight that occured later by using repeated energy blasts, after a fight Gladiator went through where he got hit so hard by someone else that his blood was dripping off their weapon in gobbets... Which of course doesn't change that Thor /lost/ the first fight, and won the second, which came soon after a different fight Gladiator got into, by mostly flaring away with energy blasts to keep him stunned and off balance and hurting for hammer blows.

 

That's just off the top of my head, as far as Bill and Thor.

 

Im just making the point that Marvel/DC major characters are Top Tier not massively overmatched.

 

And you'd be wrong.

 

Thanos for example is nowhere near Galactus in power, and he's beaten the Silver Surfer to death, one shot shattered barriers Thor, the Hulk, Hercules, Havok, Storm, Jean Grey, Collossus, the Thing, and several others smashing on at once couldn't budge, knocked out Drax "I rip apart suns" the Destroyer, smacked around Thor with eyebeams before multiple power ups, gestured and sent a charged up Mjolnir to the ground, dispelling the charge, and what have been retconned as clones of his have required things like Thor being powered up by Odin's own gear to take on, the Hulk having to be amped by Nate freakin Grey just to fight when not even fully in this dimension, to drive back from it. The Surfer, who can shatter planets, has point blank fragged him to no effect. He's taken on the Hulk, Thing, Thor and Hercules in hand to hand, at once, and they've failed to do anything to him to put him down, they themselves during the fight needing things like saves from Quasar to stop from being hurled and smashed around.

 

Moreover, the JLA have their usual record of needing to take on Despero en masse, and even then, not doing so hot.

 

There are plenty of not Galactus villains who outclass the heroes not by a small amount.

 

Or there's the Overmind. The Overmind can't mentally control Eternals due to genetic quirk. The Overmind has had his mental domination bounce off the defenses of the Quantum bands. The Overmind routinely loses to the Stranger. These are not the hallmarks of a true cosmic god. And yet the Overmind took the best efforts of the Fantastic Four+Doctor Doom+technology worked on by both Reed and Doom and stomped them all down. The Hulk and Hyperion have at once thrown their strongest punches in the Overmind's face to no effect. The Overmind's response being to one shot them down, the Hulk at that point right out of the fight, and Hyperion commenting that he feels nearly dead.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

It seems your standard operating procedure is to try and act like a victim when contradicted. Very sad.

 

As opposed to you hurling around personal insults? You really think yourself immaculate in conduct?

 

I think at this point I have to agree with the guy who summed up your posting as "whine whine, gripe gripe, rant rant". Clearly assuming you're capable of discussion is apparently just a mistake.

 

All the armies, allies, etc aren't going to do much if your losses stay dead while theirs come back. Or if Takofanes decides to simply mind control an army for himself. Or unleashes an army of ghosts who armies (and most supers) simply can't deal with.

 

Because it will clearly be impossible that said groups will prep anything to resist it with?

 

Because I /didn't/ say that all they have to do is last long enough for one particular team or group to do the big unorthodox thing typical of comics in order to win?

 

Note some of the other big described fights. That's how the CU won. Against V'han, they bought time while others rushed to find reassemble an ancient Lemurian weapon. Against Tyrannon, the magical girl from the Champions unleashed power well beyond her capacity, sacrificing her life and ending the current age of magic.

 

You really don't think Takofanes would be defeated by something like that? You don't think concern for something like that going down is why Master Villains pick and choose their fights, if they're smart?

 

Your requirement is that they do nothing but meet their enemy in some brawl and die. They can't plan or do much beforehand, apparently.

 

There would decidedly be no equivalent to someone being convinced to amp people up ala Highfather to let them last longer.

 

The defensive efforts that secret superhuman cities and magical civlizations could provide would fold up in seconds.

 

If they gave superpowers to everybody on Planet Earth, then it's way beyond what the CU is capable of.

 

And it was way beyond what the DCU was capable of in that they needed someone from another functional universe to make it go. It otherwise required...what amounted to advanced technology well below the scale of Galactus or even Doctor Doom's personal tech closet.

 

If Animal Man and the others who came up with the idea was in the CU, are you telling me they couldn't find some kind of wacky cosmic and prevail upon them for help to make such an effort go? The collected energy of the Star*Guards? The fellow deities of Ma'at?

[Chuckg]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

*reps Pendaran*

[megaplayboy]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Let's see, Dr. D has defenses which completely bounce 12 DC attacks, against which 14 DC attacks barely register, and 16 DC attacks do less than 10 stun on average. His base DCV is 10, with 8 total levels--assuming he splits them, he's a 14 CV.

To be effective against him, a team of 5-6 PCs would need an average CV of 12, and average 18 DCs in damage. Assuming an average SPD of 6, and Dr. D needing 2-3 phases to dispose of any given hero, it'd take about a turn for the heroes to bring him down. If they roll badly, he'll take them out(as in, kill most of them) in two turns.

But they would pose a significant threat to his plans.

 

If you start with a 250 point, 10 DC, 8 CV base, and go up 2 DC and 2 CV every 100 points, then a team of 600 pointers is the minimum necessary to face him down.

Even if you opt for sheer numbers over sheer firepower, you'd need about 8 characters throwing 16 DC, 10-12 throwing 14 DC, and maybe 20 throwing 12 DC. Dr. Destroyer could kill his way through an infinite number of heroes throwing 8-10 DC. For a smaller team of 4, they'd need to be CV 14, throwing an average 20 DC, to even pose a threat. A solo would need to be buff enough to stun Grond with a pushed attack(about 26 DC) in order to be taken seriously.

 

What, does every team which advances to this power level just get mysteriously killed off?

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

As opposed to you hurling around personal insults?

 

I think at this point I have to agree with the guy who summed up your posting as "whine whine, gripe gripe, rant rant". Clearly assuming you're capable of discussion is apparently just a mistake.

 

At some point, I have to assume you'll get tired of trying to act like a victim. It's tiresome that every other post by you is an accusation or rant of some sort.

 

 

 

Because it will clearly be impossible that said groups will prep anything to resist it with?

 

Because I /didn't/ say that all they have to do is last long enough for one particular team or group to do the big unorthodox thing typical of comics in order to win?

 

Note some of the other big described fights. That's how the CU won. Against V'han, they bought time while others rushed to find reassemble an ancient Lemurian weapon. Against Tyrannon, the magical girl from the Champions unleashed power well beyond her capacity, sacrificing her life and ending the current age of magic.

 

You really don't think Takofanes would be defeated by something like that? You don't think concern for something like that going down is why Master Villains pick and choose their fights, if they're smart?

 

Your requirement is that they do nothing but meet their enemy in some brawl and die. They can't plan or do much beforehand, apparently.

 

There would decidedly be no equivalent to someone being convinced to amp people up ala Highfather to let them last longer.

 

The defensive efforts that secret superhuman cities and magical civlizations could provide would fold up in seconds.

 

By your reasoning, points and power levels don’t matter. The fact that only a handful of heroes in the entire world can even match Takofane’s minions doesn’t matter. The fact that Destroyer has thousands of minions tougher than the average hero doesn’t matter. The fact that they have the capability to end most fights in one phase doesn’t matter.

 

Why even have heroes at all? If one shot plot devices are all that mattered, you can throw Destroyer, Menton, and Takofanes against Indiana Jones and according to you, Jones would kick their butt every single time. Heck while we’re at it, Sipowitz from NYPD Blue would crush them according to your reasoning because he would always find the magical plot device no matter how illogical or inconsistent that may be. Every single time like clockwork. He can even beat them if they all combine forces against him. For some reason, the three of them will just sit around and twiddle their thumbs while this is happening.

 

Unlike you, I believe scale matters.

 

 

And it was way beyond what the DCU was capable of in that they needed someone from another functional universe to make it go. It otherwise required...what amounted to advanced technology well below the scale of Galactus or even Doctor Doom's personal tech closet.

 

If Animal Man and the others who came up with the idea was in the CU, are you telling me they couldn't find some kind of wacky cosmic and prevail upon them for help to make such an effort go? The collected energy of the Star*Guards? The fellow deities of Ma'at?

 

It sounds to me like you would be much happier playing Amber RPG where you can basically make stuff up as you go along.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

this thread is done. thanks for playing, however poorly you may or may not have done so.