Entanglements

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Entanglements

 

I've used TK for a gravity trap before, and it worked ok. Only thing I didn't like was that it becomes an all-or-nothing deal; either you make your STR-vs-STR roll and are free, or you fail your roll and are held.

 

I've also tried it as a regular Entangle with an "Only takes damage from brute strength & movement powers" advantage. (Can't remember how much we decided that was worth.) That gave more of the "You struggle a few inches closer to the edge of the field..." feeling I wanted. :shrug: Depends on how you see the sfx, I suppose.

 

I'm of two minds about Eyebeam Guy. I absolutely agree that sometimes sfx has to trump rules, or else what's the point of having sfx. So I can see saying "Sorry, you can't use your eyebeams in this situation."

 

OTOH... Let's say Generic Energy Projector Gal is stuck to the wall next to Eyebeam Guy. If she gets to use her EB, but he doesn't get to use his, are we penalizing Eyebeam Guy's player for choosing a colorful-and-somewhat-limiting (if not exactly original) sfx? Assuming he didn't take some kind of "restricted arc" limitation on the power, of course.

 

I think if I were GMing this, I'd have to ask myself if I felt confident that I could do similar things to the other PCs from time to time. Or if there were likely to be a roughly equal number of times when Eyebeam Guy's sfx would be an advantage. If not, I might make him blow a phase on "You can't quite turn your head far enough to cut yourself free..." but then let me cut himself out.

 

I do agree about seperating barriers out - that always seemed like two-powers-for-the-price-of-one. But then, it's fairly easy to take the "no barriers" lim when appropriate.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.â€

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Entanglements

 

Welll...

 

Eyebeams could either be bounced off something, or the user could just look down (so you can hit the the glue). Or it could be a limitation on the Eyebeams, since stuff like a blast from the hands wouldn't have near as many similiar problems.

 

Martial Artists ought to be able to use their skill to wriggle free better and suchlike - and if you're good enough, breaking handcuffs is a very stylish but plausible trick. (Martial Arts is knowing how to better use your strength. It should be able to help you break out of most entangles).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

Welll...

 

Eyebeams could either be bounced off something, or the user could just look down (so you can hit the the glue). Or it could be a limitation on the Eyebeams, since stuff like a blast from the hands wouldn't have near as many similiar problems.

WhammeWhamme brought a good point here... if Eyebeams is determined to be enoug of a limitation on where the Powers source from it's worth a Limitation of some nature... call it "The Eyebeams Limitation" or such and at a -1/4 there's several moderately common applications that occur where defining your EB (or other Powers) as coming from your eyes is disadvantaged over someone who just shoots them from their fists.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

Powers are supposed to originate from somewhere. The rules specifically mention eyebeams in discussion - each point of origin having its own advantages and drawbacks - if you have eyebeams then it's easy to aim but diffucult to escape if your hands are tied behind your back.

 

My problem with this is that you DON'T get any kind of aim bonus, so there is no real advantage but a clear potential disadvantage. I'm not sure how to deal with it in a logical way. We deal with it by ignoring it - we rarely bother defining exactly where a power comes from or bother about the mechanics of how it hits per se. Maybe there is another way (this of course, gives another hidden advantage to strength - it doesn't need a point of origin as it is a whole body thing).

 

One other problem with the 'glued to a wall' scenario is that even if you can hit the glue, unless you have bought personal immunity you are probably going to (realistically) take some damage. I mean You can probably shoot handcuffs off with a handgun but it will probably take some time and effort to get the gun into position and sting A LOT when the bullet hits.

 

Back to the power origination point - it might be interesting to have a little table of suggested bonuses for specific locations of origin...

 

Eyebeams: +1 OCV with power when targetting visually

Handbeams: can use attack as a melee attack rather than ranged

Chestbeam: no OCV penalty to attack grapplers

 

....and so on. Actually I say 'and so on' but I can't think of that many more locations. Footbeams? Buttbeams?

 

OK. Maybe not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

WhammeWhamme brought a good point here... if Eyebeams is determined to be enoug of a limitation on where the Powers source from it's worth a Limitation of some nature... call it "The Eyebeams Limitation" or such and at a -1/4 there's several moderately common applications that occur where defining your EB (or other Powers) as coming from your eyes is disadvantaged over someone who just shoots them from their fists.

 

Mind you it might make it easier to get out of handcuffs if you have eyebeams - fistbeams are going to be awkward to focus on your own wrists

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

Mind you it might make it easier to get out of handcuffs if you have eyebeams - fistbeams are going to be awkward to focus on your own wrists

There .. see now you've found an Entangle that your normal blaster has trouble with - and that entangle is (usually) even more common than the glued to the wall one you mentioned for eyebeam guy. Methinks you've rebalanced it out to a 0 cost nonissue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

...or I've found a reason to define my fistbeams as starting at my elbows....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

...or I've found a reason to define my fistbeams as starting at my elbows....

that too...

[CBikle]

Re: Entanglements

 

The Vision is one of those characters who seems to have multiple points of origin for his EB(s). Eyes, hands,his diamond insignia on chest, that jeweled-deal on his forehead.

 

If it's not already listed elsewhere, Multiple Points Of Origin might make a good 3 pt. adder for EBs, entangles, etc.

 

I suppose there are some situational power constructs that can give that for free ( indirect, variable special effects, etc.).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

The Vision is one of those characters who seems to have multiple points of origin for his EB(s). Eyes, hands,his diamond insignia on chest, that jeweled-deal on his forehead.

 

If it's not already listed elsewhere, Multiple Points Of Origin might make a good 3 pt. adder for EBs, entangles, etc.

 

I suppose there are some situational power constructs that can give that for free ( indirect, variable special effects, etc.).

 

 

I think the system favoured method is indirect, but that tends to make it a bit expensive. I wouldn't mind an adder instead, or even changing it around and saying that attacks can come from anywhere and you get -1/4 for picking a location they come from (as previously suggested).

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Entanglements

 

Well if you had a buttbeam, it wouldn't help you if your chest is glued to a wall. If you had elbowbeams, probably the same situation depending on which side of the elbow the beam comes out.

 

For someone who has handbeams, he might have trouble in grappling situations or up close whereas someone with eyebeams can more than likely at least get his opponent in his field of view to fire. I think you're splitting hairs here. I wouldn't worry about advantages/disadvantages of a SFX too much. If it gets overwhelming, you might make the player buy a Powers skill to compensate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

My concern is not the exact sfx of location related EBs but the effect that enforcing that rule has on entangles: for quite a lot of characters it would make entangles really quite devastating.

 

OTOH I now need to create a character witha buttbeam....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

Entangles are powerful, but most people play in groups which means a team which means you can have multiple people helping you so it's no ness. your SFX that comes into play.

[Rapier]

Re: Entanglements

 

The main problem I have with a TK "Entangle" is that its permanent. You spend x amount of pts on a 30 STR TK Entangle. Louie the Eye Beamer gets caught in your Entangle. Louie has 18 STR and can't see the glue sticking his back to a wall. HE'S STUCK...FOREVER.

 

Ok, maybe not forever, but a long long time.

 

If he pushes his STR to 28 he is almost equal. In a STR vs STR he JUST might break out...if he doesn't run out of END first.

 

What if its a 50 STR TK Entangle and Julie the Mentalist only has 10 STR? She can only push her STR to 20. A STR vs STR of 50 vs 20? She's just might be stuck for quite a while.

 

The current Entangle rules are not necessarily a lot better. Julie is still screwed with an Entangle with 5 DEF, but at least there is a mechanic for chipping away at the Entangle and eventually freeing herself.

 

If the Entangle, as a power, were moved more to the TK direction there would almost need to be some kind of Ablative on the power to allow a character to work themselves free over time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

Agreed - and I wouldn't recommend using TK to replace Entangle. I simply stated that for the SFX Sean was describing a TK would model it much better.

 

Adding Physical Manifestation to TK gives it a BODY and DEF characteristic that can be attacked however.

[Peregrine]

Re: Entanglements

 

Can't a martial artist use a Martial Escape to increase their effective STR for escaping an Entangle?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

Yes.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Entanglements

 

Right, but might not that depend on sfx as well? Handcuffs, sure; glue-gun, probably; gravity trap...I dunno.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I had a plan…A good plan. Smart. Carefully laid out. But I got bored. All that watching, waiting. My legs started to cramp.â€

[ghost-angel]

Re: Entanglements

 

All things are subject to Dramatic and Common Sense as well as GMs discretion.

 

Mechanically however, I believe Mar. Escape may be used against Entangles.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

The main problem I have with a TK "Entangle" is that its permanent. You spend x amount of pts on a 30 STR TK Entangle. Louie the Eye Beamer gets caught in your Entangle. Louie has 18 STR and can't see the glue sticking his back to a wall. HE'S STUCK...FOREVER.

 

Ok, maybe not forever, but a long long time.

 

If he pushes his STR to 28 he is almost equal. In a STR vs STR he JUST might break out...if he doesn't run out of END first.

 

What if its a 50 STR TK Entangle and Julie the Mentalist only has 10 STR? She can only push her STR to 20. A STR vs STR of 50 vs 20? She's just might be stuck for quite a while.

 

The current Entangle rules are not necessarily a lot better. Julie is still screwed with an Entangle with 5 DEF, but at least there is a mechanic for chipping away at the Entangle and eventually freeing herself.

 

If the Entangle, as a power, were moved more to the TK direction there would almost need to be some kind of Ablative on the power to allow a character to work themselves free over time.

 

I agree, and this really goes to the heart of what I'm on about. If you play the 'power emanation point' rules with entangle the problem is as grave. Real-point wise TK and normal entangles work out about he same (in fact normal entangles are cheaper)

 

ghost-angel makes an excellent point though: in a group, whilst you might not be able to escape the entangle/TK there will be SOMEONE who can get you out, alost certainly. Group synergy is often not considered, and I do feel that there is an ingrained havit in Hero (and I'm guilty myself) of assuming that all characters have to be self sufficient and all powers balanced for all characters. Thinking in group terms spreads the balance issues a lot, and, to my mind, is a lot more genre appropriate.

[casualplayer]

Re: Entanglements

 

Considering Gravitar has the gravity well power at 50 STR and can easily use other of her powers at the same time, how come she gets no respect? It's the long-talied mullet I tell you. A couple hours at a good day spa and she is Master Villain material and looking sassy.

 

I second the suggestions that Entangle and Force Wall should have been seperated and retooled into something like Immobilize and Create DEF/BODY. After I kludge my Entangle into a Mental Entangle, can I still create barriers? That seems wrong, and indicative of the problem. I shouldn't have to file down my tools for them to be useful.

 

Immobilize could go the Adder route and affect specific areas (arm, arms, leg, legs, head, any one limb, whole body) and have a definable-at-creation breakout method.

 

Create could have an Adder for the equivalent of Fine Work, called Detailed or Intricate, or you could just make big chunks of ice, webbing, etc. The AE advantages already cover all the rules you would need for how much area could be covered at once.

 

I would recommend that these powers try not to include too much under their scope. Any character with the ability to create, excuse me, Create highly intricate items like firearms or sentient life should have VPPs or MPs to represent their versatility.

 

I'd have to playtest point costs for these, and I don't have a playtest group. Is there anything here worth pursuing?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

Well given that you can sumon vehicles, you could presumably sumon barriers too. Then, of course, you'd have to persuade them to help you:

 

Oh go on, block the door...

 

Don't want to!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Entanglements

 

ghost-angel makes an excellent point though: in a group' date=' whilst you might not be able to escape the entangle/TK there will be SOMEONE who can get you out, alost certainly. Group synergy is often not considered, and I do feel that there is an ingrained havit in Hero (and I'm guilty myself) of assuming that all characters have to be self sufficient and all powers balanced for all characters. Thinking in group terms spreads the balance issues a lot, and, to my mind, is a lot more genre appropriate.[/quote']

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sean Waters again."

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ghost-angel again."

 

Very well put. That's what a team is supposed to be all about - the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“If people see you are unarmed, they'll never hurt you...nine times out of ten.â€

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Entanglements

 

There is no faster, cheaper way to generate a huge pile o' whatever than an area effect entangle.

 

Example: Super Sailor, villainous vigilante of free speech, is making a hasty getaway after being foiled at the entrance to the MacDuck family vaults. Scrooge MacDuck stops the silly thief with his patented "bury him in dimes" attack, an AOE 3d6 entangle. Viola. 19 hexes fill with dimes, leaving poor Super Sailor stuck in the middle.

 

The dimes don't disappear under ordinary circumstances. Perhaps Scrooge has them as recoverable charges, or perhaps he just tanks the local economy every few weeks.

 

Scrooge rolls up his sleeves, mutters about the poor caliber of villains these days, and begins a devastating series of 1 pip penetrating RKAs to poor hapless Super Sailor. The nickels plink off his armor, so scrooge starts making targeted shots, nickel and diming Super Sailor to death. (sorry)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entanglements

 

There is no faster, cheaper way to generate a huge pile o' whatever than an area effect entangle.

 

Example: Super Sailor, villainous vigilante of free speech, is making a hasty getaway after being foiled at the entrance to the MacDuck family vaults. Scrooge MacDuck stops the silly thief with his patented "bury him in dimes" attack, an AOE 3d6 entangle. Viola. 19 hexes fill with dimes, leaving poor Super Sailor stuck in the middle.

 

The dimes don't disappear under ordinary circumstances. Perhaps Scrooge has them as recoverable charges, or perhaps he just tanks the local economy every few weeks.

 

Scrooge rolls up his sleeves, mutters about the poor caliber of villains these days, and begins a devastating series of 1 pip penetrating RKAs to poor hapless Super Sailor. The nickels plink off his armor, so scrooge starts making targeted shots, nickel and diming Super Sailor to death. (sorry)

 

You certainly ought to be sorry

 

This is an interesting idea, and not one I've seen expounded before: technically it should be a dome, I suppose, so an AWFUL lot of stuff to fight through....of course Super Sailor would be getting the advantages that he has all those hexes of protection and can't be seen from outside, but even so....it would slow a body down, wouldn't it....?

 

Thinking about it I'm not sure this is legal: much as you can not increase the size of a force wall by buying AoE I doubt you can do it with the barrier function of entangle (one more reason, perhaps, why they should be seperate powers) but interesting idea....