Spell Construction - seeking advice

[Thia Halmades]

Good morning.

 

During my racial package design, I saved the toughest for last. That's Gnomes. Yes, Gnomes. Why Gnomes? I'll tell you why Gnomes. Because Gnomes have three Spell Like Abilities that they can use once per day. They operate like spells in all respects (although I'll remove the focus requirement and just put Charge on which I didn't do last night, tired from watching the Superbowl) and should be straightforward. They haven't been, and I'm not sure if it's because I missed something, or if there's something lacking in the system.

 

Depending on the version selected, you create up to four lights that resemble lanterns or torches (and cast that amount of light), or up to four glowing spheres of light (which look like will-o’-wisps), or one faintly glowing, vaguely humanoid shape. The dancing lights must stay within a 10-foot-radius area in relation to each other but otherwise move as you desire (no concentration required): forward or back, up or down, straight or turning corners, or the like. The lights can move up to 100 feet per round. A light winks out if the distance between you and it exceeds the spell’s range.

Dancing Lights - The effect of the spell is to create a 10' radius of 4 globes of light which have torch-level illumination. I built it as such:

 

Sight Group Images, +4 PER Rolls (22 Active Points), Only to Create Light (-1), Set Image at time of Creation (-3/4), Charges (One Charge Lasting One Round (aka 1 minute) (-1.5)

 

The part of this I can't figure out: Am I doing the ability to select one of three images correctly? Second, how do you move it? In d20, you say it moves and it does. What's the mechanic in HERO for 'moving' a spell effect?

 

Second spell: Ghost Sound

 

Ghost sound allows you to create a volume of sound that rises, recedes, approaches, or remains at a fixed place. You choose what type of sound ghost sound creates when casting it and cannot thereafter change the sound’s basic character.

The volume of sound created depends on your level. You can produce as much noise as four normal humans per caster level (maximum twenty humans). Thus, talking, singing, shouting, walking, marching, or running sounds can be created. The noise a ghost sound spell produces can be virtually any type of sound within the volume limit. A horde of rats running and squeaking is about the same volume as eight humans running and shouting. A roaring lion is equal to the noise from sixteen humans, while a roaring dire tiger is equal to the noise from twenty humans.

Ghost sound can enhance the effectiveness of a silent image spell.

Ghost sound can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Material Component: A bit of wool or a small lump of wax.

I got as far as "Images, Non-Targeting Sense" and then I just got lost. I have no clue how to build this. And, the object of the game is to keep it at 15 points or less, if possible. It may not be possible, but the problem is I can't figure it out. It should, reasonably as I understand the system, be purchased at "max volume" and then altered later should the PC decide to buy up bigger & better illusion spells. It says that a "Roaring dire tiger is equal to the noise from twenty humans" ... great, that helped. NOT. Freakin' d20. This is supposed to be a cantrip, so even if you could create the sound of a roaring dire tiger, would you allow a PRE attack? What if the illusion was convincing? And of course, how do you build this one?

And lastly, what my party calls "Zero level wish" - Prestidigitation.

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

I was considering doing this as a 2d6 Cosmetic Transform (10) PLUS 5 STR TK (5? Less, if necessary, since '0 STR' does something in this system). Non-Combat Only (-1/2). Or should I do it as a 5 pt. Cosmetic, PLUS a 5 STR TK PLUS a ... I don't know, whatever the World's Weakest Summon is and stick it all on one spell?

Is this also the best way to build "multi-power" spells, or should I simply build the spell as a Multipower? 15 points, with a 3d6 Cosmetic Transform, a 15 pt. TK and a 15 pt. Summon?

Thoughts?

 

All help is appreciated!

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

I would reccomend taking a look at Killer Shrikes excellent High Fantasy Hero site for ideas on doing spell conversions

 

with a little paging you can find his version of dancing lights

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp

 

he does dancing lights the same way you suggest

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

LOL - one down, two to go. Actually, his version offers no +PER modifier - so how bright is it?

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

AD&D allowed you to vary the light to an extent, I just dont remember how much, it doesnt specify limits as far as images go in hero terms

 

3rd edition PHB says you can create up to 4 lights equal to torch or lantern strength light

and I think that data has been consistent in all 3 editions of AD&D

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Well, he has Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation already done, and I agree with his builds.

 

5ER 353: Perception Roll Modifiers.

A whistle is +3, a grenade is +6, siren +4, whisper -3.

 

So, when Ghost Sound allows +/-3 I think that covers a pretty good range. Then remember that PER modifiers suffer range modifiers as normal. So, a whistle from 5" away is only +1 to be heard.

 

Are you posting your racial builds anywhere?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Mudpyr8 - No, hadn't considered it actually. Why, are you interested in seeing them?

[hancock.tom]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

I'd be interested in seeing them, esp. if they are builds of the D&D3.5 basic classes. Its always interesting to see how different people build the same old thing, at least to me.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Re: Presto!

Presto is one of those spells in D&D. Those spells being far too powerful for its level. It pretty much calls for a multipower though officialy you cannot place frameworks within frameworks. I might concider allowing it in this case as it is not too overpowering.

But yes, a 1-2d6 cosmetic transform + a 5 pt summon w/ limitations + a bonus to Concealment and Sleight of Hand (my own thoughts; it also would allow you to vanish and produce small objects) + ~ Str 1 TK.

[Basil]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Regarding the TK part of Presti: the STR chart (p.21 5th Ed.) is based on the max amount someone "can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step of two, then drop." Deendee TK assumes (IIRC) a "lift upwards until the spell runs out" scenario.

 

Thus, the STR straight from the STR Chart isn't the number to use; I'd base the Hero TK STR on ~3 lbs.

 

Thus, I'd say Presti has a Hero STR of about -20. So, buy 3 points of TK giving a supposed TK STR of 2, then slap on a -1 to -1.5 Lim, "Only Give A TK STR Of -20".

 

The rest of the spell I'll leave up to you...

...

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

 

...along with explaining why you're duplicating (rather than being inspired by) that piece of junk.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Okay, with all of that in mind, here's my current "Prestidigitation" model:

 

Prestidigitation

1d6 Cosmetic Transform (5 AP), No Combat Effects (-1/2), 1 Charge Lasting One Hour (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (2 Real Points) PLUS, Telekinesis 2 STR (3 AP), No Combat Effects (can neither throw nor deal damage) (-1/2), Effective STR -20 (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), 1 Charge lasting one hour (-1/4), Requires Concentration to Move Object (1/2 DCV) -1 (1 Real Point) PLUS Summon (5 AP), Inanimate Objects Only (-1), No Combat Effects (-1/2), Only For Decorative Purposes (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), One charge lasting one hour (-1/4) (1 Real Point) Total: 13 Active Points, 4 Real Points.

 

This spell is one of the first taught to young casters; it covers a minor range of effects, which are generally for entertainment purposes and studying the effects of magic on things. For the duration of the spell, the caster can alter colors, flavors and smells - he can improve the taste of food, enhance a dull flower, clean up a small bit of dust, and so on. None of the effects of the spell are enough to fool anyone or bring them to any harm. Changing the taste of food with Prestidigitation could not mask the taste of poison. Items summoned are small, fragile and useless as anything other than a moments decoration.

 

Why I built it: Because one of my PCs has this spell, and uses it for... everything. It's a staple of her character concept. In d20, the changes are instant and unresisted; in my campaign I'm using a house rule which states so long as the caster has time, they can get the 'maximum effect' out of spell; for example, a Simple Healing would recover full BODY and STUN so long as the character had Extra Time. The same applies to Presto - so long as you have the time, you can make a cosmetic change to anything, or move a small brick, and so on.

 

Why I'm doing it: Because one of my players has this as a signature spell; she's used to being able to clean her clothes, alter the taste of her food, create minor, meaningless objects, all on a whim. I don't mind it per se, but it has occassionally gotten out of hand. The spell is referred to as a 0 level Wish, because it's so dern handy to have around.

 

Also, the same player has insisted that when the Final Battle between Good and Evil occurs, his character will win the game... with a cantrip.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Here are the other two spells I drafted:

 

Ghost Sound

Sound Group Images, Complex, +2 PER rolls (15 AP)

Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), One Charge lasting one minute (-1), 4 Real Points.

 

Description: For the duration of the spell, the caster can create complex sounds - footsteps coming down a hall, rain on a rooftop, the indecipherable murmur of conversation. They choose the sound at the time of casting and cannot change it; the sound continues for up to the duration of the spell (one minute of talking, or 10 seconds of roaring, it's up to the caster).

 

Dancing Lights

Sight Group Images, -1 PER roll. Mobile, only on the ground (+3/4), AOE Radius (+1/4)

Only to Create Light (-1), Set Images Only (of a group of three) (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), One charge lasting one minute (-1). 3 Real Points.

 

Description: This spell creates one of three simple images; a single globe, four spinning globes, or a man-shaped figure, all created of light. The light is emitted out wards and is roughly the strength of a torch; the caster can move the light at will, but it only hovers above the ground.

 

I adjusted the Mobile lim to reflect that I didn't want flying dancing lights, and to shave off the cost from 15.75 AP to 14 AP, keeping it within the campaign limits of a Cantrip. Curious what y'all think.

 

Thoughts?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

And while I'm at it:

 

Darkness

 

Darkness to Sight Group, 2" Radius, Usable as Attack (+1), 40 Active Points.

Gestures (-1/4), Incants (-1/4), One Charge lasting 1 min. (-1), No Range (-1/2). 13 Real Points.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

I would like to see your races because I'd like to put something together for a Hero Wilderlands of High Fantasy (Swords & Sorcery).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

I was looking for the last time you posted that, couldn't find it. They aren't done yet, and a couple are copyrighted, but you're free to make use of them. Have any advice on how to cut & paste my excel notes over?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

PDF would probably be the easiest way to post stuff from excel as MS html is very messy for board posting. Get CutePDF or PDFCreator to create the PDFs.

I can't understand your first sentence. What were you looking for?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

I believe I converted Prestidigitation as something like a 1d6 Minor Transform with the target widened to anything and the All or Nothing Limitation (flavor as desired for your particular magic system).

[Archon]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Okay, with all of that in mind, here's my current "Prestidigitation" model:

 

Prestidigitation

1d6 Cosmetic Transform (5 AP), No Combat Effects (-1/2), 1 Charge Lasting One Hour (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (2 Real Points) PLUS, Telekinesis 2 STR (3 AP), No Combat Effects (can neither throw nor deal damage) (-1/2), Effective STR -20 (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), 1 Charge lasting one hour (-1/4), Requires Concentration to Move Object (1/2 DCV) -1 (1 Real Point) PLUS Summon (5 AP), Inanimate Objects Only (-1), No Combat Effects (-1/2), Only For Decorative Purposes (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), One charge lasting one hour (-1/4) (1 Real Point) Total: 13 Active Points, 4 Real Points.

 

This spell is one of the first taught to young casters; it covers a minor range of effects, which are generally for entertainment purposes and studying the effects of magic on things. For the duration of the spell, the caster can alter colors, flavors and smells - he can improve the taste of food, enhance a dull flower, clean up a small bit of dust, and so on. None of the effects of the spell are enough to fool anyone or bring them to any harm. Changing the taste of food with Prestidigitation could not mask the taste of poison. Items summoned are small, fragile and useless as anything other than a moments decoration.

 

Why I built it: Because one of my PCs has this spell, and uses it for... everything. It's a staple of her character concept. In d20, the changes are instant and unresisted; in my campaign I'm using a house rule which states so long as the caster has time, they can get the 'maximum effect' out of spell; for example, a Simple Healing would recover full BODY and STUN so long as the character had Extra Time. The same applies to Presto - so long as you have the time, you can make a cosmetic change to anything, or move a small brick, and so on.

 

Why I'm doing it: Because one of my players has this as a signature spell; she's used to being able to clean her clothes, alter the taste of her food, create minor, meaningless objects, all on a whim. I don't mind it per se, but it has occassionally gotten out of hand. The spell is referred to as a 0 level Wish, because it's so dern handy to have around.

 

Also, the same player has insisted that when the Final Battle between Good and Evil occurs, his character will win the game... with a cantrip.

 

 

You need to add an advantage to the summon and transform, +1 any minor change/+1 summon any minor item.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Wow. Third time I've had to write this post in the last five minutes. Now I'm late AND cranky.

 

Archon: You note that both sections of the spell should take the advantage, "any minor item" or "any minor change." However, the campaign has a 15 Active Point per level cap on spells, and I'm recreating Cantrip as a 0 level spell, which shockingly keeps it more balanced than its d20 counterpart. Giving both spells a +1 would put the active cost to 25, no can do.

 

However, I'm curious as to why you suggested it - in fact, I don't want any minor item summoned; I only want small, decorative useless items summoned.

 

Presto: What is All or Nothing? My understanding is that you get one roll and if the spell doesn't work, there's no change. This would be too nerffity IMO - can you explain your reasoning?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Presto: What is All or Nothing? My understanding is that you get one roll and if the spell doesn't work' date=' there's no change. This would be too nerffity IMO - can you explain your reasoning?[/quote']

Without it, there's nothing to keep you from doing humongous things with a little 1d6 Transform; it just takes more time (i.e. more rolls), as Transform is cumulative by default.

 

You might even get away with making it a Cosmetic (rather than Minor) Transform if the changes/creations are really not going to have much system effect. Up to you.

[Archon]

Re: Spell Construction - seeking advice

 

Wow. Third time I've had to write this post in the last five minutes. Now I'm late AND cranky.

 

Archon: You note that both sections of the spell should take the advantage, "any minor item" or "any minor change." However, the campaign has a 15 Active Point per level cap on spells, and I'm recreating Cantrip as a 0 level spell, which shockingly keeps it more balanced than its d20 counterpart. Giving both spells a +1 would put the active cost to 25, no can do.

 

However, I'm curious as to why you suggested it - in fact, I don't want any minor item summoned; I only want small, decorative useless items summoned.

 

The reason I suggested the advantage is by strict rules without the advantage a summon may summon 1 thing. For example, summon blue china cup. To get a blue china plate, you would need 2nd summon. But with a +1/4 advantage, group of related items, you could summon a blue china cup, then a blue china plate, etc. However, if you're working with a 15 pt cap, I've changed my mind. Don't worry about it. After all, it's in the VPP and you'll keep control of what the player does with the spell, and the spell is fairly minor.

 

Although, when I played in d20 one of the first things my group would get was a magic item that cast Prestidigitation. We found so many uses for that spell. We even found a few useful combat applications.