Thoughts on Images

[Armitage]

Specifically, Radio Images. Yes, I'm on my Tracking Bug fixation again.

The description of the Tracking Bug in Dark Champions is a +4 PER 32" Radius Image. The description recommends that the signal can be perceived at +2 from 33"-64", +0 from 65"-125", -2 from 126"-250", and with an Extraordinary Skill Roll beyond that.

But if you created a Sight Image of a building filling a 32" radius, you wouldn't just "not notice" it if you moved 1" past its outer walls. That's a Murphy's Rules cartoon in the making.

Why can't detecting an Image be treated as detecting a normal object of the appropriate size? A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes. Expanding the PER Modifier chart, there's a +22 PER bonus to see a 541 hex object. That equates to a +0 PER Roll at a range of 16 kilometers.

Sounds like an accurate recreation of a tracking device to me.

Add some Telescopic to the sensors and you could have things like a starship in orbit detecting a character's transponder implant on the surface.

Though I have no problem with having to actually be within the Image radius to pinpoint the signal source, if it's bigger than 1 hex. The larger size would just allow you to get a direction.

"He's about 2 kilometers that way. We'll need to get closer before I can get an exact fix on his location."

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

Specifically, Radio Images. Yes, I'm on my Tracking Bug fixation again.

The description of the Tracking Bug in Dark Champions is a +4 PER 32" Radius Image. The description recommends that the signal can be perceived at +2 from 33"-64", +0 from 65"-125", -2 from 126"-250", and with an Extraordinary Skill Roll beyond that.

But if you created a Sight Image of a building filling a 32" radius, you wouldn't just "not notice" it if you moved 1" past its outer walls. That's a Murphy's Rules cartoon in the making.

Why can't detecting an Image be treated as detecting a normal object of the appropriate size? A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes. Expanding the PER Modifier chart, there's a +22 PER bonus to see a 541 hex object. That equates to a +0 PER Roll at a range of 16 kilometers.

Sounds like an accurate recreation of a tracking device to me.

Add some Telescopic to the sensors and you could have things like a starship in orbit detecting a character's transponder implant on the surface.

Though I have no problem with having to actually be within the Image radius to pinpoint the signal source, if it's bigger than 1 hex. The larger size would just allow you to get a direction.

"He's about 2 kilometers that way. We'll need to get closer before I can get an exact fix on his location."

 

your interpretation and implementation make perfect sense to me. Probably how I'll play it if it ever comes up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

I've always just ignored the idea of using Images for a tracking bug. It never made sense to me any way I looked at it. Instead I use Transform (yes, Transform). It's the only appropriate Power. Fundimentally, you are turning the target of the bug into one that transmits a trackable radio frequency. I typically have it bought like this:

 

Tracking Bug: Cosmetic Transform 4d6 (target into target transmitting trackable radio signal, heals back by removing/destroying the bug), IPE (only conceals effects, +1/4), (25 Active Points), IAF (-1/2), 8 Charges (-1/2). Real Cost: 12 points.

 

For best effect, aim at the target's clothing. The signal can be picked up using a special tracker (Detect Radio Signal, 3 points) or HRRP. It's tracked using the Systems Operation Skill or by having the Tracking adder on the detecting sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

You can build tracking bugs the other way round too: simply by defining a proper sense to detect them:

 

Detect uncommon object (tracking bug) (radio group) 3 points (or if you have no other senses int he radio group, add range, sense, 360 degree perception and possibly discriminatory, for a cost of 20 points

 

The bug itself is then just sfx. You actually have to plant something, of course, but there is no need to build it in game terms. You can add telescopic etc to the sense. The bug can be defined however you like: you can make it limited range or particularly powerful (with bonuses to spot) - of course anyone with the same sense can also detect it.

 

Images does not seem to be the right power to me in any event. If I was going to actually build a bug I'd consider using change environment. I do appreciate that the dame prefers emitters to be built with images (hences the injunction against buying a flashlight with CE) but I don't think that that works well with the build of images, which I have mentally filed as a sense fooling power.

 

Dust Raven's solution is an interesting one and could be good depending on your character build.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

The bug itself is then just sfx. You actually have to plant something' date=' of course, but there is no need to build it in game terms. You can add telescopic etc to the sense. The bug can be defined however you like: you can make it limited range or particularly powerful (with bonuses to spot) - of course anyone with the same sense can also detect it.[/quote']

 

I'm thinking the bug really should be represented by a Power of some kind. After all, people don't just spontaneously start spewing electromagnetic radiation just because you touch them funny.

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

OK, so you buy some number of tiny, inobvious, independantly-functioning radio transmitters which the Detect detects, and slight-of-hand or some such to plant them. Still quite cheap, easy, and much more straightforward than either using Images (I have to admit, I still don't get the use of Images to sense something that's actually there, as opposed to its original intent as a way to create holograms and other visible/sensible ephemera) or Transform.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

...people don't just spontaneously start spewing electromagnetic radiation just because you touch them funny.

NOW you tell me.... sigh.

 

Excuse me I've some aplogies to make.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

I'm thinking the bug really should be represented by a Power of some kind. After all' date=' people don't just spontaneously start spewing electromagnetic radiation just because you touch them funny.[/quote']

 

There would have to be a bug, and it would be subject to allt the normal strictures of a real object, I'm just saying that you can pay the points for detecting it rather than having it send out radio.

 

Hell, if you want a transmitter, buy limited HRRT (only to transmit, only to go 'beep', IAF): why even go near images? Just 'cause DC does it that way....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

NOW you tell me.... sigh.

 

Excuse me I've some aplogies to make.

 

You probably wondered why they were not glowing....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

I HATE SCHOOL!!! EVERY time I try to post to these boards from school somethings eats my post! EVERY TIME!!! Let's try again, and everybody remember the chant? ctrl+a ctrl+c ctrl+v ctrl+a ctrl+c ctrl+v...

 

There would have to be a bug' date=' and it would be subject to allt the normal strictures of a real object, I'm just saying that you can pay the points for detecting it rather than having it send out radio.[/quote']

 

I'm just saying Detect Person I Touched While Telling The GM I Was Planting A Bug is a little cheezy. And what about other people detecting the bug with elecronic countermeasures and something? How much does Detect Person Anyone Has Touched While Telling The GM He Was Planting A Bug, Including NPCs Who Don't Have Players To Tell The GM Anything cost? Is that bad or gouda?

 

Hell, if you want a transmitter, buy limited HRRT (only to transmit, only to go 'beep', IAF): why even go near images? Just 'cause DC does it that way....

Interesting Idea. A cheap radio transmit with UAA, IPE, IAF and whatever...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

I've always just ignored the idea of using Images for a tracking bug. It never made sense to me any way I looked at it. Instead I use Transform (yes, Transform). It's the only appropriate Power. Fundimentally, you are turning the target of the bug into one that transmits a trackable radio frequency. I typically have it bought like this:

 

Tracking Bug: Cosmetic Transform 4d6 (target into target transmitting trackable radio signal, heals back by removing/destroying the bug), IPE (only conceals effects, +1/4), (25 Active Points), IAF (-1/2), 8 Charges (-1/2). Real Cost: 12 points.

 

For best effect, aim at the target's clothing. The signal can be picked up using a special tracker (Detect Radio Signal, 3 points) or HRRP. It's tracked using the Systems Operation Skill or by having the Tracking adder on the detecting sense.

Oh. I use a Floating Teleport Location. What?

 

The original point is a good one. I would probably stack both the modifiers from the size of the Images (since I don't have my book I guess I'll take your word that that is +22, but that sounds a little high; I'd think more like +10, since the AREA is doubled from a one-hex control about 2^10 times, which is the equivalent to being 2^5 times "closer") AND the explicit Per roll bonus bought through the Images (+4 in this case, which will again quadruple the effective radius).

[Armitage]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

I'll take your word that that is +22' date=' but that sounds a little high; I'd think more like +10[/quote']

 

A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes.

 

H5R, p. 353.

Object fills entire hex +2

2 hex object +4

4 hex object +6

8 hex object +8

16 hex object +10

32 hex object +12

...and so forth

 

Continuing the table in place of the "..and so forth" results in +20 for a 512 hex object and +22 for a 1024 hex object, which I assumed was actually a 513-1024 hex object.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes.

 

H5R, p. 353.

Object fills entire hex +2

2 hex object +4

4 hex object +6

8 hex object +8

16 hex object +10

32 hex object +12

...and so forth

 

Continuing the table in place of the "..and so forth" results in +20 for a 512 hex object and +22 for a 1024 hex object, which I assumed was actually a 513-1024 hex object.

Oops. I think I would disagree heavily with the book on that chart then. The ease of perceiving an object should be based upon the solid angle taken up by that object, which is proportional to area and inversely proportional to the square of the radius. Therefore, if object A takes up quadruple the area of object B and is twice as far away, it should be just as easy to spot.

 

Each doubling of distance imposes a -2 to the Per roll. Therefore each QUADRUPLING of area should impose a +2 to the Per roll (and each DOUBLING of area should impose a +1 to the Per roll). This is consistent with the Growth and Shrinking Charts, where each doubling of a linear dimensions (quadrupling of area) gives a +2 to Per.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

Oh. I use a Floating Teleport Location. What?

Actually, that's not a bad way of doing it. (Might also not be a good way, but don't worry about that now). Floating Teleport Locations (whether or not you even have Teleport) with appropriate Limitations (such as Visible to Radio Group -0, Focus and such) and HRRP to pick up the signal, with some PER bonuses to pick it up from way over there.

 

The only problem is that it takes a Turn to plant the bug... not something you'd be doing in combat or as the villain is getting away.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

Actually, that's not a bad way of doing it. (Might also not be a good way, but don't worry about that now). Floating Teleport Locations (whether or not you even have Teleport) with appropriate Limitations (such as Visible to Radio Group -0, Focus and such) and HRRP to pick up the signal, with some PER bonuses to pick it up from way over there.

 

The only problem is that it takes a Turn to plant the bug... not something you'd be doing in combat or as the villain is getting away.

Uh huh. The Turn to plant the bug is why you apply the Delayed Effect Advantage.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

The Detect also needs RSR: Concealment, Side Effect: Target Perceivable by Radio Sense. It's a neat power, but not all that game-breaking. GM's know that bugs get detected, knocked off, and even maliciously misplaced.

[Armitage]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

Apparently, I lost my ability to perform basic math. A 32" Radius would cover 2977 hexes. I don't know where I got 541 hexes.

 

Re: Growth PER modifiers vs. Image size.

If we asume that the Image is created as a hemisphere at ground level, it will fill a volume of 61093 cubic hexes. According to The Ultimate Brick, p. 107, this is 4459789 times the volume of a 1" tall human. This is equal to between 110 and 115 points of Growth, which would be a +14 PER modifier.

Which would be detectable with a base PER roll at just over 1 km, 4.1 km if you figure in the +4 PER that the standard Tracking Bug has.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Thoughts on Images

 

Specifically, Radio Images. Yes, I'm on my Tracking Bug fixation again.

The description of the Tracking Bug in Dark Champions is a +4 PER 32" Radius Image....

But if you created a Sight Image of a building filling a 32" radius, you wouldn't just "not notice" it if you moved 1" past its outer walls. That's a Murphy's Rules cartoon in the making.

Why can't detecting an Image be treated as detecting a normal object of the appropriate size? A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes.

Sounds like an accurate recreation of a tracking device to me.

Add some Telescopic to the sensors and you could have things like a starship in orbit detecting a character's transponder implant on the surface.

Though I have no problem with having to actually be within the Image radius to pinpoint the signal source, if it's bigger than 1 hex. The larger size would just allow you to get a direction.

"He's about 2 kilometers that way. We'll need to get closer before I can get an exact fix on his location."

 

Sounds like a very reasonable build to me. And, unlike the other builds proposed, it naturally interacts properly with radio group senses other than your own. Others with HRR perception may also perceive the signal.

 

A 32" Radius fills 541 hexes.

 

H5R, p. 353.

Object fills entire hex +2

...and so forth

 

Continuing the table in place of the "..and so forth" results in +20 for a 512 hex object and +22 for a 1024 hex object, which I assumed was actually a 513-1024 hex object.

 

Your reading of the table is correct. The writing of the table might not be.