Jedi and evil actions

[Mike W]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

Sounds like I would need to read the rules to get the whole jist of what you are describing. I could ask about twenty more questions and really is not the point.

 

I will accept this as valid. I am just saying that the mere act of causing pain with the force is secondary to the intent behind causing pain. Interrogation or torture would most assuredly be ungood acts.

 

What I think is potentially more dangerous is the use of Mind Trick. The subsumation of one's will is a real touchy subject. Even for good, you are basically replacing one's free will with your own. No matter how limited or innocuous seeming, it still deprives the subject of free will. I would rather make somebody feel like they had a blister on their heel, than override their will. Does that make the use of force powers subjective in a moral light?

 

For Call Upon Dark Side, forget the mechanic. The basic idea is that you are asking the dark side for help.

 

The use of force powers will always be subjective in a moral light, the question is how that morality is defined. Part of our problem is that Lucas never defined it well. Of course, for the movies he didn't really need to. West End tried but failed. I think what you have to do is decide on what basis you will judge the powers and then stick to it, whatever it is. As long as you're consistent, the players will probably adjust if your system makes any sense.

[azato]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

The use of force powers will always be subjective in a moral light' date=' the question is how that morality is defined. Part of our problem is that Lucas never defined it well. [/quote']

 

I think trying to get a coherent moral system out of Lucas' movies is like trying to get a coherent story out of Lucas' movies.

 

Episode 3: Obi want pleads with Ani "DONT I'VE GOT THE HIGHER GROUND" showing his concern and love for the boy that he was sent to kill. Seconds later he cuts Ani down to size (which I'm ok with) but leaves him to burn to death or die from exposure/shock:bmk:. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

 

Mike is right, figure out a system that works for you. To work out a canon out of the movies will produce a schitzoid sytem.

 

After almost 20 years and TONS of money you would think that Lucas would have had time to write a cohernt story with decent dialoge, develop a solid background and hire good actors. As far as I am concerned the only two expisodes that exist are 4 and 5 - the rest are bad dreams. Forgive me for venting, the Star Wars movie franchise really burns me. I have been angry since episode 6 (but I did love all the action in episode 2 - but hated everything else).

[Nolgroth]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

The use of force powers will always be subjective in a moral light' date=' the question is how that morality is defined. Part of our problem is that Lucas never defined it well. Of course, for the movies he didn't really need to. West End tried but failed. I think what you have to do is decide on what basis you will judge the powers and then stick to it, whatever it is. As long as you're consistent, the players will probably adjust if your system makes any sense.[/quote']I am in absolute agreement with you on this. I just wanted to carry the argument to its rational conclusion and I think we have done so. You and azato are correct; Lucas did not provide enough of a moral benchmark from which we can judge the use of any Force power in a moral light. Further, he clouds the issue by having some of the characters act in a very inconsistent manner (azato pointed out the Obi-Wan example). I think the whole point was espoused early on in the discussion, when several people suggested that the journey to the Dark Side is a personal experience which should be played out between the GM and player.

 

Nice debate.

[austenandrews]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

nolgroth, how can we carry on a cheesy fanboy argument when you're being so darn reasonable all the time?

 

It's interesting that many consider the Jedi mind trick to be morally objectionable. Remember in the first movie, the Force was almost entirely a matter of mystical perception. Telekinesis wasn't introduced until ESB. The only "offensive" use of the Force was the mind control that Obi-Wan used twice against the stormtroopers and (as it appeared in the isolated context of ANH) that Vader used to choke the Imperial officer. So really, Obi-Wan's trick was by far the more serene and humane use of the Force in that situation.

 

ESB introduced TK into the mix, making Vader's Force choke a physical rather than mental/neurological effect. That pretty much pulled the rug out from under the "mind trick," turning it into something of much more limited utility. In Hero terms, from ESB forward it never achieved more than EGO+10 effect. Which as I see it, basically counts as a shortcut to giving a persuasive argument. A psychic PRE attack, if you will. Personally I never saw it as some immoral "subversion of free will" any more than a Persuasion roll would be. It's trivial and even respectful compared to "negotiations with a lightsaber."

 

(The drug dealer scene was a throwaway gag, of course. It can be easily written off that the poor schlub knew he was doing wrong and needed an extra push to overcome his own idiocy. Who really thinks a Jedi will buy death sticks, anyway? He probably got halfway down the block and wondered why the heck he was going through with it.)

[austenandrews]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

Except in those cases' date=' the pain caused is a side effect, not the primary purpose of the power use.[/quote']

You can perhaps more convincingly argue that causing pain is only a side effect of manipulating internal organs. Good guys do it to help people, bad guys do it just to cause pain, but the technique itself is neutral.

[Mike W]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

You can perhaps more convincingly argue that causing pain is only a side effect of manipulating internal organs. Good guys do it to help people' date=' bad guys do it just to cause pain, but the technique itself is neutral.[/quote']

 

That IS what I argued. The original statement seemed to be that the Jedi was manipulating organs to heal the person. In that case, the pain is a side effect, the same with any other surgery. But causing pain is not the primary purpose of the power use.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

nolgroth' date=' how can we carry on a cheesy fanboy argument when you're being so darn reasonable all the time? [/quote']Well, that's me, Mr. Reasonable.

 

It's interesting that many consider the Jedi mind trick to be morally objectionable.

I'm not sure that "many" find it objectionable, but I do.

 

(The drug dealer scene was a throwaway gag, of course. It can be easily written off that the poor schlub knew he was doing wrong and needed an extra push to overcome his own idiocy. Who really thinks a Jedi will buy death sticks, anyway? He probably got halfway down the block and wondered why the heck he was going through with it.)

Gag or not, if we look at in light of the morality discussion, Obi-Wan's intent is what matters. He could have just as easily said no and left it at that. Instead, he casually throws some Mind Control around. It served no real purpose in context of the setting. We all know that the drug dealer most likely didn't stop selling death sticks and we can likely agree that, even if he did, there are hundreds to thousands more like him that continue to do so. It did not further his goal to find the assassin, unless he was testing the death stick dealers will power by using Mind Trick (by assuming the assassin has a stronger will and would be able to resist). All that the Mind Trick accomplished was casually playing with the free will of another sentient.

 

Jedi seem to use the same powers as Sith, just at a lesser power setting. If the Jedi can routinely do Ego + 10 effects, what could a Sith, or a Jedi inclined to push the ability to the limit, accomplish? Total, if temporary subversion? Long-term reprogramming?

[austenandrews]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

That IS what I argued. The original statement seemed to be that the Jedi was manipulating organs to heal the person. In that case' date=' the pain is a side effect, the same with any other surgery. But causing pain is not the primary purpose of the power use.[/quote']

Ah, my mistake then. I misread you. We seem to be in agreement.

[austenandrews]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

Gag or not' date=' if we look at in light of the morality discussion, Obi-Wan's intent is what matters. He could have just as easily said no and left it at that. Instead, he casually throws some Mind Control around. It served no real purpose in context of the setting.[/quote']

The dealer may have pestered him and drawn unwanted attention. Any other action hero might have clocked the guy, which would have thwarted his free will just as much. Jedi do it without violence. I don't see what's so bad here. He may have even helped the guy a little with his life.

 

Jedi seem to use the same powers as Sith, just at a lesser power setting. If the Jedi can routinely do Ego + 10 effects, what could a Sith, or a Jedi inclined to push the ability to the limit, accomplish? Total, if temporary subversion? Long-term reprogramming?

That's why I pointed out how the Force's mental influence went from Vader practically killing a guy to Jabba scoffing at an old "Jedi mind trick." The implication is that it's just "a trick," a minor effect, not something with sinister overtones. It seemed to be regarded as a very minor, if occasionally handy use of the Force.

 

(And in truth, I don't agree that a Sith's abilities are more powerful than a Jedi's. But that's a different geek argument. )

[Nolgroth]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

The dealer may have pestered him and drawn unwanted attention....He may have even helped the guy a little with his life.

Maybe. It looked more to me like the dealer was just trying to make a sale. I also doubt that he helped the guy with his life. His instruction was to rethink his life. Without knowing much about the dealer, we can assume either way; he liked his life or he didn't. Heck, he may have reformed. He may also have rethought his decision to stay on Coruscant instead of moving to Nar Shadaa.

 

(And in truth, I don't agree that a Sith's abilities are more powerful than a Jedi's. But that's a different geek argument. )

Oh I don't necessarily believe that a Sith's abilities are more powerful, rather the Sith have much less of a qualm at pumping power into the abilities to achieve a greater effect.

[Badger]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

I have always thought of it as the Jedi and Sith werent necessarily weaker or stronger. But (at least with the way Lucas did it) the Sith seems to use his "repertoire" of powers more efficiently (or has less ethical restrictions on it). Though I always felt this is a limit we can think on the inability to tell a story properly by Lucas than anything else.

 

For me I kind of took 1-3 doesnt exist attitiude. Well ROTJ doesnt exist past the scene BEFORE the first appearance of Wicket.

 

 

Course, I am not sure we can attribute it to bad acting, so much as it is probably pretty hard adjusting to having been surrounded by a green screen (or blue or whatever they use for that CGI stuff)

[Mike W]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

I don't think it is so much that the Jedi are "weaker" in the sense that they can do less with the force. I just think they are not as combat oriented as the Sith are. The Sith are all about kicking butt and causing pain and destruction. The Jedi are about peace, so they probably have a wider variety of powers and spend less time working on combat stuff, so individually they generally aren't as good in combat.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

I don't think it is so much that the Jedi are "weaker" in the sense that they can do less with the force. I just think they are not as combat oriented as the Sith are. The Sith are all about kicking butt and causing pain and destruction. The Jedi are about peace' date=' so they probably have a wider variety of powers and spend less time working on combat stuff, so individually they generally aren't as good in combat.[/quote']For being so "peaceful," the Jedi sure tend to leave trails of bodies in their wake.

[Curufea]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

But they are only CGI bodies, with little to no blood - so it doesn't count.

[austenandrews]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that knights with laser swords are "peaceful." It looks to me like the Jedi were never hesitant to take care of business. They're serene and don't start fights, but they certainly charge into situations where the fight will inevitably come to them. Among other things, they're professional warriors.

[Vondy]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

Dark Side points shouldn't exist in the first place. The turning to the darkside is supposed to be a dramatic and personal event - something that plays out in story form and not dry mechanics. Further, its not just the dark side that was squishier in the movies/books. It was also the Code of the Jedi, which is really a philosophy. And when one has become a master of a philosophy, then one has made his philosophy and made it his own. I think the Jedi Code, as written, is almost unplayable. I also think we run into problems when we talk about "evil acts" - is the act in of itself evil, or is it the circumstances, motives and method that are the key to whether an otherwise non-moral act is rendered moral or immoral. For instance, there is a time to kill and a time to stay your hand. Most would agree taking the life of a pursuer with muderous intent is not evil. Indeed, some would argue its obligatory. And the sex act, is it good or bad? Most would say it depends on who you do it with (defining the who and who not based on their cultural assumptions). I don't live in a black and white world and can't relate to black and white game mechanics. If the path to the dark side is marked with sign posts its not very interesting. Also, I concur, the GM was wrong. Two reasons: he treated it as a mechanic instead of a story element AND his interpretation is deeply subjective and not something the player would have guessed on his own.

[Vondy]

Re: Jedi and evil actions

 

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that knights with laser swords are "peaceful." It looks to me like the Jedi were never hesitant to take care of business. They're serene and don't start fights' date=' but they certainly charge into situations where the fight will inevitably come to them. Among other things, they're professional warriors.[/quote']

 

Cosmic Samurai: I'll chop your head off without a ripple in my wa (1) for I have done it in the manner of junsui keiken (2) having obtained a state of pure mu (3). One must not act from zettai mujunteki jiko dojitsu (4) for that leads to the side of Ankoku (5).

 

(1) harmony, (2) pure experience, (3) trancendtal nothingness, (4) conflicted identiry, (5) darkness.