Affects Solid World

[DangerousDan]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Steve's answer makes perfect sense from a balance POV. Imagine this:

 

Desolid Gun Bunny puts her gun on the floor, goes desolid, picks up her gun with her 'affects solid world' strength (10 STR) and fires the gun (a 60 AP power). She can still attack but is pretty much immune to return fire. Perfectly logical. Horribly abusive.

 

60 AP = 4d6 RKA, which is abusive enough while solid. Being able to do so while desolid, priceless. {sorry, couldn't resist.}

 

Now, IMC, you would rarely need more than 60 AP to affect solid to cover most commonly encountered damaging effects, so it would generally be enough [and thus occasional exceptions would fall under fair use of power tricks] - but if you're in a world where weapons tend to be more powerful, pay.

 

And, if you're in a world where weapons tend to be less powerful, pay less, but pay some.

 

I repeat - it makes no sense for _some_ (maybe even most) special effects of desolid. For some SFX's that does make sense.

...

If your character should be able to become insubstantial while still being able to pick up weapons and use them, buy the ability to go insubstantial while still being able to pick up weapons and use them.

 

I often disagree with WhammeWhamme, but not in this thread. Her arguments make excellent sense and mesh with Steve Long's ruling on attacking with ASW STR. Armor Piercing STR doesn't enable Armor Piercing HKA with a picked up blade. Why should ASW on STR be transferred to an HKA or any other attack?

 

Say you had 20 STR ASW, You could pick up a baseball bat alright, and swing it to cause up to 4d6 damage, but no more (unless the extra damage comes from a martial manouvre). If you pick up a knife or sword I'd probably allow you to do up to 4DC of kill attack (1d6 +1).

 

The way I'd justify capping your setrength is that anything harder and the object just slips through your hands.

 

Not rules perfect, but a reasonable fusion of sense and rules that I'd be OK with.

 

One possiblilty is buying the ASW as a series of naked advantages in a MP

.

.

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Not perfectly 'logical' but reasonably balanced (IMPO)

 

And doesn't cause the brain strain that is produced by buying a Naked Advantage of ASW on 20 points of unspecified Power. FRED doesn't specifically forbid creating a Naked Advantage without defining what it is an advantage ON, but it is at best highly questionable. Like Sean, even though it violates Steve Long's ruling on using ASW STR, I'd probably let you get away with 4DC of damage using 20 ASW STR whether you were using a HTH weapon or bare fist, but no more.

 

In short, either find a way to pay for your ASW attacks or find a way to explain or accept why you can't do that. Accept that some character constructs are not simple and straightforward. If, for your character, picking up bowling balls and dropping them on people can cause them damage, find a way to pay for the ability or redefine the character so that it no longer makes sense that the dropped ball does damage or find another character concept. Accept that ASW attacks from Desolid characters are meant to be expensive--not free.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Did you read the bit where I'd consider _occasional_ use to fall under power tricks?

 

Remember, the rules DO allow for you to occasionally overstep the mechanical limits of your purchased powers.

 

Pressing a button, driving a vehicle, or lighting a match is more than a 'power trick'. The orbital death ray might only occur once, but pressing a button in general occurs far more often.

 

 

It's the same suspension of disbelief you have to apply whenever your character doesn't always choose the utterly tactically efficient option.

 

They _can_ do it. But if the player intends to do it more often than occasionally, they need to pay the points for what they intend to do more often than occasionally.

 

Nope, it's the type of suspension of disbelief where Bugs Bunny can stand in the air and not fall because he never learned the Law of Gravity. Where Wiley Coyote can stand in the air without any problems until the Roadrunner points down and makes Wiley realize he's standing hundreds of feet in the air.

 

Pressing a button or opening a door is the exact same thing no matter what's behind the button or door.

 

 

Now, IMC, you would rarely need more than 60 AP to affect solid to cover most commonly encountered damaging effects, so it would generally be enough [and thus occasional exceptions would fall under fair use of power tricks] - but if you're in a world where weapons tend to be more powerful, pay.

 

Have you seen some the real world effects? Especially if you add in advantages such as Area Effect or Explosion or Armor Piercing etc. Or poisons which are typically built on hundreds of active points.

 

And as for the car... remember the bit where it was _using it as a weapon_ that was the problem? Yeah, the Force Wall is going to end up with you crashing. Besides. 60 AP would cover the STR of the car.

 

Not after movethrough damage was accounted for. And not if it were something like an airplane.

 

It's not 'using as weapon', it's doing damage at all that's the heart of Steve's ruling. If you can't do damage, you can't crash into a Force Wall or a barrier you can't see.

 

That would be hysterical. In your world if there was terrible visibility, you can have the desolid guy drive the car because it would be impossible for him to crash into anything no matter what the terrain was.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

That would be hysterical. In your world if there was terrible visibility' date=' you can have the desolid guy drive the car because it would be impossible for him to crash into anything no matter what the terrain was. [/quote']

Well, to be fair that is a slightly different case. The vehicle would be doing the damage, not the character. A vehicle has its own stats (it is almost a character) and can be damaged even when the driver cannot. Using an attack that is normally owned directly by the character and cannot be retaliated against directly is a bit different.

 

Of course, all of these examples are really of the character using something that does exist in the solid world and thus could conceivably be affected by potential targets: Foci can be attacked (I also see no reason Disarm or Grab couldn't work), a target could try to disarm a grenade or other explosive device (or jump on it ), there might be time to destroy the death ray, etc. So I see how it could be reasonable to allow such attacks even if the character hasn't bought Affects Solid World for them.

[OddHat]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

My own view on this is that if a given use of STR would not cost the character extra points under normal circumstances, it has already been covered by the cost of buying ASW on STR while desolid.

 

If it would cost him points (say using a focus in a Champions game), then he should pay the points to apply ASW to it.

 

In a setting where equipment must be paid for, it would be similar to a PC who tried to "borrow" his team mate's focus in a given battle. If the borrower did it once in a great while, I wouldn't charge him anything. If he were to start borrowing the focus regularly, I'd ask him to pay for it. If ASW man wants to grab a gun and start shooting in that game, the first time or two I would hand wave it. After that, I'd eventually ask him to pay for a naked ASW advantage. I'd never ask him to pay for pressing the button on the orbital death ray, any more than I'd ask any hero who got to the control panel to pay those points.

 

In a setting where all normal equipment was free, I'd allow ASW guy to grab dropped pistols whenever the situation came up. If he wanted to carry his own, or have his buddy carry one for him, I'd ask him to pay the points.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Your entire argument is based on nothing.

I can accept that you draw nothing from it, but it is in fact based on logic and consistancy. Physical objects obey the laws of physics. If I can affect solid objects, then I can affect solid objects. If I move a chair, and someone tries to sit in it without looking, he'll fall to the floor. If I press a button, the button is pressed, and whatever that button is connected to will happen.

 

You built your character incorrectly. They do not have the abilities you wanted them to. That is YOUR mistake.

What character? What mistake?

 

It is not absurd that you can't do something you didn't pay the points to be able to do.

No, but it is wrong. I can pick up a rock and throw it, even if I didn't pay for a ranged attack. I can drive a car even if I didn't buy lots of Running. I can press the button on the orbital death ray, even if I didn't buy the orbital death ray.

 

WHY should you be able to apply ASW (unlike every other advantage) to objects you pick up just because you took it on your STR?

Because the objects I pick up aren't desolid. Because you paid +2 for it. Because solid objects obey the laws of physics. STR affects the solid world normally. It loses this normal ability when you go Desolid. The +2 ASW is really more like buying off a limitation, than an advantage. ASW just means that STR works normally. Perhaps the whole Desolid/ASW rules should be structured differently, like letting ASW be an advantage/adder on the Desolid itself.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I can accept that you draw nothing from it' date=' but it is in fact based on logic and consistancy. Physical objects obey the laws of physics. If I can affect solid objects, then I can affect solid objects. If I move a chair, and someone tries to sit in it without looking, he'll fall to the floor. If I press a button, the button is pressed, and whatever that button is connected to will happen.[/quote']

I completely understand your logical, common sense difficulty with this. The truth is, though, that the system is more about game effects (particularly combat effects) than physics or even logic. The ruling is there because of a problem in game balance: it is nasty to be able to affect targets without being able to be affected by them. You pay seriously to be able to use your Str to affect targets, but this shouldn't--balance-wise--enable you to use arbitrary attacks to affect targets; only your Str. It could be especially unbalancing if you pay to be able to use just a little bit of Str while desolidified, and with it you use a much much larger attack that happens to be through a focus or whatever.

 

So while I'd love to fix the logical inconsistencies that the ruling produces, there has to be some kind of balancing factor as well. That is what the system is designed around: you get what you pay for. I've made some suggestions (see above), but I'm not entirely sure they are sufficient. I think either approach could be reasonable, but care must be taken.

 

Let's stop saying, "This doesn't make sense; I don't like it!" and keep on track with the productive argument over how we can fix it so that things aren't unbalancing. And no, I'm not talking only about your posts; I think several contributors have gotten a little derailed into being less than productive.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I can accept that you draw nothing from it' date=' but it is in fact based on logic and consistancy. Physical objects obey the laws of physics. If I can affect solid objects, then I can affect solid objects. If I move a chair, and someone tries to sit in it without looking, he'll fall to the floor. If I press a button, the button is pressed, and whatever that button is connected to will happen. [/quote']

 

No. The laws of physics went out the window the second you introduced _ghosts_ (or something else supernatural). Those thus become _likely_ outcomes.

 

If a being that is a walking violation of physics can affect solid objects, but only in particular ways, that makes sense.

 

It is possible to have a logically concepted character who can exert force on the real world while insubstantial but only in specific ways.

 

Therefore, the fact that it is POSSIBLE to build a character with those restrictions on them does not, in any way, shape or form, defy physics any more than being able to build any character who goes desolid does.

 

Do you get that? You cannot claim that there is never a reason to build a character with ASW on nothing but their STR. Because there can be.

 

Do you get that? Or do I have to rephrase it twenty more times?

 

What character? What mistake?

 

 

No, but it is wrong. I can pick up a rock and throw it, even if I didn't pay for a ranged attack. I can drive a car even if I didn't buy lots of Running. I can press the button on the orbital death ray, even if I didn't buy the orbital death ray.

 

And if you are desolid, you can do none of those. If you are desolid, you lose ALL those abilities. Much like how, if you are Grown, you now weigh more and thus cannot squeeze through a normal doorway.

 

Because, you know, that's part of being insubstantial.

 

Because the objects I pick up aren't desolid. Because you paid +2 for it. Because solid objects obey the laws of physics. STR affects the solid world normally. It loses this normal ability when you go Desolid. The +2 ASW is really more like buying off a limitation, than an advantage. ASW just means that STR works normally. Perhaps the whole Desolid/ASW rules should be structured differently, like letting ASW be an advantage/adder on the Desolid itself.

 

Solid objects only obey the laws of physics in a game when there isn't a Power making them do something else.

 

ASW is an advantage.

 

What SHOULD change is people should stop making nonsensical arguments about the physics of poltergeists throwing stuff around.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I often disagree with WhammeWhamme, but not in this thread. Her arguments make excellent sense and mesh with Steve Long's ruling on attacking with ASW STR. Armor Piercing STR doesn't enable Armor Piercing HKA with a picked up blade. Why should ASW on STR be transferred to an HKA or any other attack?

 

 

Dude, I'm a dude.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Pressing a button' date=' driving a vehicle, or lighting a match is more than a 'power trick'. The orbital death ray might only occur once, but pressing a button in general occurs far more often. [/quote']

 

But usually pressing a button will not cause effects in excess of (a given AP value, perhaps 60 for your campaign, perhaps not). The times when it DOES exceed that will fall under 'reasonable occasional exceptions'.

 

Nope, it's the type of suspension of disbelief where Bugs Bunny can stand in the air and not fall because he never learned the Law of Gravity. Where Wiley Coyote can stand in the air without any problems until the Roadrunner points down and makes Wiley realize he's standing hundreds of feet in the air.

 

No, it is not. And unlike you, I will explain WHY:

 

Your character will never actually encounter a situation where the absurdities you describe happen. Therefore, at no point will something absurd happen.

 

The price they pay for this is one of two things:

 

1) Pay the real price for the INCREDIBLY POWERFUL ability that you want them to have. This is doable. It might cost ~1000 points, BUT YOU COULD DO IT. The fact that you don't want to because it costs too much is, frankly your problem.

 

2) Pay for an abbreviated version and only exceed your purchased limits occasionally and with GM approval to get a little extra based on SFX.

 

In both examples, you never end up with anything 'stupid' happening. And you don't break the rules, and you don't allow someone to build a character whose points cost does not represent the costs assigned to what they can do.

 

Pressing a button or opening a door is the exact same thing no matter what's behind the button or door.

 

No, it has different consequences in each instance.

 

And it's probably a different button and door.

 

 

Have you seen some the real world effects? Especially if you add in advantages such as Area Effect or Explosion or Armor Piercing etc. Or poisons which are typically built on hundreds of active points.

 

This would actually be a problem with a _different_ area of the rules,the one where you buy a floating advantage, not for the base effect (xd6 RKA), but for the entire AP cost (NND, Does Body, etc).

 

If you want to go argue about THAT being bass-ackwards, I'll back you to the hilt.

 

Not after movethrough damage was accounted for. And not if it were something like an airplane.

 

It's not 'using as weapon', it's doing damage at all that's the heart of Steve's ruling. If you can't do damage, you can't crash into a Force Wall or a barrier you can't see.

 

That would be hysterical. In your world if there was terrible visibility, you can have the desolid guy drive the car because it would be impossible for him to crash into anything no matter what the terrain was.

 

Affects Physical World on a character's STR applies only to that STR. It does not allow a character to pick up weapons while Desolidified and use them on solid targets or anything of the sort; it only allows him to use his standard STR as an attack. He could pick solid objects' date=' but he can't wield them as weapons. [/quote']

 

He said 'weapons'.

 

So I'll actually say I was wrong: you can, in fact, use a car freely with ASW STR. Go nuts.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

The ruling is there because of a problem in game balance: it is nasty to be able to affect targets without being able to be affected by them. You pay seriously to be able to use your Str to affect targets, but this shouldn't--balance-wise--enable you to use arbitrary attacks to affect targets; only your Str. It could be especially unbalancing if you pay to be able to use just a little bit of Str while desolidified, and with it you use a much much larger attack that happens to be through a focus or whatever.

 

So while I'd love to fix the logical inconsistencies that the ruling produces, there has to be some kind of balancing factor as well.

There is a balancing factor: The GM and the environment that he creates and has complete contol over. The GM decides whether there is an orbital death ray and if the PCs can get to the button that activates it. If a character has bought a weapon (with points or money), then that's part of his character and the GM does not have complete control over it. In that case, yes, the weapon needs to have ASW as well (or the player can simply decide he won't use it while desolid).

 

But weapons and other objects that could potentially be used as weapons (which means practically anything: bowling balls, furniture, vehicles, custard pies, people, trees, banana peels, ball point pens,...) that the GM places in the environment, and which the PCs then have access to, are easily controlled for game balance. It's easy for someone to Dodge or Block the bowling ball. It should be reasonably easy to Disarm or Grab the weapon from a Desolid character. It should be easy to prevent someone from pressing a button as well (the exact details of how this is done will depend on circumstances and SFX of the Desolid, and perhaps even more importantly, the SFX of the ASW). And if it's an orbital death ray, the ray itself is still subject to damage/destruction.

 

Please understand: I am not advocating upsetting the game balance in any way. I fully appreciate that attacks from desolid characters can be abusive, but 60+ points, plus 7 END, really should get you something significant.

 

And of course, all Desolids still have a method by which they can be attacked. And even if you don't have that one, Affects Desolid is only a +1/2 Advantage.

 

"Oh no! The evil Dark Cloud is about to press the button on the orbital death ray! What'll we do?" "He's in his cloud form, there's absolutely nothing we can do! We might as well give up!" - An experienced HERO player should be able to come up with a dozen things to do in this scenario.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

You're players aren't allowed to leave the table to go to the bathroom??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects this is one of those odd British expressions

 

That's OK. It's when he empties everyone else's catheter bags I get really mad.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

There is a balancing factor: The GM and the environment that he creates and has complete contol over. The GM decides whether there is an orbital death ray and if the PCs can get to the button that activates it. If a character has bought a weapon (with points or money), then that's part of his character and the GM does not have complete control over it. In that case, yes, the weapon needs to have ASW as well (or the player can simply decide he won't use it while desolid).

 

But weapons and other objects that could potentially be used as weapons (which means practically anything: bowling balls, furniture, vehicles, custard pies, people, trees, banana peels, ball point pens,...) that the GM places in the environment, and which the PCs then have access to, are easily controlled for game balance. It's easy for someone to Dodge or Block the bowling ball. It should be reasonably easy to Disarm or Grab the weapon from a Desolid character. It should be easy to prevent someone from pressing a button as well (the exact details of how this is done will depend on circumstances and SFX of the Desolid, and perhaps even more importantly, the SFX of the ASW). And if it's an orbital death ray, the ray itself is still subject to damage/destruction.

 

Please understand: I am not advocating upsetting the game balance in any way. I fully appreciate that attacks from desolid characters can be abusive, but 60+ points, plus 7 END, really should get you something significant.

 

And of course, all Desolids still have a method by which they can be attacked. And even if you don't have that one, Affects Desolid is only a +1/2 Advantage.

 

"Oh no! The evil Dark Cloud is about to press the button on the orbital death ray! What'll we do?" "He's in his cloud form, there's absolutely nothing we can do! We might as well give up!" - An experienced HERO player should be able to come up with a dozen things to do in this scenario.

Hmm. I don't know. Why do we require the Affects Solid World Advantage at all then? You can do things about any attack. There is nothing keeping you from using Dodge or Block against an attack made by a desolidified attacker. You just can't attack back without a special Advantage or the kind of attack defined by the Desolidification Power being used.

 

If you are going to use those arguments, perhaps we should drop the Affects Solid World Advantage completely and just let desolidified characters attack without restriction. In fact, I suppose we could turn the inability to attack while desolidified into a Limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

.................................

"Oh no! The evil Dark Cloud is about to press the button on the orbital death ray! What'll we do?" "He's in his cloud form, there's absolutely nothing we can do! We might as well give up!" - An experienced HERO player should be able to come up with a dozen things to do in this scenario.

 

 

Nah - that's the noob. the experienced player comes up with one thing that actually works

 

My concern is not that powers might be unbalancing in the hands of the GM, it is that they might be unbalancing in the hands of the players, and it can be difficult to balance in game without appearing to pick on individuals. If I let a player buy a power that power is going to be effective, not constantly scuppered by the deus ex.

 

I'd rather have the restrictions set out right at the start so everyone knows what they are getting into.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Dude' date=' I'm a dude.[/quote']

 

Let me extend my Sincerest apologies for my error. It was not intentional.

 

Your avatar reminded me of the face of a comedienne I've seen on the TV (who's name escapes me), and that is the sole basis for my incorrect determination of your gender.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Doc sez...

 

Damn, I had a much longer reply written out and then the site timed out.

 

Anyway, an answer which might resolve this situation (allowing for the PC the pick up and use weapons while respecting Steve's ruling) would be to add another level to ARW for another +1/2 (or more) to account for the extra benefits. This lets everyone have the power structure be a bit better balanced by making it cost more.

 

Doc Tough

 

Totally off topic-- if that happens again, try this:

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[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Let me extend my Sincerest apologies for my error. It was not intentional.

 

Your avatar reminded me of the face of a comedienne I've seen on the TV (who's name escapes me), and that is the sole basis for my incorrect determination of your gender.

 

It's no big... well, 'cept for the fact that my avatar is a picture of myself, and this I apparently look feminine...

[Lucius]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

It's no big... well' date=' 'cept for the fact that my avatar is a picture of myself, and this I apparently look feminine... [/quote']

 

I think it's rather that the comedienne in question just does NOT look feminine.

 

I mean, I don't think anyone's saying you look like a woman, just that a certain woman looks like you.

 

On the topic:

 

If your character construction gets bizzarre and unacceptable results, that means you didn't construct the character right, or someone is not interpreting the rules right.

 

 

Buying "Affects Solid World" as a "naked" advantage instead of, or along with, buying it on STR, will help reduce the "but that just doesn't make SENSE" factor. If whoever's running the game is reasonable about allowing the occasional "push the button to activate the orbital death ray" situation, then the rest of the problem evaporates.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that while I just had a wonderful day off, I have to return to work tomorrow - EARLY. Yipes. Goodnight everyone.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Hmm. I don't know. Why do we require the Affects Solid World Advantage at all then?

Is this a serious question? It's required because it's an advantage. Duh. That's how the whole system works. You have to pay for the Advantages you have. You might as well ask why do we require *any* advantages.

 

When you buy Desolid, you determine that you no longer interact with the solid world (at least mostly). You may fully interact with Desolid people and things that have the same SFX Desolid as you. If you want to affect Solid things as well, you buy ASW.

 

If you are going to use those arguments, perhaps we should drop the Affects Solid World Advantage completely and just let desolidified characters attack without restriction. In fact, I suppose we could turn the inability to attack while desolidified into a Limitation.

That would be one way to go. But of course, the price Desolid would have to be increased, probably by quite a bit.

 

I think of ASW as meaning, "Works exactly the same way as it would if I wasn't Desolid."

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Is this a serious question? It's required because it's an advantage. Duh. That's how the whole system works. You have to pay for the Advantages you have. You might as well ask why do we require *any* advantages.

 

When you buy Desolid, you determine that you no longer interact with the solid world (at least mostly). You may fully interact with Desolid people and things that have the same SFX Desolid as you. If you want to affect Solid things as well, you buy ASW.

 

 

That would be one way to go. But of course, the price Desolid would have to be increased, probably by quite a bit.

 

I think of ASW as meaning, "Works exactly the same way as it would if I wasn't Desolid."

 

That last line inspired an interesting thought.

 

Yes... ASW let's it work as it would if you weren't desolid. It does that to the power in question.

 

But IS it STR along that lets you flip a switch, use a gun, or throw a rock?

 

Well... TK says no, there's also Fine Manipulation. I'd add that there's also basic manipulation.

 

"Physical Limitation: No Manipulation" is worth ~20 points.

 

So. Flat cost of 40 points to be able to move objects (+2 on the base 'given' power). Plus however much STR you want to actually be able to exert.

 

(This is based on the logic of the cost of Normal Sight and so on).

 

 

This might be an acceptable mid point. It doesn't leave the cost at 'scales to fit the campaign', and it explains in very simple terms why you need more than ASW on STR alone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

OK, here's the way I've played APW and the way I intend to play it in future, unless anyone has a better idea. this is a super-centric viewpoint, but see notes....

 

1. If you have APW on STR then you can do anything with your strength that you could do if you had not got desolid switched on.

 

2. Although, arguably, you should buy it for BODY if you want 'mass', if you have full STR bought with APW then you can apply your full weight. If you have APW on part of your strength, you can apply your mass in proportion.

 

3. There is obviously a degree of logical feedback here: if you arm wrestle someone when desolid, then you will feel the force applied, so you CAN potentially be damaged, but if that is likely to happen I'll allow you to abort to 'full desolid' if you want, obviously letting go of whatever you had hold of.

 

4. If you pick up something hot (for instance) it won't (sfx of desolid aside) burn you.

 

5. Technically you can still haymaker a APW punch, but pushed strength will only net you +3 points as you have to take into onsideration the advantage - so it is not worth it.

 

6. You can pick up and manipulate objects as you could if not desolid, but if you regularly use 'objects of opportunity' to do direct damage you'll need to pay points for them, i.e. buy a naked APW advantage.

 

7. I find in super-settings there is usually at least someone who can deal with a desolid character; I don't use desolid villains if the players can't, or at least I don't use APW with desolid villains if the player's can't do anything to them: no fair. If a player wants this kind of set-up i'll monitor the build and the abuse potential and disallow it ab initio if I think it is going to be misused.

 

 

 

Notes: in non-super-settings desolid is generally rarer, as are the ways around it so it is generally capable of being far more unbalancing, IME. Everything I said above goes (apart from having to pay to use 'equipment') only more so.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

But IS it STR along that lets you flip a switch' date=' use a gun, or throw a rock?[/quote']

Yes. That's why weapons have STR minimums, and why the throwing table is based on STR.

 

Well... TK says no, there's also Fine Manipulation. I'd add that there's also basic manipulation.

 

"Physical Limitation: No Manipulation" is worth ~20 points.

Eh? You don't need fine manipulation to throw a rock, pull a trigger, or press a button.

 

Manipulation with your hands is free - it's the default assumption if you don't take the PhysLim of No Hands or something like that. I can understand requiring costing it out and buying ASW on it if you want to use a complex weapon, or type on a keyboard, or perform surgery while Desolid (though I probably wouldn't). But for normal things like most of what we've been talking about, I don't think fine manipulation is an issue. Now, if a ghost doesn't have arms at all, then no, he can't throw rocks or use a gun. (If I was in a generous mood, I might let him try to do it with his mouth or his feet, at severe penalties.)

 

This might be an acceptable mid point. It doesn't leave the cost at 'scales to fit the campaign', and it explains in very simple terms why you need more than ASW on STR alone.

I suppose that's one way to go, if necessary. I might do it if the players started to abuse their ASW priveleges. Maybe I've been very lucky with the non-munchkinness of players, and as I've said, I don't recall this issue ever coming up in a game I was in (or at least that I was GMing).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Yes. That's why weapons have STR minimums, and why the throwing table is based on STR.

 

 

Eh? You don't need fine manipulation to throw a rock, pull a trigger, or press a button.

 

Yes, yes you do. Normal characters have it for free, yes, but like I said - to use it with TK, you need to buy it.

 

Manipulation with your hands is free - it's the default assumption if you don't take the PhysLim of No Hands or something like that. I can understand requiring costing it out and buying ASW on it if you want to use a complex weapon, or type on a keyboard, or perform surgery while Desolid (though I probably wouldn't). But for normal things like most of what we've been talking about, I don't think fine manipulation is an issue. Now, if a ghost doesn't have arms at all, then no, he can't throw rocks or use a gun. (If I was in a generous mood, I might let him try to do it with his mouth or his feet, at severe penalties.)

 

 

I suppose that's one way to go, if necessary. I might do it if the players started to abuse their ASW priveleges. Maybe I've been very lucky with the non-munchkinness of players, and as I've said, I don't recall this issue ever coming up in a game I was in (or at least that I was GMing).

 

I'd keep arguing, but apparently you play games where point totals and values don't matter at all.

 

The point of the rules as written is to apply an appropriate cost for what you can do.

 

60 points to go desolid, pick up a rocket launcher, and start blowing away supervillains is not balanced. 60 points to go desolid, pick up a nerf bat, and achieve nothing IS.

 

If your players nerf themselves, you don't need rules. Congrats.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

That last line inspired an interesting thought.

 

Yes... ASW let's it work as it would if you weren't desolid. It does that to the power in question.

 

But IS it STR along that lets you flip a switch, use a gun, or throw a rock?

 

Well... TK says no, there's also Fine Manipulation. I'd add that there's also basic manipulation.

 

"Physical Limitation: No Manipulation" is worth ~20 points.

 

So. Flat cost of 40 points to be able to move objects (+2 on the base 'given' power). Plus however much STR you want to actually be able to exert.

 

(This is based on the logic of the cost of Normal Sight and so on).

 

 

This might be an acceptable mid point. It doesn't leave the cost at 'scales to fit the campaign', and it explains in very simple terms why you need more than ASW on STR alone.

I think you've hit on an excellent solution there, WW.

Extending/clarifying your logic a touch...

No Fine Manipulation is a 10 pt disad.

Fine Manipulation is a +10 point adder to TK

No Manipulation is arguably a 20 point disad.

this gives us 2 tiers of manipulation

Basic for 10 points, Fine for 20

Fine Manipulation is considered the default Everyman level.

so applying the +2 Advantage, Affects Solid World could be done at either level, for 20 pts for ASW Basic Manip, and 40 for ASW Fine Manip.

Then add ASW for Str and go to town.

Well Done!

Repped

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Yes' date=' yes you do. Normal characters have it for free, yes, but like I said - to use it with TK, you need to buy it.[/quote']

No, you don't. You can press a button with your elbow, you can pull a trigger with one finger. Fine manipulation is for more precise things like defusing a bomb, performing surgery, typing at normal speed, handling delicate objects, making art, etc. Throwing, bashing, pulling, pushing, squeezing, grabbing, holding, and lifting do not require fine manipulation.

 

I'd keep arguing, but apparently you play games where point totals and values don't matter at all.

I don't mean to "keep arguing," but I have no idea why you would draw such a conclusion. Point values definitely matter in my games. Just because my players aren't munchkins, doesn't mean the points don't matter. They are interested in fairness, as I am.

 

As I said before, I don't recall ever having a PC in a game I was GMing who had Desolid and ASW on their Strength. If there ever is such a character, and they started to abuse the ability, I would certainly put a stop to the abuse.

 

60 points to go desolid, pick up a rocket launcher, and start blowing away supervillains is not balanced. 60 points to go desolid, pick up a nerf bat, and achieve nothing IS.

How about paying 0 points, picking up a rocket launcher and blowing away supervillains? According to the rules, you can already do that. Is that unbalanced?

 

If your players nerf themselves, you don't need rules. Congrats.

Are we speaking two different languages? My players don't nerf themselves, and I don't nerf them either. If I didn't care about the rules and the points, I wouldn't be posting here at all.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

No' date=' you don't. You can press a button with your elbow, you can pull a trigger with one finger. Fine manipulation is for more precise things like defusing a bomb, performing surgery, typing at normal speed, handling delicate objects, making art, etc. Throwing, bashing, pulling, pushing, squeezing, grabbing, holding, and lifting do not require fine manipulation. [/quote']

 

If you're going to quote the letter of the rules, we go back to requiring you to pay for any attack powers you intend to use while desolid.

 

Because that is what has been said.

 

I don't mean to "keep arguing," but I have no idea why you would draw such a conclusion. Point values definitely matter in my games. Just because my players aren't munchkins, doesn't mean the points don't matter. They are interested in fairness, as I am.

 

Then why do you not see that 60 points is FAR too cheap to be fair for being able to become largely invulnerable without losing the ability to attack, and while in fact gaining the ability to walk through walls...?

 

 

If something is fairly priced because, and only because, no one is actually using it to it's fullest extent... it is not, in fact, fairly priced.

 

 

As I said before, I don't recall ever having a PC in a game I was GMing who had Desolid and ASW on their Strength. If there ever is such a character, and they started to abuse the ability, I would certainly put a stop to the abuse.

 

Abuse which you would have already encouraged by creating house rules to make it about 80 points cheaper.

 

How about paying 0 points, picking up a rocket launcher and blowing away supervillains? According to the rules, you can already do that. Is that unbalanced?

 

 

Are we speaking two different languages? My players don't nerf themselves, and I don't nerf them either. If I didn't care about the rules and the points, I wouldn't be posting here at all.

 

You're on the side of throwing out a rule designed to make people pay the point cost apprpropriate to their capabilities on the the grounds of aesthetics...