Affects Solid World

[Kristopher]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I also think there is a fundamental game philosophy difference at work here. Some players seem to want to be able design characters that the GM is helpless to keep from unbalancing their campaigns so long as the player can point to the construction being legal. That simply is not a wise course for any GM to permit' date=' IMHO. Unbalanced characters or abilities not only mess up the GM's campaign but generally seem to ruin the game for other players whose characters seem unnecessary.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's OK.

 

The GM, with input from the players, is still the final arbitor of what is and is not allowed in the game. The fact that something is a legal build by the book shouldn't handcuff the GM into allowing it in the game if he honestly feels that it doesn't belong.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I am reminded of the movie Ghost, in which Patrick Swayzie's character could affect the physical world but only within certain limitations and only when focused or emotionally charged. Thus, given that Desolidification is not a real world ability, it seems illogical to determine the way its physics must work according to normal science. In the whole context of fictional characters with imaginary powers, construction SFX time seems a little late in the game to decide that real world physics be inflexibly and perfectly followed.

 

I also think there is a fundamental game philosophy difference at work here. Some players seem to want to be able design characters that the GM is helpless to keep from unbalancing their campaigns so long as the player can point to the construction being legal. That simply is not a wise course for any GM to permit, IMHO. Unbalanced characters or abilities not only mess up the GM's campaign but generally seem to ruin the game for other players whose characters seem unnecessary.

 

I agree with everything except Partick Swayzie (sp?) being mentioned in a public forum

[Doc Tough]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Doc sez...

 

Damn, I had a much longer reply written out and then the site timed out.

 

Anyway, an answer which might resolve this situation (allowing for the PC the pick up and use weapons while respecting Steve's ruling) would be to add another level to ARW for another +1/2 (or more) to account for the extra benefits. This lets everyone have the power structure be a bit better balanced by making it cost more.

 

Doc Tough

[Mentor]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I agree with everything except Partick Swayzie (sp?) being mentioned in a public forum

Well, yes, sometimes unpleasant topics just have to be aired out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I am reminded of the movie Ghost, in which Patrick Swayzie's character could affect the physical world but only within certain limitations and only when focused or emotionally charged. Thus, given that Desolidification is not a real world ability, it seems illogical to determine the way its physics must work according to normal science. In the whole context of fictional characters with imaginary powers, construction SFX time seems a little late in the game to decide that real world physics be inflexibly and perfectly followed.

 

I also think there is a fundamental game philosophy difference at work here. Some players seem to want to be able design characters that the GM is helpless to keep from unbalancing their campaigns so long as the player can point to the construction being legal. That simply is not a wise course for any GM to permit, IMHO. Unbalanced characters or abilities not only mess up the GM's campaign but generally seem to ruin the game for other players whose characters seem unnecessary.

Hpping in as a late contributor.. Mentor and Sean Waters said everything I would've said.

 

I will add, if a character really wanted Desol to be their schtick I'd consider allowing them to buy Affects Real World as a Naked Advantage for up to 60AP of Power (that's 120 points right there) and no other attacks making them dependant on the environment for stuff... Maybe.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Aparently, some have misunderstood my bowling ball example. According to Steve's ruling, if I have ASW on my STR, I can punch or grab someone, but I can't pick up a weapon and attack with it. This is the part that really doesn't make sense, even if it's there for game balance purposes. I can disarm or take away a weapon that you're wielding, but I can't then use it. I can pick up objects, move them around, manipulate them in many ways, and even throw them, but I can't attack with them? I can pick up a rock and throw it away, but I can't throw it at someone. I can grab you and slam you into the ground, but can I slam you into someone else? That was the point of the bowling ball example. I can pick up the bowling ball and drop it - no problem. But what if there is someone who will "receive an attack" from the combination of the bowling ball and gravity? Is that considered an attack?

 

I could pick up a baseball bat and play baseball while desolid with ASWSTR. So it's OK to hit a baseball with it, but I can't swing the bat at a person?

 

Remember that if the weapon is solid, it is still subject to Disarm/Entangle, etc., even if the person is desolid. And attacks from ASW people are still subject to Block, Missile Deflect, etc.

 

And re: the SFX issue, that's really irrelevent. If you rule that one player can do something because of his SFX, but another player can't because of different SFX, you're allowing a mechanical, game advantage to the first player for no points (or a game-mechanical limitation to the second player for no savings).

 

AFAIR, this has never actually been an issue in any of my games, because ASW is so rare and expensive. There was (is) an old Spidey villian called "Will-o-the-Wisp" who seemed to be completely intanglible, but could punch as solidly as anyone else. One method for doing this is to use Damage Reduction, Phisical & Energy, with the SFX of seeming to be Desolid, even though you are actually taking a little damage each time. You'll need Desolid as well (Probably in a Framework), if you want to walk through walls etc.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Aparently, some have misunderstood my bowling ball example. According to Steve's ruling, if I have ASW on my STR, I can punch or grab someone, but I can't pick up a weapon and attack with it. This is the part that really doesn't make sense, even if it's there for game balance purposes. I can disarm or take away a weapon that you're wielding, but I can't then use it. I can pick up objects, move them around, manipulate them in many ways, and even throw them, but I can't attack with them? I can pick up a rock and throw it away, but I can't throw it at someone. I can grab you and slam you into the ground, but can I slam you into someone else? That was the point of the bowling ball example. I can pick up the bowling ball and drop it - no problem. But what if there is someone who will "receive an attack" from the combination of the bowling ball and gravity? Is that considered an attack?

 

I could pick up a baseball bat and play baseball while desolid with ASWSTR. So it's OK to hit a baseball with it, but I can't swing the bat at a person?

 

Remember that if the weapon is solid, it is still subject to Disarm/Entangle, etc., even if the person is desolid. And attacks from ASW people are still subject to Block, Missile Deflect, etc.

 

And re: the SFX issue, that's really irrelevent. If you rule that one player can do something because of his SFX, but another player can't because of different SFX, you're allowing a mechanical, game advantage to the first player for no points (or a game-mechanical limitation to the second player for no savings).

 

AFAIR, this has never actually been an issue in any of my games, because ASW is so rare and expensive. There was (is) an old Spidey villian called "Will-o-the-Wisp" who seemed to be completely intanglible, but could punch as solidly as anyone else. One method for doing this is to use Damage Reduction, Phisical & Energy, with the SFX of seeming to be Desolid, even though you are actually taking a little damage each time. You'll need Desolid as well (Probably in a Framework), if you want to walk through walls etc.

 

(sigh)

 

The point is NOT that all varieties of desolid should be unable to hurt people by using objects as weapons.

 

The point is that the correct way to buy the ability to pick up and use weapons is to buy a floating Affects Solid World Advantage AS WELL as Affects Solid World on your strength.

 

Therefore, if you do not buy the ability to use weapons, you can't. It's up to you to define WHY, but you have not bought the ability, so you can't do it.

 

Perhaps you're a 2nd Ed Poltergeist, who can throw people around but can't use weapons, because that's their nature as a spirit. Or maybe you're "harmless" - immune to harm, but unable to do any in return (sort of like how Hugh the Hand couldn't kill or be killed).

 

 

Growth should usually increase your movement speed. It doesn't. No amount of whining should make the GM throw it in for free.

 

Life Support: Immune to Heat/Cold usually implies a decent energy defense. But you still have to buy THAT too.

 

You get what you pay for. And 20 points (for 10 STR affects solid) is not enough to let you use 90 Active Point blaster gun while desolid.

 

 

No, the bowling ball example does not make sense for most desolid affects real world builds - that is because they should have bought ARW at the floating level. NOT because there's anything wrong with the rules.

 

*If you can pick up a bowling ball and drop it on someone while desolid, then you should take ARW on more than just your STR*

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Aparently, some have misunderstood my bowling ball example. According to Steve's ruling, if I have ASW on my STR, I can punch or grab someone, but I can't pick up a weapon and attack with it. This is the part that really doesn't make sense, even if it's there for game balance purposes. I can disarm or take away a weapon that you're wielding, but I can't then use it. I can pick up objects, move them around, manipulate them in many ways, and even throw them, but I can't attack with them? I can pick up a rock and throw it away, but I can't throw it at someone. I can grab you and slam you into the ground, but can I slam you into someone else? That was the point of the bowling ball example. I can pick up the bowling ball and drop it - no problem. But what if there is someone who will "receive an attack" from the combination of the bowling ball and gravity? Is that considered an attack?

 

I could pick up a baseball bat and play baseball while desolid with ASWSTR. So it's OK to hit a baseball with it, but I can't swing the bat at a person?

 

Remember that if the weapon is solid, it is still subject to Disarm/Entangle, etc., even if the person is desolid. And attacks from ASW people are still subject to Block, Missile Deflect, etc.

 

And re: the SFX issue, that's really irrelevent. If you rule that one player can do something because of his SFX, but another player can't because of different SFX, you're allowing a mechanical, game advantage to the first player for no points (or a game-mechanical limitation to the second player for no savings).

 

AFAIR, this has never actually been an issue in any of my games, because ASW is so rare and expensive. There was (is) an old Spidey villian called "Will-o-the-Wisp" who seemed to be completely intanglible, but could punch as solidly as anyone else. One method for doing this is to use Damage Reduction, Phisical & Energy, with the SFX of seeming to be Desolid, even though you are actually taking a little damage each time. You'll need Desolid as well (Probably in a Framework), if you want to walk through walls etc.

 

Say you had 20 STR ASW, You could pick up a baseball bat alright, and swing it to cause up to 4d6 damage, but no more (unless the extra damage comes from a martial manouvre). If you pick up a knife or sword I'd probably allow you to do up to 4DC of kill attack (1d6 +1).

 

The way I'd justify capping your setrength is that anything harder and the object just slips through your hands.

 

Not rules perfect, but a reasonable fusion of sense and rules that I'd be OK with.

 

One possiblilty is buying the ASW as a series of naked advantages in a MP with:

 

MP POOL: 40 points

 

4u SLOT1: ASW on 20 STR

3u SLOT2: ASW on 4d6 hand attack (up to 8d6 w/STR)

4u SLOT3: ASW on 1d6+1 RKA (anything heavier and the recoil prevents you hitting although you CAN technically fire it -OR- you can fire and hit with heavier guns but the shot won't be likely to hit anything important becasue of innacuracy (this is the dodgiest sfx but you get what you pay for...))

4u SLOT4: ASW on 4DCs of HKA (+1DC per 15 STR)

 

So for 55 points you can have ASW on 20 STR and most things you can do with 20 STR, including most attacks.

 

Not perfectly 'logical' but reasonably balanced (IMPO)

[Utech]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

One possiblilty is buying the ASW as a series of naked advantages in a MP

I think you'd do better buying ASW on a VPP so that you can handle all sorts of situations you may not anticipate with the MP.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Nope. It says you can't use it as a weapon. Nothing about not being able accidently get yourself into trouble.

 

You could try and set off the bomb... not going to work. Now, if you're trying to NOT set it off, you have a problem.

 

 

And if you don't want to be restricted in this way, _pay for the ability to actually use weapons_.

 

 

 

In fact, my suspicion is that the ruling is in line with the rules for Foci; doing it once or twice without paying is okay. Doing it more often, no. No golfbags full of energy blasters and force field belts confiscated from villains, unless you pay the points for it. No carrying a belt of grenades while desolid, unless you pay the points.

 

 

Even if you force the player to buy ASW as a naked advantage, it gets silly.

 

Suppose you pay 120 pts for ASW on 60 AP of powers. That means that if the poison gas behind door A is less than 60 pts, you can open the door. If it's greater than 60 APs, you can't open the door no matter what. If the grenade is 2.5d6K explosion or less, you can pull the pin. If it's 3d6K explosion or greater, you can't pull the pin even if it's the exact same pin in the exact same type of grenade. If pressing the button releases an arrow trap of 2d6 RKA, it's ok. If pressing the exact same button releases the orbital death ray, then you can't muster the several ounces of pressure no matter what. You can light a match almost anywhere, but you can't light the match in a room full of explosives or gas. You can stick a hyperdermic needle in someone's arm if it contains water, but you can't if it contains cyanide. Etc.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Even if you force the player to buy ASW as a naked advantage, it gets silly.

 

Suppose you pay 120 pts for ASW on 60 AP of powers. That means that if the poison gas behind door A is less than 60 pts, you can open the door. If it's greater than 60 APs, you can't open the door no matter what. If the grenade is 2.5d6K explosion or less, you can pull the pin. If it's 3d6K explosion or greater, you can't pull the pin even if it's the exact same pin in the exact same type of grenade. If pressing the button releases an arrow trap of 2d6 RKA, it's ok. If pressing the exact same button releases the orbital death ray, then you can't muster the several ounces of pressure no matter what. You can light a match almost anywhere, but you can't light the match in a room full of explosives or gas. You can stick a hyperdermic needle in someone's arm if it contains water, but you can't if it contains cyanide. Etc.

 

Again, insufficient buys. Also, incorrect implementation.

 

If you wish to be able to use any weapon in the game universe while desolid... that's a rather powerful ability. Buy Affects Solid world to the point you CAN launch the orbital death laser.

 

 

 

Now, if you want to argue that 900 points (or whatever) is too expensive for the ability to go desolid and use an orbital laser, that's another issue.

 

 

Incidently, most of those would fall under 'Occasional Power Tricks' if the character doesn't make a habit of them.

 

Now, if you want the ability to be able to always be able to go desolid and then start setting off explosives you carried in with you or the like... pay for that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Even if you force the player to buy ASW as a naked advantage, it gets silly.

 

Suppose you pay 120 pts for ASW on 60 AP of powers. That means that if the poison gas behind door A is less than 60 pts, you can open the door. If it's greater than 60 APs, you can't open the door no matter what. If the grenade is 2.5d6K explosion or less, you can pull the pin. If it's 3d6K explosion or greater, you can't pull the pin even if it's the exact same pin in the exact same type of grenade. If pressing the button releases an arrow trap of 2d6 RKA, it's ok. If pressing the exact same button releases the orbital death ray, then you can't muster the several ounces of pressure no matter what. You can light a match almost anywhere, but you can't light the match in a room full of explosives or gas. You can stick a hyperdermic needle in someone's arm if it contains water, but you can't if it contains cyanide. Etc.

 

 

I acknowledge the silliness, but think of the alternative:

 

I put down the grenage, go desolid, pick it up, pull the pin and hold the handle, walk up to an opponent and get them at ground zero every time. For 40 points I have an all-or-nothing defence against a wide range of damage. Not good for the game, probably.

 

Now what I'd say is this: buy enough ASW to cover any attacks you've paid points for. Anything you have not paid points for, if it is logical that you could do it, fine, you can. I mean, superheroes rarely go looking for weapons: that is what powers are for.

 

Be aware, however, that if you take the opportunity to regularly 'borrow' one of your team-mates' grenades and pull the above trick, you'll be finding a sharp increase in the number of villains with affects desolid killing attacks, and you'll be coming up with a new character very soon.

 

So that is the way I'd play it, I think: not one extreme, not the other, just getting on and hopefully having a character that is interesting to play but not unbalancing.

 

Or maybe we'd go with Utech's solution and buy the VPP.

 

It CAN be made to work.

[OddHat]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

If you need to pay points for an attack, you need to pay for the advantages.

 

In a standard Champions campaign, where you need to pay points for your weapons, you can't buy a 2d6 RKA PD "gun", go desolid, and use your ASW STR to fire that gun at solid targets. If you want to do that, buy ASW for the gun.

 

In a campaign where you pay no points for weapons, I'd allow ASW STR to be used to manipulate them. It may be "unbalancing" in theory. I ran a few Horror Hero campaigns over the years, and in actual play it seemed balanced enough.

 

I would not charge points if a character wanted to use his ASW Str to press a button or throw an object, so long as he would not normally need to spend points to do so. Of course, there are those on these boards who argue that characters should have to spend points for the ability to throw or drop anything.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

One thing: I'd be slightly surprised if desolid was used much in character builds in heroic games - at least not unless it is pretty heavily limited.

 

Whilst this is a general Hero discussion I think that the majority of relevant builds will be in the superheroic genre, or (possibly) fantasy, for the od spell.

 

In heroic level games thre are probably not many points flying around to buy ASW anyway.

 

So, in all likelihood, the place this will come up is a superhero game, most often. This is the point where I reiterate what I said before and (I think) agree with OddHat's efficient summary (even though I have argued, in times gone by, that throwing (large) objects should be paid for seperately:))

 

If the GM is careless enough to leave loads of orbital lasers lying around you can use when you are desolid that is his lookout.

 

Complete aside: would you allow an object which was not a weapon per se to be bought with 'affects desolid' (probably on its BODY and/or DEF) that would then stop desolid characters passing through them, and effect could be used as weapons against the desolid? I am NOT thinking of bullets - they are designed to do damage and would need AD on the damage cost.

[OddHat]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

One thing: I'd be slightly surprised if desolid was used much in character builds in heroic games - at least not unless it is pretty heavily limited.

 

Whilst this is a general Hero discussion I think that the majority of relevant builds will be in the superheroic genre, or (possibly) fantasy, for the od spell.

 

I agree with this. However, I might allow a Ghost PC or astral projector in a Pulp Hero game, and I have run Horror games with Ghost PCs. So, the issue might come up.

 

 

Complete aside: would you allow an object which was not a weapon per se to be bought with 'affects desolid' (probably on its BODY and/or DEF) that would then stop desolid characters passing through them, and effect could be used as weapons against the desolid? I am NOT thinking of bullets - they are designed to do damage and would need AD on the damage cost.

 

Interesting idea. So Jake Science builds a "Ghost Cage", a large box with ADSO DEF, and then decides to start thwacking gosts with the box instead of trapping them in it.

 

I think I'd allow it once or twice, but ask him to pay points for it if he did it regularly, at least in a Supers game.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Again, insufficient buys. Also, incorrect implementation.

 

If you wish to be able to use any weapon in the game universe while desolid... that's a rather powerful ability. Buy Affects Solid world to the point you CAN launch the orbital death laser.

 

 

 

Now, if you want to argue that 900 points (or whatever) is too expensive for the ability to go desolid and use an orbital laser, that's another issue.

 

 

Incidently, most of those would fall under 'Occasional Power Tricks' if the character doesn't make a habit of them.

 

Now, if you want the ability to be able to always be able to go desolid and then start setting off explosives you carried in with you or the like... pay for that.

 

 

I'm not talking about setting off explosives that you carry with you all the time. I'm talking about simple everyday tasks such as pressing a button, flicking a switch, lighting a match, opening a door, or driving a car. Apparently you can drive a car or plane as normal, but you can't crash it into a building. Even if someone sets up a Force Wall in front of you, the car or plane just mysteriously comes to a complete stop even if it were going at hundreds of miles per hour.

 

There's something called suspension of disbelief in RPGs, and being able to fire a guard's gun normally, but not if the bullets were poison tipped, completely snaps it.

 

What it sounds like you're saying is that you don't think a poltergeist or a mist being is a viable character concept at all. Not if you want them to pay 900 points just on the odd chance they run into an orbital death laser.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

A question for the peanut gallery.

 

Would you consider it abusive for a character to purchase Desolid plus 4 Str TK or 6 Str ASW in your typical 60 pt multipower?

 

What restrictions, if any, would you put on such a combined slot in actual play? Assuming the character doesn't have personal equipment and can only use the environment or an opponent's weapon against them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

A question for the peanut gallery.

 

Would you consider it abusive for a character to purchase Desolid plus 4 Str TK or 6 Str ASW in your typical 60 pt multipower?

 

What restrictions, if any, would you put on such a combined slot in actual play? Assuming the character doesn't have personal equipment and can only use the environment or an opponent's weapon against them.

 

 

Mmmmm....peanuts....

 

1. What sort of game is it?

 

2. Why is it being bought like that?

 

3. Does the player understand how angry I'll be if it turns out he's taking the piss?

 

So long as those questions get satisfactory answers, no problem.

[Lucius]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Mmmmm....peanuts....

 

3. Does the player understand how angry I'll be if it turns out he's taking the piss?

 

.

 

You're players aren't allowed to leave the table to go to the bathroom??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects this is one of those odd British expressions

[OddHat]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

A question for the peanut gallery.

 

Would you consider it abusive for a character to purchase Desolid plus 4 Str TK or 6 Str ASW in your typical 60 pt multipower?

 

Depening on the campaign and character, it might be OK. I've allowed Ghost characters in monster mash or mystic campaigns to do something like this.

 

What restrictions, if any, would you put on such a combined slot in actual play? Assuming the character doesn't have personal equipment and can only use the environment or an opponent's weapon against them.

 

Probably no restrictions that aren't already part of the mechanics, as always depending on the campaign.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I'm not talking about setting off explosives that you carry with you all the time. I'm talking about simple everyday tasks such as pressing a button, flicking a switch, lighting a match, opening a door, or driving a car. Apparently you can drive a car or plane as normal, but you can't crash it into a building. Even if someone sets up a Force Wall in front of you, the car or plane just mysteriously comes to a complete stop even if it were going at hundreds of miles per hour.

 

There's something called suspension of disbelief in RPGs, and being able to fire a guard's gun normally, but not if the bullets were poison tipped, completely snaps it.

 

What it sounds like you're saying is that you don't think a poltergeist or a mist being is a viable character concept at all. Not if you want them to pay 900 points just on the odd chance they run into an orbital death laser.

 

Did you read the bit where I'd consider _occasional_ use to fall under power tricks?

 

Remember, the rules DO allow for you to occasionally overstep the mechanical limits of your purchased powers.

 

 

It's the same suspension of disbelief you have to apply whenever your character doesn't always choose the utterly tactically efficient option.

 

They _can_ do it. But if the player intends to do it more often than occasionally, they need to pay the points for what they intend to do more often than occasionally.

 

 

Now, IMC, you would rarely need more than 60 AP to affect solid to cover most commonly encountered damaging effects, so it would generally be enough [and thus occasional exceptions would fall under fair use of power tricks] - but if you're in a world where weapons tend to be more powerful, pay.

 

 

 

And as for the car... remember the bit where it was _using it as a weapon_ that was the problem? Yeah, the Force Wall is going to end up with you crashing. Besides. 60 AP would cover the STR of the car.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Like Gary, I was not talking about weapons and powers that you've bought yourself. I was talking about objects found in the environment.

 

If I'm an incompetent normal and I've sold my STR down to 0, I can still press the button on the Orbital Death Laser. But If I've paid for Desolid and ASW on my Strength, I can't press this button. This makes no sense to me.

 

If I'm desolid, I can pick up a gun that I happen to find. I gan pull the trigger if it's one of those cigarette lighters that look like a gun, but not if it's a real gun. I can pull the trigger if it's a squirt gun filled with water, but not if it's filled with acid. This makes no sense.

 

Solid characters are allowed to use objects in the environment to make attacks. So should Desolid characters with ASW Strength.

 

Remember objects in the environment have their own drawbacks. It's probably easier to disarm a desolid person, since they can't use their body to block (though they might be able to do a Block maneuver in some way).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Like Sean I think I would change my approach based on whether it is a superheroic game or a heroic one. For heroic games I would pretty much ignore the ruling. I wonder, though, if Str with Affects Solid World should be considered about like Telekinesis. Should you have to buy some form of Fine Manipulation in order to be able to do complex/detailed activities with it?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Like Gary, I was not talking about weapons and powers that you've bought yourself. I was talking about objects found in the environment.

 

If I'm an incompetent normal and I've sold my STR down to 0, I can still press the button on the Orbital Death Laser. But If I've paid for Desolid and ASW on my Strength, I can't press this button. This makes no sense to me.

 

If I'm desolid, I can pick up a gun that I happen to find. I gan pull the trigger if it's one of those cigarette lighters that look like a gun, but not if it's a real gun. I can pull the trigger if it's a squirt gun filled with water, but not if it's filled with acid. This makes no sense.

 

Solid characters are allowed to use objects in the environment to make attacks. So should Desolid characters with ASW Strength.

 

Remember objects in the environment have their own drawbacks. It's probably easier to disarm a desolid person, since they can't use their body to block (though they might be able to do a Block maneuver in some way).

 

I repeat - it makes no sense for _some_ (maybe even most) special effects of desolid. For some SFX's that does make sense.

 

For other SFX's... you should _buy the effect you want_. Again, Growth doesn't throw in free running.

 

And desolid characters CAN use objects in the enviroment to make attacks. The thing is, they can't apply the advantage 'Affects Solid World' to it for free, any more than someone with AP strength can apply THAT to any gun or weapon they pick up.

 

 

If your character should be able to become insubstantial while still being able to pick up weapons and use them, buy the ability to go insubstantial while still being able to pick up weapons and use them.

 

 

Your entire argument is based on nothing. You built your character incorrectly. They do not have the abilities you wanted them to. That is YOUR mistake. It is not absurd that you can't do something you didn't pay the points to be able to do.

 

 

WHY should you be able to apply ASW (unlike every other advantage) to objects you pick up just because you took it on your STR?

[stan da ork]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I think what Phil and Gary are really getting at is this - STR comes with all sorts of "extras" that don't really cost points, including (but not limited to) wielding pretty much anything you can pick up as a weapon, pushing buttons on orbital death rays, triggering nasty traps, etc. The RAW even specifically state that such uses are fine, even in a game where everything costs points (as long as they don't become an everyday occurance). However, for a character that buys Desolid, then buys ASW on his STR (a rather pricy advantage, to say the least), all these freebies just disappear. That seems wrong.

 

Now, the other side has a point as well, since a character who buys all his attacks through Foci can just buy ASW on a little bit of his STR and pull the "set the Focus down, go Desolid, and pick it up again" trick. Which also seems wrong.

 

It sounds to me like a good solution has already by suggested by a couple of different people - if a character possesses attacks they want to use while Desolid, or if they want to pull these sorts of Desolid tricks on a regular basis (like every fight), then the character needs to buy ASW as appropriate, perhaps through a Framework of some sort. However, if it's a once in a while action of opportunity that comes up a few times, then just let the character do it. Just like any Joe on the street can push the button on the orbital death ray, even though he didn't pay points for it, if he happens to be in such a situation; but if said Joe wants to be able to use the orbital death ray whenever he wants, he has to pay for it.