Affects Solid World

[Gary]

If a character has the capability to go Desolid with Affects Solid World on part of his Str or Telekinesis' date=' does he have to purchase a Naked Advantage to be able to shoot or wield any weapon he picks up with it? How about if it's his own weapon that he paid for with his own Character Points?[/quote']

 

Affects Physical World on a character's STR applies only to that STR. It does not allow a character to pick up weapons while Desolidified and use them on solid targets or anything of the sort; it only allows him to use his standard STR as an attack. He could pick solid objects, but he can't wield them as weapons.

 

 

Wow, based on Steve's answer to this and his followup, it appears that a Desolidified person can't go around pulling pins on grenades of guards or the triggers of guns or do anything that could conceivably hurt anyone else in any way indirectly, even if he purchased Affects Solid World on his Str. Not even press a button or flip a switch.

 

I can understand the game balance reasons for this, but does this make sense to anyone?

[Blackberry]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I played in a campaign with a character with Desolid, Always On, and Affects Phyiscal World on 1 point of STR, so that he could do things like walk and open doors.

 

I would rule that it would depend on the "switch" being "flicked". If he grabbed a grenade from a nearby enemy agent, pulled the pin, and dropped it, I'd allow that a few times, just like I'd allow Professor Liberty to pick up the agent's gun and get off a few shots with it.

 

If he bought RKA, Explosion, Focus (grenades), and he wants to use his 1 STR Affects Phyiscal World to say that he's pulling the pin on one of his grenades and dropping it, I'd say no. That's clearly stepping outside the bounds of the game system. He should buy Affects Physical World on his grenades.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Wow, based on Steve's answer to this and his followup, it appears that a Desolidified person can't go around pulling pins on grenades of guards or the triggers of guns or do anything that could conceivably hurt anyone else in any way indirectly, even if he purchased Affects Solid World on his Str. Not even press a button or flip a switch.

 

I can understand the game balance reasons for this, but does this make sense to anyone?

 

I know how much Steve hates to answer questions like this but why not? If I can hit you, why can't I hit a button? What's the difference?

 

Another House Rule to add to my games . . . Ignore this ruling.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I'd allow him to do anything he could have done with that STR, and no further CP expenditure. That includes pulling the pin on someone else's grenade, but not dropping his own Desolid grenade and allowing it to become solid.

 

If he picked up a weapon, I would go with Steve's ruling - the weapon goes desolid with you.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Of course this might lead to some interesting tactics.

 

Situation:

There are 3 doors. 2 are death traps filled with poisonous gas and the third is the door to freedom. The desolid character in the party simply tries and pulls each door open. The ones he can't pull open are the deathtraps...

[TaxiMan]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Or if your character concept has him using STR anywhichway (yes, it's one word where I come from), he has to purchase a reasonable set of Powers with Affects Solid World tacked on.

 

Pretty expensive concept.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I'd allow him to do anything he could have done with that STR, and no further CP expenditure. That includes pulling the pin on someone else's grenade, but not dropping his own Desolid grenade and allowing it to become solid.

 

If he picked up a weapon, I would go with Steve's ruling - the weapon goes desolid with you.

 

That makes the most sense to me, and is consistent from a game-mechanic perspective

[gojira]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Everything is balance.

 

Swing too far one way, and players can't tie up a vanquished foe with a handy rope because "they didn't pay points for it." Swing too far the other and character points and concepts bear no resemblance to how the character behave in game.

 

Really what is needed is agreement between players and GM as to what all these points and powers mean. Sometimes players go too far and try to munchkin unreasonable things from the GM. Sometimes the GM gets a bug up his butt and tries to make players hew too closely to the "gotta pay points for that" line. Really, the idea is for everyone to have fun, and as long as all parties are, who cares?

 

Desolidification with any kind of "affects normal world" is pretty inherently cheesy. I personally probably wouldn't allow it except in extreme circumstances or if it fit the genre very well (Galactic Champions, for example, where many opponents could be expected to have ways of affecting desolidified characters, or maybe Horror Hero, where the character is a ghost). This is sorta a special case where 40 points of desolidification is almost always too powerful for a campaign, and has to be handled carefully by the GM.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Simply say that since the weapon was put into the desolid state by your shifting planes or whatnot........ that it cannot shift back without you doing so. It's not a matter of you "keeping" it desolid, it's a matter of you CHANGING it's very nature, from "solid" to "desolid."

 

Of course, in order to do THIS, you must COMPLETELY go back. However, this leaves the interesting possibility of the character securing something in plain sight by simply going desolid with it in his hand, and solid with it not. If you think the player would abuse it, then simply say it would dissipate after too long in that state without the character to maintain its coherence.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I have Desolid and Affects Physical World on my STR.

 

I go Desolid.

I pick up a bowling ball.

I hold it over your foot.

I drop the bowling ball.

 

What happens?

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I have Desolid and Affects Physical World on my STR.

 

I go Desolid.

I pick up a bowling ball.

I hold it over your foot.

I drop the bowling ball.

 

What happens?

The ball stays desolid long enough for me to reflexively move my foot out of the way?

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Your Head

A Splode

[Manic Typist]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I have Desolid and Affects Physical World on my STR.

 

I go Desolid.

I pick up a bowling ball.

I hold it over your foot.

I drop the bowling ball.

 

What happens?

 

Well, under my theory, then the bowling ball remains solid throughout all of this, and thus is 100% noticeable to all involved.

 

Then, it comes crashing down on the guy's foot, if he doesn't move it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Well, under my theory, then the bowling ball remains solid throughout all of this, and thus is 100% noticeable to all involved.

 

Then, it comes crashing down on the guy's foot, if he doesn't move it.

 

It misses. If necessary, because of the intervention of a 5th dimensional imp.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Wow, based on Steve's answer to this and his followup, it appears that a Desolidified person can't go around pulling pins on grenades of guards or the triggers of guns or do anything that could conceivably hurt anyone else in any way indirectly, even if he purchased Affects Solid World on his Str. Not even press a button or flip a switch.

 

I can understand the game balance reasons for this, but does this make sense to anyone?

 

It makes sense that you could have a character restricted in that way.

 

And if it doesn't make sense for a PARTICULAR character... just front up and actually pay points equal to the power you're getting.

 

As in, Affects Real World on grenades and suchlike.

[Phil]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

One way of working around this is to consider buying 'Affects Solid' on Dexterity and Strength. This allows characters to then do these unbalancing things, but they're going to have to pay through the nose for it.

 

One difficulty with this approach is that dexterity currently covers a multitude of sins. This is another reason I'd like fine motor coordination and gross motor coordination separated out, as it would allow stretching, telekinesis (and Affects Solid) to be properly costed without needing clunky mechanisms like the telekinesis adder for 'Fine' actions.

 

Under such circumstances, i would need a very good reason why the character should be able to purchase partial dexterity on affects solid. Strength is understandable, dex less so. So they can have it, but they have to pay.

 

A cheaper alternative might just be to have a multipower or VPP based on 'Affects Solid' special effects. E.g. 3d6 RKA, variable advantage, limited to damage of weapon you're affecting.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

One way of working around this is to consider buying 'Affects Solid' on Dexterity and Strength. This allows characters to then do these unbalancing things' date=' but they're going to have to pay through the nose for it.[/quote']

 

That creates the interesting answer of "OK, you can drop the bowling ball. What's your OCV with your DEX and skill levels that Affect Solid World?" Suddenly, being able to attack from a Desolid state is a lot more expensive.

 

hmmm...or we could make them buy SPD that Affects Solid World to take actions in the solid world.

 

Your PRE doesn't ASW? Not a very scary ghost!

 

Maybe that's why so many apparitions are hideous - forgot to buy their COM ASW!

 

This is likely too confusing to implement (as well as effectively shutting down any ability to affect the solid world), but amusing to think about.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

It makes sense that you could have a character restricted in that way.

 

And if it doesn't make sense for a PARTICULAR character... just front up and actually pay points equal to the power you're getting.

 

As in, Affects Real World on grenades and suchlike.

 

 

So the person with ARW could never actually open an unlocked door with poison gas inside or press the button of the doomsday device in your opinion?

 

Your interpretation would make disarming a bomb real easy at least. If the blue wire is the one you need to pull, you could literally never pull the red or yellow one.

[Gary]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

That creates the interesting answer of "OK, you can drop the bowling ball. What's your OCV with your DEX and skill levels that Affect Solid World?" Suddenly, being able to attack from a Desolid state is a lot more expensive.

 

hmmm...or we could make them buy SPD that Affects Solid World to take actions in the solid world.

 

Your PRE doesn't ASW? Not a very scary ghost!

 

Maybe that's why so many apparitions are hideous - forgot to buy their COM ASW!

 

This is likely too confusing to implement (as well as effectively shutting down any ability to affect the solid world), but amusing to think about.

 

 

You're allowed to make PRE attacks while Desolid without paying the +2 advantage according to the FAQ. However, the GM is allowed to remove a few dice if the targets know you're intangible and can't hurt them.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

It misses. If necessary' date=' because of the intervention of a 5th dimensional imp.[/quote']

 

Perhaps it floats gently to the ground before turning solid.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Isn't anyone going to ask "what's the SFX of your Desolid"? That might make it easier to determine what happens to the bowling ball, and also explain why you have ASW that does such weird stuff.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

So the person with ARW could never actually open an unlocked door with poison gas inside or press the button of the doomsday device in your opinion?

 

Your interpretation would make disarming a bomb real easy at least. If the blue wire is the one you need to pull, you could literally never pull the red or yellow one.

 

Nope. It says you can't use it as a weapon. Nothing about not being able accidently get yourself into trouble.

 

You could try and set off the bomb... not going to work. Now, if you're trying to NOT set it off, you have a problem.

 

 

And if you don't want to be restricted in this way, _pay for the ability to actually use weapons_.

 

 

 

In fact, my suspicion is that the ruling is in line with the rules for Foci; doing it once or twice without paying is okay. Doing it more often, no. No golfbags full of energy blasters and force field belts confiscated from villains, unless you pay the points for it. No carrying a belt of grenades while desolid, unless you pay the points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

Steve's answer makes perfect sense from a balance POV. Imagine this:

 

Desolid Gun Bunny puts her gun on the floor, goes desolid, picks up her gun with her 'affects solid world' strength (10 STR) and fires the gun (a 60 AP power). She can still attack but is pretty much immune to return fire. Perfectly logical. Horribly abusive.

 

So, how do you get round it? Easy enough: you pay for what you want. Buy the 'Affects Solid World' as a naked advantage that you can apply to strength or whatever attack you want to use. You may not be able to use attacks at full power, but that is because you are a skinflint, not because of a logical disconnect in the system.

 

As to the bowling ball thing, it will depend on sfx to an extent. Assuming it is some sort of 'ghost form' then you pick up the ball while desolid, drop it, and it does straight through your foot. You are NOT making the ball desolid, so it can't have an effect on you unless that is directly connected with your touching it: if you are holding on and it is pulled up by TK, you will go up too unless you let go, but it can not be used to whack you: if a mind controller told you to smack yourself with the ball, it would not hurt: you are desolid and it is not. Similarly if you grab a villain the villain can't turn round and hit you - you are still desolid to them even if they are not 'desolid' to you.

 

If the sfx you have chosen and the build you have created do not match up - if there are 'logical inconsistencies' it may be because you have not built the concept you were after, you've built a bit of it and hope the rest will follow

[Utech]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

As a GM I would have to take a long, hard look at the character and have a long, deep conversation with the player before I would ever allow a build that would even approach this sort of problem.

 

This seems to be an obvious attempt to "win" the game without playing it. Something I have no interest in -- no matter how much logic goes into supporting it.

[Mentor]

Re: Affects Solid World

 

I am reminded of the movie Ghost, in which Patrick Swayzie's character could affect the physical world but only within certain limitations and only when focused or emotionally charged. Thus, given that Desolidification is not a real world ability, it seems illogical to determine the way its physics must work according to normal science. In the whole context of fictional characters with imaginary powers, construction SFX time seems a little late in the game to decide that real world physics be inflexibly and perfectly followed.

 

I also think there is a fundamental game philosophy difference at work here. Some players seem to want to be able design characters that the GM is helpless to keep from unbalancing their campaigns so long as the player can point to the construction being legal. That simply is not a wise course for any GM to permit, IMHO. Unbalanced characters or abilities not only mess up the GM's campaign but generally seem to ruin the game for other players whose characters seem unnecessary.