More Granular Extra Time?

[Hierax]

More Granular Extra Time?

 

One thing that I miss from xD&D are "Weapon Speed" and "Spell Casting Time" to make different attacks feel different by altering the Initiative.

 

The HERO System doesn't give many options for attacks that take longer:

• Extra Time - Delayed Phase (acting at 1/2 DEX),

• Extra Time - Extra Segment (acting at the End of the next Segment),

• Extra Time - Extra Phase (acting in the character's next Phase), or

• Anti-Lightning Reflexes (Molasses Reflexes?) but it would be a weird subtractor

Delayed Phase is a great option but with it already being a -1/4 Limitation there isn't much room to make lesser and greater versions for granularity within the same phase. A quick house rule would allow Extra Segment to also have Delayed Phase to be added to it (like it can with Extra Phase).

 

What other ways could one simulate this sort of thing and increase the options for a variety of slower attacks?

 

Thanks!

[prestidigitator]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Anti-Lightning Reflexes (Molasses Reflexes?) but it would be a weird subtractor

Ooh. I like that idea. The character could do most things at their normal Dex if they chose, but would have to delay the Half Phase for their attack until the reduced Dex. Where important I would simply consider it a, "Disadvantage," on the weapon (subtracting from Real Points but of course never reducing them below 1; the Negative Lightning Reflexes would have to be of the most specific variety; or perhaps even more specific--half the value, perhaps?). Making it a Side Effect just doesn't have the required granularity IMO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

My first thought was to simply include Lightning Reflexes as part of "quicker" weapons. Then I thought about a normal punch, which tends to be the fastest of them all. I just don't see how holding a weapon would make you faster.

 

So what about making it part of the Real Weapon Limitation. Or more accurately, a result of having both the Real Weapon and STR Min. If a weapon has both of these, the character using it has an initiative penalty (represented by a reduction in DEX, only to determing when in a segment he acts) equal to the STR Min/3 or something.

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Yeah, the unarmed attacks are why I didn't go with Lightning Reflexes for the Faster weapons.

 

I also thought of a DEX Min, something like a STR Min but not having enough would give you a DEX Penalty to Initiative.

 

The Anti-Lightning Reflexes option offers the most granular options and the most pay-for-what-you-get (which are why I like it) but Hero System and Hero Designer aren't big fans of subtractors (similar to how they look at negative skill levels for OCV penalties) which is my reservation.

 

I wanted to explore the Extra Time Limitation to see if there was any more hope to be had there than it first appears. The appeal is that this is likely the only way that Steve would officially build such things (given the way that he didn't like negative skill levels for OCV penalties).

[Dust Raven]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

I wouldn't use anything like this in a game where characters pay for equipment, so for me, there is really nothing to pay for. It's just another aspect of a weapon one can buy with money. So there really isn't a need to put a cost, or cost reduction on it. The only thing that matters is the mechanic for determining what the value is. I'm not sure if you're intending to use it differently.

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

I agree, all the Characters will need to see is the DEX penalty for the weapon (or spell) on their character sheet not the point cost.

 

It'll only matter for character points if someone builds an independent magic item or somesuch.

 

Even though characters don't pay points for equipment, I like to work everything up with full point write-ups so I can balance them vs. each other. I want to build them as consistently as possible with the Hero System rules.

 

It seems "pointless" to use the HERO System and not have a point value for things. FWIW, I moved from xD&D because I wanted to get away from the just make stuff up write-ups and get some sort of point-based balance included, YMMV but hand-waving seems out of place in a point system.

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

How about this progression:

• (+0) No Modifier - act on DEX

• (-1/4) Extra Time - Delayed Phase (acting at 1/2 DEX)

• (-1/2) Extra Time - Extra Segment (House Rule: act on DEX instead of at the End of the next Segment)

• (-3/4) Extra Time - Extra Segment and Delayed Phase (House Rule: act on 1/2 DEX instead of at the End of the next Segment)

• (-3/4) Extra Time - Extra Phase (act on DEX in next Phase) [but this should cost more than the previous one as it is way more limiting!]

• (-1) Extra Time - Extra Phase and Delayed Phase (act on 1/2 DEX in the next Phase)

Or would it be better to just go with the Anti-Lightning Reflexes subtractor? It would probably work well for expensive powers but might be too good for cheaper powers...

[Zed-F]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

I don't really like it. Extra time can be a cheese limitation already, and this just makes it cheesier. Remember that most of the time, powers that are given extra time lims are intended to be used out of combat.

 

I think you'd be better off working on the anti-lightning reflexes idea for certain weapons or spells... and making it a -0 limitation. Don't give a cost break, it's just a house rule in this setting. Just make sure that the initiative penalty is not so large as to discourage people from taking them.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

I also thought of a DEX Min' date=' something like a STR Min but not having enough would give you a DEX Penalty to Initiative.[/quote']

I really like this idea! Even though it makes things a little more complicated, it does add more realism for those who want it. Something simple like a club probably has no DEX min, but some weapons require more finesse, like a rapier. You might consider the DEX min as always subtracting from your DEX for purposes of when you go. Hmmm... nevermind.

 

The issue I see is you could have a 10 DEX character wielding a simple weapon (for which he meets or exceeds the DEX min) still acting after a DEX 15 character with a more difficult weapon (DEX min of, say 18). If the second character acts on DEX 12 (15-3 point by which he misses the DEX min), he still goes first). In other words, there isn't much penalty at all for missing the DEX min.

 

I'd suggest making the DEX min work more like the STR min: -1 OCV for each 5 points of DEX (or fraction thereof) that you fall below the DEX min. In the above scenario, the DEX 15 guy still goes first (he is quicker, after all), but his OCV is at -1.

 

Hmmm... there's a lot of other options you could do with this. Requires more thinking on the subject. The possibilities are unlimitless...

 

There's also a possibility I've been advocating for some time now. Allow other values of limitations besides just -1/4, -1/2, -3/4, etc. What's so sacred about quarters? Why not use dimes or nickels? That way you can have -1/20, -1/10, -3/20, -1/5, -1/4, -3/10, -7/20, -2/5, etc. (Obviously, you don't have to use *all* of these values.)

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Any other thoughts on this?

[Robyn]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Delayed Phase is a great option but with it already being a -1/4 Limitation there isn't much room to make lesser and greater versions for granularity within the same phase.

 

If the final cost for the power wouldn't change, it doesn't matter anyway. If the final cost for the power would change, consider adjusting the final cost by a few straight points, less than the difference between the existing modifier and the next one over in that direction.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

What about assigning each weapon type a "Speed Penalty" based on its weight, length, balance, etc.? The Speed Penalty would have to be "paid for" by reducing the wielder's DEX (for purposes of Combat Order only) or OCV, or a combination of both.

 

For example, say a DEX 18, OCV 8 character wields a Great Sword with a Speed Penalty of 4. The character could use the sword in any of the following ways...

 

at DEX 18, OCV 4

at DEX 17, OCV 5

at DEX 16, OCV 6

at DEX 15, OCV 7

at DEX 14, OCV 8

 

The only "weapons" with a Speed Penalty of 0 would, of course, be bare hands.

[Robyn]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

The only "weapons" with a Speed Penalty of 0 would' date=' of course, be bare hands. [/quote']

 

Thus encouraging the Martial Arts Speedsters even more

[Manic Typist]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

I think you should just go with the Anti-Lighting reflexes.

 

For instance, a machine gun might be "Cumbersome: -3 DEX (only for determining initivative), -1/4."

 

Zed- I disagree. If they suffer a disadvantage for it, then 99% of the time they should get a break on the points they pay for it. Otherwise, you are charging full price for something that isn't WORTH full price.

 

Phil- I would argue your example is backwards. The rapier, which is light and graceful, should have less of a DEX negative on it than the club, which is heavier and more cumbersome.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Phil- I would argue your example is backwards. The rapier' date=' which is light and graceful, should have less of a DEX negative on it than the club, which is heavier and more cumbersome.[/quote']

That's why I retracted it and suggested an OCV penalty instead for being below the DEX min. A rapier requires more grace to wield than a club. Some clumsy lummox trying to wield a rapier is not going to be able to do so very effectively - he should stick to easier weapons like clubs. OTOH, should this be more of a penalty than just the lower CV he'll have for having a lower DEX in the first place?

[CUnknown]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

In my campaign, I have implemented the initiative penalty for heavy weapons (as well as initiative bonuses for quick weapons), and it seems to work well.

 

I also use this to modify DEX checks when people attempt to use a held action, for example: An 8 DEX ogre is standing, holding his action, weilding a -4 initiative great club. An 18 DEX halfling runs up on him, weilding a +2 initiative dagger. They both make DEX checks as the ogre attempts to use his held action to smash the halfling, but the ogre has to roll under a 7 while the halfling gets to roll under a 15. The halfling will surely get his stab off first, although he might still get smashed afterwards..

[prestidigitator]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

That's why I retracted it and suggested an OCV penalty instead for being below the DEX min. A rapier requires more grace to wield than a club. Some clumsy lummox trying to wield a rapier is not going to be able to do so very effectively - he should stick to easier weapons like clubs. OTOH' date=' should this be more of a penalty than just the lower CV he'll have for having a lower DEX in the first place?[/quote']

Nah. Trust me. I'm a fencer. A rapier is no more difficult to wield than a club. More difficult to parry, sure, but that should actually involve some kind of OCV or Dex bonus for the wielder, not the other way around. Of course, the rapier may very well do less damage than the big club unless it happens to hit something vital (not extremely likely in a chaotic combat)....

[prestidigitator]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

In my campaign, I have implemented the initiative penalty for heavy weapons (as well as initiative bonuses for quick weapons), and it seems to work well.

 

I also use this to modify DEX checks when people attempt to use a held action, for example: An 8 DEX ogre is standing, holding his action, weilding a -4 initiative great club. An 18 DEX halfling runs up on him, weilding a +2 initiative dagger. They both make DEX checks as the ogre attempts to use his held action to smash the halfling, but the ogre has to roll under a 7 while the halfling gets to roll under a 15. The halfling will surely get his stab off first, although he might still get smashed afterwards..

That's a good idea too. I Lightning Reflexes is used for such contests, so basing the penalty on that Talent continues to make perfect sense....

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

At this point, I'm thinking of Reversed Lightning Reflexes for Weapon Speeds and Extra Time for Casting Spells.

 

That should still give a bit of a Sword & Sorcery feel by having the spells increase in time more and give more degrees of differentiation for weapons.

 

Thanks for all the ideas and keep 'em coming....

[Hierax]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Here's an idea for combining Extra Time - Delayed Phase with the essence of Anti-Lightning Reflexes:

• Delayed Phase (-¼): use -1 to Initiative per xD&D/HM Casting Segment/Weapon Speed (or use -1 Initiative per 10 Active Points).

This is Instead of ½ DEX for Initiative (-5 for normal 10 DEX) (which is essentially the same as a -¼ Minor Side Effect of -5 DEX for Initiative [15 Active Points for the Lightning Reflexes bought the non-Talent long way]).

 

The great thing about this is that if all spells operate on a Delayed Phase then this allows different spell levels to resolve at different resolution times even within the same Phase/Segment!

 

How about that?

 

P.S. this goes along with my Alternate Initiative House Rule:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1057502&postcount=7

[prestidigitator]

Re: More Granular Extra Time?

 

Here's an idea for combining Extra Time - Delayed Phase with the essence of Anti-Lightning Reflexes:

[*]Delayed Phase (-¼): ...use -1 Initiative per 10 Active Points

Hmm. Yeah, not bad. This can be used as a Limitation, and/or you could buy specialized Lightning Reflexes in the negative sense as a rebate to Real Cost. Gives a lot of potential for fine-tuning.

 

Now if we can figure out how to give durations a higher resolution for long-term effects in a way that is consistent and makes sense in terms of cost, I think we'll be set.