Absorbtion

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Or the GM can have a spine and respond to the 4th Ed example by saying, "No, if you want a character that heals rapidly, buy more REC and some Regeneration, you twink."

 

Gah, that sounds a lot more confrontational than I meant it. Just got done with a problem customer.

 

The bottom line, however, is that having any ability to enhance Stun or End becomes extremely powerful if the recovered points don't fade and are unlimited in magnitude.

 

How often would you expect to see a character with STUN or END Aid who uses it only, or even primarily, when they aren't already down STUN or END? All the fast healing "twink" has done is remove the need for an attack action to recover a trickle of STUN and END.

 

5th ED removes the problem by setting the very simple restriction that you can only Heal (adjust without fade rate) every 24 hours. If you want more, buy the Heal power down the time chart. Now, a power which allows for more rapid healing using adjustment powers becomes practical, but (appropriately) expensive.

 

hmmm...regeneration is what, 8 points per 2 character points (+1 advantages and -1 1/2 in limitations) isn't it? Make that 10 points per die by adding "STUN and END at the same time" and we get +2 STUN and +4 END at the end of every PS 12 for 10 points. That seems a bit steep compared to the cost of REC, but it does mean your STUN trickles back no matter how far you are down the time chart.

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

hmmm...regeneration is what, 8 points per 2 character points (+1 advantages and -1 1/2 in limitations) isn't it? Make that 10 points per die by adding "STUN and END at the same time" and we get +2 STUN and +4 END at the end of every PS 12 for 10 points. That seems a bit steep compared to the cost of REC, but it does mean your STUN trickles back no matter how far you are down the time chart.

 

Really, imo it should look something like this:

30 Modified Regeneration: Healing Standard Healing 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2)

 

The extra-time regeneration version is giving you continuous and decreased re-use duration for free. The above version restores 0-2 Body and 1-6 Stun per turn, but is far more expensive.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Wait...does Regeneration built with Healing heal 1 BODY per level every Turn, the way old Regeneration did, or is it limited to once every 24 hours like the new nerfed Healing Power?

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Wait...does Regeneration built with Healing heal 1 BODY per level every Turn' date=' the way old Regeneration did, or is it limited to once every 24 hours like the new nerfed Healing Power?[/quote']

 

It heals one body every turn, but it's getting Continuous and Decreased re-use duration for free as part of the Extra Time (regeneration only) limitation.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

It heals one body every turn' date=' but it's getting Continuous and Decreased re-use duration for free as part of the Extra Time (regeneration only) limitation.[/quote']

 

OK, good. That's what I thought, but the direction of this conversation scared me for a moment.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Absorbtion

 

OK' date=' good. That's what I thought, but the direction of this conversation scared me for a moment.[/quote']

The truth is, though, that it shouldn't get those advantages for free. The build creates a completely illogical and unnecessary inconsistency that makes Regeneration magically three times more cost effective than any other form of Healing.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

The truth is' date=' though, that it [i']shouldn't[/i] get those advantages for free. The build creates a completely illogical and unnecessary inconsistency that makes Regeneration magically three times more cost effective than any other form of Healing.

 

4th Ed Regeneration was every turn default, it wasn't "unbalanced" then. Now it is?

 

Only because the ability to heal was completely nerfed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Absorbtion

 

4th Ed Regeneration was every turn default, it wasn't "unbalanced" then. Now it is?

 

Only because the ability to heal was completely nerfed.

Who says it wasn't unbalanced then? It all depends on the campaign you are running, I suppose. For most heroic games I'd say it was dramatically undercosted.

 

But the point is more that it is very inconsistent with the cost and build of other Healing. Make Healing Cumulative by default, or make Healing non-Cumulative by default and provide Advantages that are applied consistently whether the build is, "Regeneration," or not.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Absoption weirdness also can lead to the "Albino Superman" concept.

 

Absorb Energy, Incredibly Long Fade, into All Physical Characteristics (+2); Sunlight Only (-1)

Susceptibility: Sunlight, 1d6 per Day

 

A Susceptibility doesn't start doing BODY until the character is unconscious, so that would be one very powerful, yet comatose, hero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

It heals one body every turn' date=' but it's getting Continuous and Decreased re-use duration for free as part of the Extra Time (regeneration only) limitation.[/quote']

 

Yes: just one of the things that twists my guts into...well...they are already coils, so I suppose, into straights.

 

Just a thought, and way off topic, but:

 

1d6 Healing 0 end +1/2, persistent +1/2, continuous +1, any reduced characteristic or power +2, improved reitereation rate (per turn) +1.5

 

Cost is 65 points. Lot more than regeneration,but then it does a lot more: it improves END and STUN recovery and also boosts up anything hit with a drain or supress. Can't remember if healing is a special power but if not you can probably framework it and make it a real bargain. Cool, huh?

 

Anyway you should probably be adding in 'self only and 'always on' which makes it 32 points. Personally I'd be inclinied to leave the 'self only' but out so your touch can heal teammates too, for 43 points it sounds like a goer.

 

Unfortunately, because of the nature of the build mechanics adding the 'can heal limbs' adder makes it much more expensive (97 points, basic, 65 always on and 48 always on and self only). Still it is an astonishingly useful bit of kit you'll be using all the time and will make you everyone's best friend. For similar reasons you really would not want to make this a resurrection power.

 

Moreover it is built using standard limitations not custom ones that are really substantial advantages that got snuck by an obviously very drunk GM.

 

Not me.

 

Honest.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

One more twist: that build I gave above, you can add area effect (hex) selective, which enables you to heal as many people as can touch you simultaneously (including yourself) whilst denying that healing to enemies.

 

The basic 1d6 healing version, with always on, will cost 48 points. That has GOT to be worth it. Better yet, AoE radius is only 51 points and will cover a 6" radius (12m all around) so teammates just need to be close by , not in actual comtact.

 

Baby!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Really, imo it should look something like this:

 

30 Modified Regeneration: Healing Standard Healing 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2)

 

The extra-time regeneration version is giving you continuous and decreased re-use duration for free. The above version restores 0-2 Body and 1-6 Stun per turn, but is far more expensive.

 

One thing that bugged me about the decreased reuse duration structure was that it was inconsistent with Regeneration. To me, Decreased Reuse (1 turn) was already implicitly costed out at +1 in the Regeneration power.

 

Regeneration (IIRC) is costed out as

 

1d6 Heal BOD, Standard Effect (+0), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Extra Time 1 Turn (-1 ?), Self Only (-1/2) making it an 8 point power. However, at Standard Effect, that should restore 3 character points of BOD, not 2, in each turn.

 

So we really had 2/3d6 Heal BOD, Standard Effect (+0), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Reuse Duration/No Cap (+1); Extra Time 1 Turn (-1 ?), Self Only (-1/2), so 8 points for standard effect of 2 CP per turn.

 

Some issues: Still no Continuous, and I seem to recall 1 Turn is a -1 1/4 limitation, not a -1 limitation. That Decreased Reuse could be every two rturns, since Standard Effect will only max out after two uses.

 

Looking at your version, however, I think you've overpriced, or underpowered, it. That version should get a roll every phase, since it lacks Extra Time. As long as I can roll at least 1 6 in the turn, I'll recover 6 STUN and 2 BOD. Otherwise, I recover somewhat less STUN and 1 BOD. I'm still capped at 6 STUN and 2 BOD per turn, however.

 

If you add the limitation "Extra Time, 1 turn (at -1 for consistency), you get an 18 point cost. At standard effect, that will always be one BOD per turn. Again, we could set the reuse rate at 2 turns. Assuming I only want to regenerate BOD, we could cost this out as:

 

12 Modified Regeneration: Healing BOD 2/3d6, Standard Effect (+0) Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (30 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), acts once per turn (-1)

 

Still have the potential for making that reuse duration 2 turns, and as noted above, I think I'm underpricing Extra Time 1 turn. I wouldn't give Always On, as I don't see it being very limiting, but if we did, we'd be back to 4e's 10 points per 1 BOD regeneration.

 

The costing issue is the ugly one to me. 30 points to regain 1 BOD and 3 STUN per turn seems pretty pricy in a typical Supers game, where risk of death is usually pretty low. In other genres, however, the ability to regain 1 BOD per turn would be hugely advantageous, as those small wounds would heal between encounters instead of between adventures.

 

One final thought - why isn't regeneration listed as a talent instead of a sample power?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Not sure you get extra time as the healing power, by default, will only work (up to pool size) on any one target once per DAY, so the extra time is built into the power already, which is why you can not claim a limtiation.

 

The advantage of OddHats build (and the one I present above) is that it can and probably will have other advantages added and does not have to have 'self only' which regeneration must by default.

 

Also if you make it Body healing rather than standard healing it recovers 1-6 cps of BODY (i.e. 0-3 points of BODY, or 1.75 per turn on average). Just saying.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Not sure you get extra time as the healing power, by default, will only work (up to pool size) on any one target once per DAY, so the extra time is built into the power already, which is why you can not claim a limtiation.

 

The advantage of OddHats build (and the one I present above) is that it can and probably will have other advantages added and does not have to have 'self only' which regeneration must by default.

 

Also if you make it Body healing rather than standard healing it recovers 1-6 cps of BODY (i.e. 0-3 points of BODY, or 1.75 per turn on average). Just saying.

 

Even with the cap, I can roll every phase if I so desire. Assuming a 4 SPD, I should roll at least 1 "4" (I'll roll 3 or less on all dice only 1 turn in 16 on average). I'll get at least one 6 just under half of all turns.

 

If I can only roll once per turn (the extra time limitation), I'll be under 4 half the time, and only get a six one time in 6.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

No, what happens is the pool 'resets' every turn: you can still roll every phase, but you'll almost certainly be filling the pool up before the end of the turn: it does not make you only roll PS12, which is what extra time would do.

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Looking at your version, however, I think you've overpriced, or underpowered, it. That version should get a roll every phase, since it lacks Extra Time.

 

Healing can, at best, be used once per turn on any one target (baring optional rules). You get one roll per turn, and extra time or the lack of it doesn't help. The power above is how Regeneration looks with no hand waves. If it's overpriced compared to its utility, it's because of the choice to merge regeneration with healing and then nerf healing in 5th.

 

Also, this is the official build for Regeneration in 5th:

7 Regeneration: Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

7 points for one body per turn.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Who says it wasn't unbalanced then?

 

I do.

 

It all depends on the campaign you are running, I suppose. For most heroic games I'd say it was dramatically undercosted.

 

Not really.

 

But the point is more that it is very inconsistent with the cost and build of other Healing. Make Healing Cumulative by default, or make Healing non-Cumulative by default and provide Advantages that are applied consistently whether the build is, "Regeneration," or not.

 

They nerfed the power for healing in 5th. I see no need to nerf Regeneration along with it, just because it was one of those powers that had to get rolled into something else.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Healing can' date=' at best, be used once per turn on any one target (baring optional rules). You get one roll per turn, and extra time or the lack of it doesn't help.[/quote']

 

Please cite a page reference (not that I have my books with me). My recollection is that you can Heal as many times as you like, but the effect of each subsequent roll is limited to [what you roll this time] minus [previous best roll], so if you don't beat the highest previous roll, you get no previous effect. The "previous best roll" resets to zero, by default, every 24 hours.

 

Under this model, and assuming your Regen Healing is not limited to one roll per turn (ie extra time), or made standard effect, you would be entitled to roll every phase, and apply the increase over the previous high roll as additional healing.

 

I think there is an example in the book, but I don't have books with me anyway. As my own example, if you had "normal" 4d6 BOD Heal, and your teammate has taken 7 BOD, you can use your Healing on him. Let's say you roll an 8 on 4d6. He heals 4 BOD.

 

You can attempt to Heal him again. This time, you roll a 12. That would normally heal 6 BOD, so he Heals the added 2 BOD.

 

If you roll 14+, he will get the full 7 BOD back. Let's assume you eventually get the 7 BOD.

 

Then your teammate goes out and gets smacked again, losing another 4 BOD. To heal ANYTHING on further rolls, you need to beat the 14 CP already healed today. To fully restore that extra 4 BOD loss, you'll need to roll a 22 on 4d6, which may take some time.

 

IIRC, there was a suggestion in one of the books to simply "allow" a maximum roll if you use some increment of time, rather than bogging the game down with 100 re-rolls.

 

The power above is how Regeneration looks with no hand waves. If it's overpriced compared to its utility, it's because of the choice to merge regeneration with healing and then nerf healing in 5th.

 

Also, this is the official build for Regeneration in 5th:

 

7 points for one body per turn.

 

Or 73 for 10 BOD (the 7 is rounded), hence my question of "why not just make it a talent?" Of course, that would be 10d6, which should be 30 CP of Standard Effect = 15 BOD, not 10. hence my perception of a "hidden" +1 advantage.

 

Ignoring actual in-game utility, I think regen is correctly priced only if one accepts that it does not require Continuous, only Persistent, to keep going with no further actions AND if we accept the price of "never hits a ceiling" should be +1. Given the official rule for "resets per turn" is +1 1/2, it's pretty tough to support the +1 inherent in Regeneration.

 

Using Healing for Stun or END, it seems like it's very overpriced, since that 1d6 will recover, at most, 6 STUN (or 12 END) in a day, for 10 points. For the same 10, a 5 SPD character I can recover 30 STUN and 30 END in a turn if he uses all his actions to recover. But that's hardly the only example of building similar effects different ways for very different costs or results - try building an Ego Blast out of EB (and no BOECV shortcuts either, you cheapskate/munchkin )

 

As to whether it's overpriced or underpriced overall, that's going to depend on the game. If the game is such that characters rarely, if ever, take BOD damage, even 7 points is probably excessive. If the characters are in several combats a (game) day, and those combats normally result in BOD damage, 7 point Regen is vastly underpriced. But that's the same for most abilities (the value of Mental Defense in a Psi Cops game is probably much higher than in Pirate Hero).

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Please cite a page reference (not that I have my books with me). My recollection is that you can Heal as many times as you like' date=' but the effect of each subsequent roll is limited to [what you roll this time'] minus [previous best roll], so if you don't beat the highest previous roll, you get no previous effect. The "previous best roll" resets to zero, by default, every 24 hours.

 

Your recollection in this case is correct.

 

As to whether it's overpriced or underpriced overall, that's going to depend on the game.

 

That statement can be accurately made about virtually any power, effect, skill or characteristic in Hero.

 

As to the "munchin" comment, adding a smiley does not make it less of an insult.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

That statement can be accurately made about virtually any power' date=' effect, skill or characteristic in Hero.[/quote']

 

Absolutely - hence my comment on Mental Defense. I suspect you could take just about any ability and come up with a game or genre where that ability would be useless, and one where it may as well be mandatory, without too much effort. Abilities have as much or as little value as the GM structures the game to afford them.

 

As to the "munchkin" comment' date=' adding a smiley does not make it less of an insult.[/quote']

 

I assume you're referring to this:

 

But that's hardly the only example of building similar effects different ways for very different costs or results - try building an Ego Blast out of EB (and no BOECV shortcuts either, you cheapskate/munchkin )

 

I don't think anyone would build an Ego Blast as an Energy Blast, AVLD (+1 1/2), range = line of sight (+1/2), Invisible to two senses (+3/4) attacks based on ego instead of DEX (custom advantage - value uncertain) and pay 20+ points per d6, rather than pay 10 points per d6 of Ego Blast. I also don't think anyone would suggest it would be appropriate to do so.

 

Hence, my reference to a person buying the much "cheaper and more efficient" Energy Blast, Based on ECV (+1), Invisible to two senses (+3/4) for 13.75 points per die (still considerably more expensive than buying the Ego Blast in the first place) needs a .

 

Is Ego Blast a bargain at 10 points per die when it "ought" to cost 13.75, or 20+, to build it with its component parts? I doubt it. And exercises like this commonly show where building an ability strictly "by the books" is no guarantee of getting an appropriate cost for that ability.

 

If you took offense, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent, nor was it my intent to characterize you as a Munchkin.

 

I agree with what I believe is your salient point - if we're going to require "regeneration" be built out of "Healing", it should have all the component parts, not a bunch of handwaves.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Your recollection in this case is correct.

 

I suspect that's one in a series of one - but it's nice to be correct once in a while anyway.

 

Thanks for the confirmation!

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I don't think anyone would build an Ego Blast as an Energy Blast, AVLD (+1 1/2), range = line of sight (+1/2), Invisible to two senses (+3/4) attacks based on ego instead of DEX (custom advantage - value uncertain) and pay 20+ points per d6, rather than pay 10 points per d6 of Ego Blast. I also don't think anyone would suggest it would be appropriate to do so.

 

Hence, my reference to a person buying the much "cheaper and more efficient" Energy Blast, Based on ECV (+1), Invisible to two senses (+3/4) for 13.75 points per die (still considerably more expensive than buying the Ego Blast in the first place) needs a .

 

Is Ego Blast a bargain at 10 points per die when it "ought" to cost 13.75, or 20+, to build it with its component parts? I doubt it. And exercises like this commonly show where building an ability strictly "by the books" is no guarantee of getting an appropriate cost for that ability.

 

...

 

I agree with what I believe is your salient point - if we're going to require "regeneration" be built out of "Healing", it should have all the component parts, not a bunch of handwaves.

 

Which is a very good argument in support of my contention that it's a serious mistake to try to cram things down into the smallest number of Powers humanly possible, and then build everything from that dozen or so Powers and a host of Modifiers.

 

And there's at least some talk of doing exactly that, so that at the end of the day there's Attack, Defense, Move, and a few specialty powers.