Absorbtion

[Sean Waters]

I was looking at this power and can see only two justifications for the cost:

 

1. it may let you exceed campaign limits.

 

2. it is more of a bargain if you buy increased maximum effect.

 

3. you have that 'multiple simultaneous' advantage...

 

 

Most adjustment powers have the redeeming feature that they can effect several people at once (with several applications, obviously) but absorbtion is self only.

 

Now as for 1....if it is the only way you can exceed campaign maxima then, it may well be worth it, but I know a lot of games either don't bother with APs or have limits that include boosts.

 

As for 2, well, it has a built in limit: the higher the pool, the more hits you have to take to fill it up, and most heroes can only take 3-5 hits and remain conscious. So not that useful.

 

As for 3...well that's probably the deal maker, isn't it: +4d6 to STR DEX CON BODY PD ED SPD REC and STUN every time you get hit and all for 60 points is probably well worth it.....but does the existence of one somewhat unbalanced advantage justify the cost of the power?

 

The alternative build (characteristics/powers limited to require you being hit first) would probably be cheaper and more useful in many circumstances. Am I missing something or is absorbtion just not worth it unless it is boosting lots of stuff simultaneously?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Well, in the case you give, that would cap out at 24*9 points of boost which is 216 points for the price of 60. Unless your "you must be hit first" limitation is worth -2.5, you're getting a better deal.

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Well, 5 points for potentially 6 is fairly lame. However, one advantages start coming into play Absorbtion is incredibly synergistic.

 

There is one case where Absorbtion becomes overwhelmingly useful.

 

The White Knight Defense (a ChuckG classic iirc, though I'll attribute it properly if someone else remembers).

Cost Powers END

White Knight Defense

60 1) Armor (16 PD/16 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (60 Active Points)

60 2) Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%

60 3) Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%

90 4) Absorption 6d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Varying Effect (May be applied against PD or ED damage; +3/4), STUN, REC, BOD, and Absorbtion Max simultaneously (+1) (90 Active Points)

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 270

There's no effective top limit to the absorbtion in this case. On average, a 24d6 attack will do 84 STUN and 24 BODY. Assuming that the character has 32 PD total, 52 STUN and 0 BODY get through. On average 21 BODY gets absorbed, adding 21 STUN, 10 BOD, 10 REC, and 42 points max to absorbtion. Now those 52 STUN that got through get taken down to 13 by the Damage Reduction, coming off of the character's base STUN. The net result is that the character has gained 8 STUN, 10 BOD, and 10 REC, all of which will last until long after his new boosted REC has replenished his original lost STUN. He also has no effective maximum total he can absorb.

 

It's broken as heck, and I don't allow it, but it always reminds me of how sneakilly effective this power can be.

 

It's also one of those 300 point Invulnerability builds that people keep claiming don't exist. If you're afraid of being hit by both PD and ED attacks in the same phase, split the Absorbtion into two 67 point slots for an aditional 44 points, or 314 total points. You can also pick something other than REC for item #3, say more dice of Absorbtion, but I like the effect of boundless energy the REC boost gives.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Well, 5 points for potentially 6 is fairly lame. However, one advantages start coming into play Absorbtion is incredibly synergistic.

 

There is one case where Absorbtion becomes overwhelmingly useful.

 

The White Knight Defense (a ChuckG classic iirc, though I'll attribute it properly if someone else remembers).

 

There's no effective top limit to the absorbtion in this case. On average, a 24d6 attack will do 84 STUN and 24 BODY. Assuming that the character has 32 PD total, 52 STUN and 0 BODY get through. On average 21 BODY gets absorbed, adding 21 STUN, 10 BOD, 10 REC, and 42 points max to absorbtion. Now those 52 STUN that got through get taken down to 13 by the Damage Reduction, coming off of the character's base STUN. The net result is that the character has gained 8 STUN, 10 BOD, and 10 REC, all of which will last until long after his new boosted REC has replenished his original lost STUN. He also has no effective maximum total he can absorb.

 

It's broken as heck, and I don't allow it, but it always reminds me of how sneakilly effective this power can be.

 

It's also one of those 300 point Invulnerability builds that people keep claiming don't exist. If you're afraid of being hit by both PD and ED attacks in the same phase, split the Absorbtion into two 67 point slots for an aditional 44 points, or 314 total points. You can also pick something other than REC for item #3, say more dice of Absorbtion, but I like the effect of boundless energy the REC boost gives.

 

 

That is cunning but I wonder whether the potential for abuse really justifies the base cost? I mean you can build a 1d6 EB with autofire, penetrating x4 and AoE (radius) personal immunity at 0 END for a handful of points and deliver massive damage with little chance of missing. OK that is far more abusive than the White Knight construct but I wonder if the principle is not the same....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Absorbtion

 

On point 1, I don't get it. Going over AP limits is going over AP limits. You might as well not count things like Haymakers, velocity damage and extra DCs for Martial Arts if you arn't gonna count Absorption. Does anyone really just look at it and say "well, you can potentially have a 90 STR in my 50 AP cap game, but since that'll only happen because you have Absorption I'm okay with it"?

 

2 and 3 are what really make any of the Adjustment Powers worth using, especially if you have a restricted target (such as self only). One of my favorite characters is a beamer with 40 point Powers in a 60-70 AP game, and Absorption that adds to all those powers simultaneously. After a few hits, he's usually hitting even harder back. His favorite maneuver was Roll With Punch.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Absorbtion

 

On point 1, I don't get it. Going over AP limits is going over AP limits. You might as well not count things like Haymakers, velocity damage and extra DCs for Martial Arts if you arn't gonna count Absorption. Does anyone really just look at it and say "well, you can potentially have a 90 STR in my 50 AP cap game, but since that'll only happen because you have Absorption I'm okay with it"?

 

2 and 3 are what really make any of the Adjustment Powers worth using, especially if you have a restricted target (such as self only). One of my favorite characters is a beamer with 40 point Powers in a 60-70 AP game, and Absorption that adds to all those powers simultaneously. After a few hits, he's usually hitting even harder back. His favorite maneuver was Roll With Punch.

 

Uhm... who counts Haymakers? I mean, they add to everyone's damage.

 

 

Velocity Damage is trickier. On the one hand, yikies damage, On the other, having a theoretical OCV 1 18d6 attack seems less impressive somehwo.

 

MA DC's are unrestricted.

 

 

Absorbtion is tricky to apply and relatively easy to work around. Also, it's hard to get fully charged - I'd be cool with someone who goes from minimal power to overpower if they weren't abused (always charging it up, forex).

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

That is cunning but I wonder whether the potential for abuse really justifies the base cost? I mean you can build a 1d6 EB with autofire' date=' penetrating x4 and AoE (radius) personal immunity at 0 END for a handful of points and deliver massive damage with little chance of missing. OK that is far more abusive than the White Knight construct but I wonder if the principle is not the same....[/quote']

 

I can see both sides.

 

I do agree that 5 points for potentially 6 character points, if you can survive the pounding to get them, sounds like a bad deal.

 

On the other hand (as the White Knight Defense is meant to show), Absorbtion stacks very well with high defenses and damage reduction, especially with just one or two advantages tacked on.

 

I think I'd rather see the entire mechanic scrapped and re-thought. As it is, it crosses from "Almost useless" to "Broken over-powered" in just one or two steps.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I can see both sides.

 

I do agree that 5 points for potentially 6 character points, if you can survive the pounding to get them, sounds like a bad deal.

 

On the other hand (as the White Knight Defense is meant to show), Absorbtion stacks very well with high defenses and damage reduction, especially with just one or two advantages tacked on.

 

I think I'd rather see the entire mechanic scrapped and re-thought. As it is, it crosses from "Almost useless" to "Broken over-powered" in just one or two steps.

 

Has anyone tried rebuilding those "Broken over-powered" Absorb powers using an alternative construction?

 

 

90 4) Absorption 6d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Varying Effect (May be applied against PD or ED damage; +3/4), STUN, REC, BOD, and Absorbtion Max simultaneously (+1) (90 Active Points)

 

If we did not have Absorb, this would be an Aid variant. 6d6 Aid, Persistent (+1/2), return 5/minute (+1/4), STUN, REC, END and MAX (+1), only gain points to extent of BOD rolled on attacks that hit the character by his next phase (-1/2*), Self Only (-1/2) costs 82, a savings over the 90 for Absorb that does the same thing.

 

* Because Absorb costs half what Aid does, and has Self Only and this limit built in. The real question is whether Self Only and the attacked limit are properly valued.

 

Arguably the BOD attack limitation should be -1/4 here since normal Absorb must pick PD or ED and this Absorb operates on both, in which case cost goes to 94, just a bit higher than the Absorb.

 

Or take the limit away entirely and buy 5d6 for 92 points - now you just kieep gaining points without limit, with no need for anyone to hit the character at all. Seems to me the abuse isn't due to the nature of Absorbtion.

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Or take the limit away entirely and buy 5d6 for 92 points - now you just kieep gaining points without limit, with no need for anyone to hit the character at all. Seems to me the abuse isn't due to the nature of Absorbtion.

 

It's more to do with adjustment powers as a whole. Ruling that an adjustment power can't feed itself eliminates the biggest chunk of the problem.

 

Even then, Succor has no upper limit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Where absorbtion triumphs over aid here is that it does not require actions to be taken (and attack actions at that) to use: it just sits there and powers up: to 'fix' it like absorbtion you'd need continuous and uncontrolled, or somesuch.

 

I wonder how we could do absorbtion differently though, and still have it work...?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I personally allow the gain from Absorption and Transfer to work as Healing instead of Aid (must be defined that way when it is bought). That might make it a little more worth the cost, as Healing is 10 points/die.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Uhm... who counts Haymakers? I mean' date=' they add to everyone's damage.[/quote']

 

I do... kinda. I don't have any absolute AP caps in any games I run, but I do use guidelines. If I don't want anyone running around trashing vehicles, walls and really large or helpless tough guys just by using Haymaker, I'll set my guidelines accordingly. I'll be more flexible if Haymaker was the character's only way to get that damage, or if they had some other method of achieving that damage and Haymaker couldn't possibly apply (such as a character with Offensive Strike or similar +4d6 martial maneuver).

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I personally allow the gain from Absorption and Transfer to work as Healing instead of Aid (must be defined that way when it is bought). That might make it a little more worth the cost' date=' as Healing is 10 points/die. [/quote']

 

 

Personally, I allow anything restored to its starting value by Aid, Transfer, or Absorbtion to stay there, with no fade. Never made sense to do otherwise, IMO.

[Gary]

Re: Absorbtion

 

It's more to do with adjustment powers as a whole. Ruling that an adjustment power can't feed itself eliminates the biggest chunk of the problem.

 

Even then, Succor has no upper limit.

 

 

Simply treat Increased Maximum for Adjustment powers as an Adder and it stops the infinite feedback loop right in its tracks. You now need to purchase the +1 Advantage to Adjust Adders, and that Adder has to take this +1 Advantage as well! And remember that if you feed the maximum, it must account for every Advantage applied to the base power!

 

So let's take that White Knight example. First of all with an additional +1, it becomes 4.5d6 instead of 6d6 for 90 pts and a max of 27 pts.

 

First iteration

+27 to Stun

+13 to Rec

+13 to Body

+6.75 CP of additional Absorption (after applying Advantages). That's 13.5 pts of additional maximum effect.

 

Second iteration

+13.5 Stun

+6.75 Rec

+6.75 Body

+3.25 CP additional Absorption

 

etc

 

If you continue infinitely, you get an infinite series and eventually you'll reach double the first iteration or +54 Stun, +26 Body, and +26 Rec. Not terribly abusive for 90 pts spent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Personally' date=' I allow anything restored to its starting value by Aid, Transfer, or Absorbtion to stay there, with no fade. Never made sense to do otherwise, IMO.[/quote']

 

1d6 Aid (10 pts), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), STUN and END at the same time (+1/2) 35 active points Self Only (-1/2), only to starting maximum (-1/2) 17 real points

 

Recover 3.5 STUN and 7 END every phase for less than the cost of +10 REC.

 

I think there should be an option to make Aborb, Transfer and Aid have healing properties, but this would be an advantage, and it should have the same caps as Healing.

 

If I can buy Aid for 10 points per d6, and it:

 

- acts as healing

- has no cap to the amounts healed

- can raise my stat over starting maximum with a fade rate

- costs 0 END

 

why would I ever pay 10 points for a d6 of Healing?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Absorbtion

 

By itself Absorption is basicaly pretty weak, especially since it doesnt Heal anymore in 5th Edition. Personally I think you should be able to define Transfer and Absorption as being either Aid or Heal based when you buy the Power, but whatever.

 

It essentially works like a Damage Shield Aid to the character which is just kind of lame without something to back it up.

 

However, it enables a variety of different builds and much like the similar Transfer it responds quickly and easily to Advantages.

 

Its a good building block Power, but only sees its value when used in conjunction with other building blocks, essentially.

 

 

However, trying to build more complex characters around an Absorption concept gets clumsy; thats why I made the Threshold Framework on my site -- to address that specific gap.

 

 

As an aside there is also an option in The Ultimate Brick that allows Absorption to work as a real defense without the Armor Only Up To Amount Absorbed kludge that is pretty good.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

1d6 Aid (10 pts), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), STUN and END at the same time (+1/2) 35 active points Self Only (-1/2), only to starting maximum (-1/2) 17 real points

 

Recover 3.5 STUN and 7 END every phase for less than the cost of +10 REC.

 

I think there should be an option to make Aborb, Transfer and Aid have healing properties, but this would be an advantage, and it should have the same caps as Healing.

 

If I can buy Aid for 10 points per d6, and it:

 

- acts as healing

- has no cap to the amounts healed

- can raise my stat over starting maximum with a fade rate

- costs 0 END

 

why would I ever pay 10 points for a d6 of Healing?

 

I still can't figure out why Aid and Healing had to be made into seperate powers, unless it was just so they could turn Regeneration into a built power...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I still can't figure out why Aid and Healing had to be made into seperate powers' date=' unless it was just so they could turn Regeneration into a built power...[/quote']

 

I believe it was so that they could have the stardard "something increases the Active Points" always have a Fade, even if it raises a previously Drained Power, and a seperate one that specifically never fades, but only raises to starting value. Different enough mechanics, and both common enough to warrent separate powers.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I believe it was so that they could have the stardard "something increases the Active Points" always have a Fade' date=' even if it raises a previously Drained Power, and a seperate one that specifically never fades, but only raises to starting value. Different enough mechanics, and both common enough to warrent separate powers.[/quote']

 

Limitation: Only to Starting Value

Limitation: Even restored APs fade.

 

There. Given everything else that was combined together, with the intention of building it from a single base Power with modifiers...why not leave this as one base Power and build off of it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Limitation: Only to Starting Value

Limitation: Even restored APs fade.

 

There. Given everything else that was combined together, with the intention of building it from a single base Power with modifiers...why not leave this as one base Power and build off of it?

 

Or

 

Advantage: Can exceed Starting Value

Advantage: restored AP's do not fade

 

In my view, the truly unbalanced aspect of the 4e approach was that restored points which did not fade were unlimited. There was no cap. Thus, a 1d6 Aid (5 pts) Stun and END (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2), only to starting max (-1/2), for 10 points, provides for unlimited recovery on a pretty rapid timetable - standard effect gets me 3 STUN and 6 END per phase, or 15 and 30 for a 5 SPD character.

 

With the 5e approach, I would like to see an advantage for "restored points do not fade" which would make Aid the equivalent of Healing. Restored points won't fade, but only the max on the dice can be restored in a 24 hour period (but scrap the whole "must roll higher on the dice than last time" mechanic). IIRC, this works out as a +1 advantage. Now we would get:

 

1d6 Aid (10 pts) Stun and END (+1/2), continuous (+1), uncontrolled (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), restored points don't fade (+1), restore limit is per phase (+1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2), only to starting max (-1/2) costs 31 points, at least a bit more in line with its utility.

[Kristopher]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Or

 

Advantage: Can exceed Starting Value

Advantage: restored AP's do not fade

 

In my view, the truly unbalanced aspect of the 4e approach was that restored points which did not fade were unlimited. There was no cap. Thus, a 1d6 Aid (5 pts) Stun and END (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2), only to starting max (-1/2), for 10 points, provides for unlimited recovery on a pretty rapid timetable - standard effect gets me 3 STUN and 6 END per phase, or 15 and 30 for a 5 SPD character.

 

With the 5e approach, I would like to see an advantage for "restored points do not fade" which would make Aid the equivalent of Healing. Restored points won't fade, but only the max on the dice can be restored in a 24 hour period (but scrap the whole "must roll higher on the dice than last time" mechanic). IIRC, this works out as a +1 advantage. Now we would get:

 

1d6 Aid (10 pts) Stun and END (+1/2), continuous (+1), uncontrolled (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), restored points don't fade (+1), restore limit is per phase (+1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2), only to starting max (-1/2) costs 31 points, at least a bit more in line with its utility.

 

Or the GM can have a spine and respond to the 4th Ed example by saying, "No, if you want a character that heals rapidly, buy more REC and some Regeneration, you twink."

 

Gah, that sounds a lot more confrontational than I meant it. Just got done with a problem customer.

[mattingly]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Absoption weirdness also can lead to the "Albino Superman" concept.

 

Absorb Energy, Incredibly Long Fade, into All Physical Characteristics (+2); Sunlight Only (-1)

Susceptibility: Sunlight, 1d6 per Day

[OddHat]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Absoption weirdness also can lead to the "Albino Superman" concept.

 

Absorb Energy, Incredibly Long Fade, into All Physical Characteristics (+2); Sunlight Only (-1)

Susceptibility: Sunlight, 1d6 per Day

 

I'm fairly sure Absorbtion wouldn't apply to your own susceptability, but it's a fine bit of munchkining if it's legal.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Absorbtion

 

I'm fairly sure Absorbtion wouldn't apply to your own susceptability' date=' but it's a fine bit of munchkining if it's legal. [/quote']

 

Problem: Susceptability damage does not heal while you're taking it. So the Albino Superman will be very low on Stun.

[mattingly]

Re: Absorbtion

 

Okay, then change it to once every 6 Hours. He'll take 2d6 STUN during the day, and heal up at night.