Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

[Thia Halmades]

Hey Steve;

 

I've been constructing a HALO conversion from the video-game over to HERO mechanics. So far, I've managed to to build all the weapons, and my fantasy background will make building the alien racial packages a snap. There's only one thing I can't actually figure out how to build.

 

There's a self-replenishing force field that the lead character, Master Chief has. The DEF is limited (say, 3) and it has a specific amount of BODY (15) which recharges after one turn not under fire. The only thing I can't figure out is which power/group of powers/base to create new power is required to design it. Force Field is the obvious one, except that's just straight DEF with no BODY on it.

 

Do I build it as a "vehicle" or "item?" 1:1 for BODY and then use DEF normally at 3:1 with all the various lims & adders? Is there another power that would be more efficient in this case? It's the only thing I can't figure out how to build.

 

Help!

 

Thanks!

 

~DEM

[Steve Long]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Since this is a "how to," I've moved it to the Discussion board so anyone who likes can chime in.

 

Not being familiar with HALO, I'm probably not the best person to ask about this. My initial impression would be to buy a Force Field with X PD/X ED (some appropriate low amount), then another +Y PD/+Y ED with a Limitation that reflects the behavior described. But since I haven't actually seen this thing in action there may be a better way that I'm not thinking of offhand.

[Lairian]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Initial thought is 15 BOD, with a 3/3 FF linked to it, and an Extra Time Heal (full round) with Only for Force Field BOD.

 

Edit after referencing book:

Further thought is that since Characteristics are Persistant, linked probably should be replaced by Limited Power: only when Force Field BOD are not depleted. If you want the recovery of the BOD and defense to be hands off (rather than assuming Master Chief is messing with the field "when you're not looking" out of combat, you could use a Regeneration with Limited Power: only out of combat and only for force field BOD.

 

I'd use an obvious inaccessable Focus for all of this rather than a vehicle (power armor is too small to imply vehicle to me).

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Use the Ablative limitation on force field. Yeah, so the book says you can't restore in until the end of the adventure but it also mentions that it can be faster with GM approval. At the -1/2 level, the activation roll only depletes if BODY damage gets through the force field. Since you're asking for it to return after a single turn, I'd change the limitation to be -1/4 and that seems fair. It's not as good as a non-ablative force field but also not as bad as a purely ablative force field. This sort of handwaving is done when describing the force fields of a starship in Star Hero and it seems acceptible.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

ACK.

 

Ablative doesn't work, if you're unfamiliar with the material, I'll tell you why. Because Ablative breaks down and lets "some damage" through eventually, which isn't the purpose of the device.

 

The pupose of the device is to stop damage absolutly (BODY) and recharge itself after one turn. The only way I found to do it was as an Entangle, and that's so expensive it's stupid. So buying the FF is easy (3/3). Done. Do I just do PLUS BODY (15), Recharges after one Turn of taking no damage (Extra Time, -1)?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

ACK.

 

Ablative doesn't work, if you're unfamiliar with the material, I'll tell you why. Because Ablative breaks down and lets "some damage" through eventually, which isn't the purpose of the device.

 

The pupose of the device is to stop damage absolutly (BODY) and recharge itself after one turn. The only way I found to do it was as an Entangle, and that's so expensive it's stupid. So buying the FF is easy (3/3). Done. Do I just do PLUS BODY (15), Recharges after one Turn of taking no damage (Extra Time, -1)?

Isn't there now a version of Ablative that breaks down whether or not damage gets through (and reduces the DEF value rather than applying an Activation)? That (or a minorly modified version of it) plus a little without the Limitation sounds like about what you are looking for.

[Lairian]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Shield Damage Absorbtion

15 BOD Characteristic (30 AP), OIF (-1/2 power armor and force shield array)

RP: 20

 

Shield Damage Reduction

3/3 DEF Force Field, Persistant(+1/2), 0 END (+1/2) (12 AP), OIF (-1/2 power armor and force shield array), Limited Power (-1/4 Only when Shield Damage Absorbtion is Not Depleted)

RP: 7

 

Shield Recharge

10d6 BOD Heal, 0 END (+1/2), Standard Effect (+0), (150 AP), OIF (-1/2 power armor and force shield array), Limited Power (-1 Only for Shield Damage Absorbtion), Extra Time (-1 1/4 Full Turn Post 12)

RP: 40

 

This models a shield that drops a small amount of damage off every attack, until it stops 15 BOD, after which it no longer reduces damage. The shield comes back after a round of not-getting-attacked.

 

The 150 AP Heal is going to red flag like crazy. If anyone can come up with a cheaper modeled heal, that'd be good.

 

Incidently, Limited Power values based on Linked in the FF (done this way so the FF turns off when out of BOD, since it wouldn't with a persistant Characteristic with Linked), and with "power losing half effect" on the heal, since I'll assume the character has about as much personal BOD as shield BOD. Exact values on those may vary.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Okay, let's try this (thanks Lairon, I think you nailed it).

 

MJOLNIR/Covenant Elite Armor:

 

Armor 5/5 (15, easy).

 

PLUS

 

Force Shield (bought as vehicle), BODY 15 (energy field), DEF 3, Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), Hardened vs. Projectiles (+1/4) (42 Active Points); OIF (Integral to MJOLNIR, -1/2), Can be Dispelled (-1/2), DEF ceases operation when BODY is depleted (-1/2). Total cost: 17 points.

 

PLUS , Heal BODY (5d6, SER 15 BODY), Trigger (After one turn of taking no damage, not controlled by user, resets automatically, +1/2) (75 Active Points), Only for Force Field (-2), OIF (Integral to MJOLNIR, -1/2), Total cost: 21 points.

 

Final Cost: 53/5 = 11 real points.

 

Edit: Lairon made a good point, I'd forgotten to turn off the DEF when the BODY was depleted. While I recognize that this isn't a "normal" vehicle, building the vehicle mechanics makes the suit cheap, efficient, and the HEAL applies only to the Shield. The Armor on the suit itself, the 5/5, is integrated and is the only protection Master Chief has after his shields come down.

 

Okay. This model is way cheaper than my first version, among other things. Purchased as a vehicle, that makes the BODY 1:1, which makes this a more dispellable version than anything else without a handwave. In this version, MJOLNIR itself is a vehicle, and as such only costs 56/5 = 11 Real Points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

You were one click ahead of me Lairon, my model is cheaper and I think covers the whole thing. Thoughts? Don't forget that as a Vehicle it buys BODY at a 1:1, instead of 2:1, which makes the HEAL cheaper.

[Lairian]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Using Trigger is clever; hadn't thought to do that. Keeps it much more hands-free on the part of the character.

 

Remember to link the armor to the BOD somehow, otherwise even when the shield is shot off you damage continues to be reduced. I don't remember if Master Chief takes more damage when his shields drop or not. If he doesn't ignore that part. Been a while since HALO 1 where you can see the health bar. Plus it's cheaper that way since it's only protecting the BOD from the shield and not the wearer's personal BOD.

 

I would still classify the shield as a Focus and not a Vehicle, myself, since vehicles are larger than people in my brain. That's arguing semantics, however, so my definition isn't nearly as important as the GM's definition.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

The build I have here I think will eliminate alot of the consternation. I can build it as a Focus, but that makes the HEAL infinitely more expensive... no it doesn't, it'll just take an extra phase to execute. I can build it as a focus.

 

However, doing so jacks the cost of the Heal to 10d6, as you had it, and makes the whole thing far more expensive. My version is quite a bit simpler in terms of how to execute the heal. Interesting. I see what you're saying, but in this case the semantic difference saves a boatload of points.

[Lairian]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Fair enough then. So long as you and the GM agree that it's a Vehicle, a Vehicle it shall be.

[Frenchman]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

How about building it as a 3/3 force field, defined as being the 'top layer' of defense, and 15 1/1 force walls 'underneath' it?

Then you'd take 3 body off each hit, and then take off body 1 force wall at a time until they're all gone. Just add an extra time (1 Turn) limitation to the force walls and say they always come back in phase 12.

[Lairian]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

That's a really neat way to go about it, actually. You'd have to make sure all attacks you buy afterwards would be indirect, and find a way to breathe, but it's a whole lot cheaper (and closer to SFX description) to build it as layered Force Walls.

[Tarek]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Star Hero, page 198, talks about Ablative as it applies to Starships/Force Shields, and suggests a variation of Ablative (-3/4, may be reestablished x amount of time after it breaks).

 

Not being familiar with HALO, this variation works best if the force field doesn't protect while "charging up", I think. You can probably extend the logic and make it a -1/2 limitation (defenses 'recover' at x points per post-segment 12) if you want to.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

*blinks* Of course me and the GM agree.

 

I'm him.

[David Johnston]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

The problem with using forcewall is that if you have Indirect weapons to get around it, so will the enemy. And the problem with using 15 extra Body to represent the protection it gives, is that this approach overlooks the STUN. I'm assuming you don't want to get knocked into a coma. The simplest approach is just to get a huge forcefield with the limitation "not when you've been hit last turn".

[Frenchman]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Yeah...I'd forgotten about the indirect

But having Indirect at +1/4 on your weapon wouldn't allow you to go around another persons force field, since the indirect is defined as originating just in front of your force field.

If I was the GM, I may just ignore the requirement for indirect on your own weapons - simplicity always appeals to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

The problem with using forcewall is that if you have Indirect weapons to get around it' date=' so will the enemy. And the problem with using 15 extra Body to represent the protection it gives, is that this approach overlooks the STUN. I'm assuming you don't want to get knocked into a coma. The simplest approach is just to get a huge forcefield with the limitation "not when you've been hit last turn".[/quote']

 

As long as the Force Wall blocks all BOD from the attack, no STUN gets through.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

Yeah...I'd forgotten about the indirect

But having Indirect at +1/4 on your weapon wouldn't allow you to go around another persons force field, since the indirect is defined as originating just in front of your force field.

If I was the GM, I may just ignore the requirement for indirect on your own weapons - simplicity always appeals to me.

 

Or just set a campaign guideline that the technology only exists for +1/4 Indirect to get around your own forcewall (an attack which is synched up to the forcewall) not to generate higher levels which could get around an opponent's forcewall.

 

[Then you can introduce an advanced species that has such technology, and make accessing or duplicating that tech a focus of a campaign arc, if you're so inclined.]

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

If you haven't played HALO I can see where this would get confusing. If I were to rebuild my Needler, I might do it via Indirect, only to stick needles to the target. Then when I build the Jackals personal shields, they're hardened. Voila.

 

Here's the dilly-o. I'll explain the problem again for those who may have missed it and to keep everyone on track. You have, in HERO, multiple ways to build defenses, but all defenses in HERO are considered to be a variation on +PD or +DCV. There is not an "extra BODY" defense type, other than... wait for it... Extra BODY.

 

The force-field I'm simulating is an absolute defense; nothing gets through it. If you were to build it in HERO as an Ablataive Force Field, with X rPD / X rED, you run into a problem almost immediately. Either you aren't doing enough damage to force an Ablative roll, or you're doing too much damage and the Force Field isn't really doing it's job.

 

In the last couple of days I've considered saying "screw it" and going with the flow and simply building it as a 5/5 Ablative Force Field; but at 5/5 it will break down quickly, especially in the face of various energy weapons and automatic fire. If I make it 10/10, or even 7/7, the odds of it taking damage from standard small arms diminish greatly, hence its DEF is never overcome and it never makes an Ablative check.

 

New question!

 

Is there a rule in the book (you can give me a page number if you don't want to quote Steve directly) that allows me to build a powerful force field... say 20/20 - but will still break down regardless of how much damage it takes?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

New question!

 

Is there a rule in the book (you can give me a page number if you don't want to quote Steve directly) that allows me to build a powerful force field... say 20/20 - but will still break down regardless of how much damage it takes?

 

I don't think there's a rule for it, but I would just apply a "limited power" limitation to it. The limit should be greater than Ablative, since it will break down every time. I'd award a pretty high limitation for a Field that collapses for a turn once it's blocked one attack, or even that only works for one phase in a turn, or some fixed number of segments in a turn. Assuming characters of 3 SPD, or a four segment per turn usage, it's likely to be down 2/3 of the time, which would justify -1 1/4 or -1 1/2 to me. Reduce it to 3 segments, and I'd allow a -2. Less time, I'd probably even consider a limitation greater than -2 (not book legal and the sky will fall in, I know, but the fact is, a force field that's only up one or two segments a turn isn't even worth 1/3 of its base cost).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

And I'd be inclined to agree with that, which is why building the thing is so freaking tricky. 10/10 makes sense, in a fashion, but if it gets chipped down after 5 rounds of auto-fire it isn't worth much - Agreed. Making it less powerful really defeats the purpose and the feel of the Force Field, which is also a route of madness I'm not interested in taking.

 

So my version now looks like this:

 

48 Force Field: 8d6 SER Major Transform (Surrounding Particles into Force Field, BODY 15, DEF 3; Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), Covers User & All Equipment (+1/4), Trigger, Creates New Force Field to replace current Force Field (not controlled by user, must be unharmed for one Turn, requires one Turn to reset trigger, +1/4) (240 Active Points); OIF (-1), No Concious Control (User cannot control activation of Force Field, -1), Does not gain User's DEF (-1), No Range, (Moves as user moves, -1/2), Can be Dispelled (-1/4), Can be Destroyed (DEF no longer applies, -1/4)

 

Depending on how you look at it, it's either very elegant, in that I managed to build it and easily rule a 1:1 BODY ratio on the surrounding air for the transform, as it's part of the vehicle design, or incredibly messy.

 

What I like about this version of it is that the Transform is a set amount (always 24, so 8d6) on a Trigger (taking it out of player control) and made giving yourself a whole 'second body' as it were much cheaper. In addition, because it's a transform, as an inanimate object it can be destroyed, thus denying the user the DEF once it's down. I added a custom lim to simulate this so there wouldn't be any confusion.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but why not something along the lines of:

 

X/X FF, Reduced End (0 END) , Ablative, No Conscious Control (Cannot activate -1)

 

then:

 

Naked Advantage for FF Trigger (Reset Force Field after X amount of Time), Reduced End (0 End), Not if has taken damage during X amount of time.

 

IDHMBIFOM, but that should basically cover Master Chief's recharging force field.

 

You couls easily replace the FF with Force Wall, Extra Body or what have you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a collapsing/recharging force field.

 

I've seen suggestions for a similar construct based on an Entangle, usable only on self, with personal immunity in the past. hmmm...what about...

 

61 Force Field: 2d6 Entangle, 3 DEF (25 points), Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), Trigger, Creates New Force Field to replace current Force Field (not controlled by user, must be unharmed for one Turn, requires one Turn to reset trigger, +1/4), pers immunity (+1/4) (50 Active Points);Linked (-1/4; to major entangle); OIF (-1/2), No Concious Control (User cannot control activation; -1), No Range, (-1/2), Self Only (-1) - 12 real points PLUS

 

14d6 Entangle (140 points), Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), Trigger, Creates New Force Field to replace current Force Field (not controlled by user, must be unharmed for one Turn, requires one Turn to reset trigger, +1/4), pers immunity (280 Active Points);Linked (-1/4; to minor entangle); OIF (-1/2), No Concious Control (User cannot control activation; -1), No Range, (-1/2), Self Only (-1), No defense (-1 1/2) - 49 real points

 

That's slightly more expensive (but I used -1/2 for OIF... and there may be other valid limitations).

 

That gets you a 2d6 3 DEF entangle, plus the 14 BOD entangle, so we have 15 BOD (highest +1 per additional layered Entangle). End result: 3 DEF, 15 BOD barrier, with the guy on the inside benefiting from +18 PD and ED (reduced as the Entangle gets chipped away).