How would you have handled this (GMs)?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

I find this no more obnoxious than spending the better part of a game just watching because you were struck with a large surprise attack' date=' or got creamed with a lucky damage roll. A 4d6 RKA rolling, say, 15 BOD and a 5x Multiple does 75 STUN. That's enough to Stun most Supers, and the villains are stupid if they fail to take advantage of a Stunned target.[/quote']

 

And this is, in my experience, the single most house ruled (or otherwise) negated part of the entire game, for that exact reason (because it can take you out of an entire scene randomly).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

And this is' date=' in my experience, the single most house ruled (or otherwise) negated part of the entire game, for that exact reason (because it can take you out of an entire scene randomly).[/quote']

 

A 12d6 normal attack from surprise (before combat starts) will inflict 84 STUN on a target who may not have his full defenses available, and just as effectively remove someone from the fight before it even starts. Coordinated atttacks are also very effective in this regard.

 

Sometimes, the character gets KO'd early.

[incrdbil]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

I've never had to deal with CLOWN very much. Sometimes heroes get in embarassing situations. Players need to deal with it. Getting mad because your character has been 'embarassed' once should be given no more sympathy than a player who stomps off in a rage or whine incessantly because his PC finally lost a fight, or was captured for the first time.

 

But, like anything, there are limits. It's no fun to always lose, always be captured. CLOWN should get theirs, and the players should get some payback. Eternally having CLOWN escape comically, laughing about it, and out there is in effect CLOWN always winning. Having them always released, or the players criticized for taking them down because 'CLOWN doesn't really hurt anyone' is silly too. There are other CVK villains who go straight to jail as well, and no one really minds the PC's applying a full force beat down. CLOWJN has super-powers, they use them in public, by definitoion, that pputs people and property in danger, they are villains, and just because they mmay be silly on the surface doesn't change diminish the fact the PC's are justified in beating them down. Use CLOWN, have a humorous adventure, then let the PC's have an even shot at returning the favor, then shelve them and move on with the campaign. CLOWN can be fun, as a change of pace type thing for many standard campaigns. They have no right to exist at all in more serious games. I can see mistakes made, where a DM has such fun the first time he uses them, he thinks it will be just as funny the second, third, and then tenth time. Like many jokes, once is more than enough. But have fun the first go around.

 

I recall a team that was basically a CLOWN equivalent we faced, maybe a little more larcenous than CLOWN. Can't recall their name at their moment, but I do recall the characters. Gender Bender was annoying. The fights were fun... but we only saw them twice in the campaign, which was just right.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

 

But, like anything, there are limits. It's no fun to always lose, always be captured. CLOWN should get theirs, and the players should get some payback.

 

Yeah. When I used them, I had them mock a specific "very serious" HERO and make her look stupid.

 

She then waited until she knew CLOWN was on a caper, and broke into thier base. She didn't break anything or boobytrap stuff, but broke into each of the quarters and left snide comments, her own mockery, and such.... and took one of thier silly booby traps and set it up to nail whoever came in the front door when they got back.

 

So they did a TV show that mocked the superteam, her specifically.

 

She arranged to make clown look like fools on national TV with a set up.They got away, but she got what she was after.

 

They then invited her to join.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

A 12d6 normal attack from surprise (before combat starts) will inflict 84 STUN on a target who may not have his full defenses available, and just as effectively remove someone from the fight before it even starts. Coordinated atttacks are also very effective in this regard.

 

Sometimes, the character gets KO'd early.

 

I don't think I've ever seen the 'out of combat' x2 used prior to an actual fight; it's purposes strikes me more as to allow for sucker punches.

 

Coordination is also somewhat unusual, and usually limited to PCs.

 

 

 

And I would apologise for/expect *****ing from either of those.

 

 

(Also, transforms do a side run around most of your abilities. It's not about you being fragile. It's about them rolling well enough.)

 

 

 

Also, it is easier to come back from a KOing than a transformation.

[nexus]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

Just caught myself thinking back to an old scenario that left a bad taste in my mouth. It was years ago, but still ...

 

The situation is that CLOWN (4th Edition) was doing their Live Action Role Play thing, with one of them as Mechanon and the rest as various Champions. Now, of course, the PCs came on like gangbusters into 'Mechanon' (who was Trump Knight, and he could take it), but this shredded his Aluminum Foil costume (for the record, that was the WORST series of perception rolls I'd ever seen in my life).

 

So, the rest of CLOWN unmasks and the fight starts in earnest. During the battle, Tag (formerly Obsidian) wallops the team brick (Avatar, who was an Avatar of Heng, an American-Indian War God) a good one, and stuns her. Her forcefield drops. Before Tag can follow up, Toe-Tapper, seeing what happened, tags a nearby inanimate object, which of course draws Tag's attention. Avatar proceeds to un-stun and strike the no-resistant-defense Toe Tapper with a killing attack, doing enough Body to reduce him to negatives.

 

At this point, the fight stops as CLOWN and most of the other PCs work on getting Toe Tapper to medical attention. Avatar is still spoiling for a fight and takes a potshot at whoever was getting Tapper clear.

 

Avatar has no statements for-or-against killing (though she did have a 'likes to fight'). The team voted for expulsion, and I started poking about on legal stuff to see precisely how that might have played out legally, given that CLOWN's no-serious-damage reputation is well-established, which one would think means that Avatar definitely used excessive force, particularly since Tapper saved her from recieving an AP pasting with a big chunk of her defenses down.

 

Oh, UN sanctioned team, by the by, and the fight was at the Washington Monument, IIRC. How badly would you have put the screws to Avvie?

 

At the very least a reprimand for excessive force, a suspension and re training

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

I don't think I've ever seen the 'out of combat' x2 used prior to an actual fight; it's purposes strikes me more as to allow for sucker punches.

 

Absolutely - I was referring to an ambush, not the two teams squaring off and one getting the first shot off. Why pay for Stealth, or Invisibility, if you don't expect to use it effectively?

 

Coordination is also somewhat unusual' date=' and usually limited to PCs.[/quote']

 

Why, in game, would trained agents (or Superteams who have worked and trained together for extended periods) be less able to co-ordinate than the PC's? If the ability is to be restricted, it should carry a point cost so that those PC's wanting to use it have to pay for it. We don't restrict "Passing Strike" to PC's or NPC's, we allow it (or not!) to anyone who pays the cost of the maneuver.

 

Another easy way to get KO'd solidly and early on - you're hit with an attack to which you're Vulnerable.

 

Also' date=' it is easier to come back from a KOing than a transformation.[/quote']

 

At -31 or turned into a toad, you're equally out of the fight - at least in most games I've played. [ASIDE: A BOD aid would seem really useful when your ally has been Transformed...]

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

Absolutely - I was referring to an ambush' date=' not the two teams squaring off and one getting the first shot off. Why pay for Stealth, or Invisibility, if you don't expect to use it effectively? [/quote']

 

Lessee.... because it's useful once combat begins, AND excellent before it does (not for getting sucker punches - for doing noncombat "stuff")?

 

oh - and instantly having a post seg 12 doesn't hurt either, since it means STUN+DEF+20 becomes the 'one punch' target (otherwise they will get up soon enough).

 

 

Why, in game, would trained agents (or Superteams who have worked and trained together for extended periods) be less able to co-ordinate than the PC's? If the ability is to be restricted, it should carry a point cost so that those PC's wanting to use it have to pay for it. We don't restrict "Passing Strike" to PC's or NPC's, we allow it (or not!) to anyone who pays the cost of the maneuver.

 

Neither do I, or anyone I've encountered... but most villains I've run/run into have been either slightly more numerous or outnumbered, and simple put - have not dogpiled on a lone target (except in one annoying case where the player had complained about being fragile so a) I rewrote them a bit pointed out his overall skill levels [plural] and c) let him spend XP on it... yeah, they collectively bounced, oops).

 

(simply put, they've usually been in the position of making _everyone_ feel a little nervous, I guess)

 

 

Nothing to do with ability. Everything to do with a 'take them all on one on one' sort of thinking.

 

 

Another easy way to get KO'd solidly and early on - you're hit with an attack to which you're Vulnerable.

 

 

 

At -31 or turned into a toad, you're equally out of the fight - at least in most games I've played. [ASIDE: A BOD aid would seem really useful when your ally has been Transformed...]

 

 

I think what it boils down to is this:

 

I very rarely DO KO PC's, and don't see it happen often either, and when someone _does_ go down, they get helped up again. And villains tend to go up and down a bit too.

 

And players are likely to be annoyed if KO'd early, too.

 

 

 

And being turned into a photograph is less fun than being KO'd anyway, since it's _stupid_. KO'd, you got beaten down. Sometimes you lose.

 

Photograph-ified? How the heck are you supposed to beat someone who can do THAT to you (and please no metagaming answers... that misses the point)?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

Neither do I, or anyone I've encountered... but most villains I've run/run into have been either slightly more numerous or outnumbered, and simple put - have not dogpiled on a lone target

 

Nothing to do with ability. Everything to do with a 'take them all on one on one' sort of thinking.

 

This is why I don't see most Supers co-ordinate very often. Agents generally outnumber the Supers, however, and co-ordination, multiple attacker bonuses, etc. can be very useful when you're weaker targets in higher numbers (hmmm...same reason PC's use it against that solo Megavillain).

 

 

And being turned into a photograph is less fun than being KO'd anyway, since it's _stupid_. KO'd, you got beaten down. Sometimes you lose.

 

Photograph-ified? How the heck are you supposed to beat someone who can do THAT to you (and please no metagaming answers... that misses the point)?

 

Perhaps the problem is that, when you can fight and maybe win, you can use your brawn to win the battle. If he can turn you into a [whatever] every time, you probably need to use your brain to win the battle by setting up your opponent (much like some old Marvels and many old DC's where the villain can't be beaten directly, but must be beaten indirectly by outsmarting him).

 

To quote an entire gaming group "Oh no! We have to use our BRAINS!"

[Koshka]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

I haven't run CLOWN, so I'll stay out of that part of the argument.

 

The one legit and in-character excuse that Avatar could give for his actions:

 

"The fight was between Tag and I; by interfering in our duel, Toe Tapper dishonored me, and, as a result, suffered the consequences. I don't think Toe Tapper will ever do that again."

 

My next question: Did Avatar had this sort of honor code already established (either via Psych Lims or roleplaying) before that fight? If not, nice try Avatar, you've just added perjury to the list of charges.

 

Had this happened at my table ... well, the PCs voted expulsion, so there's not much left for me to do other than triple-check whatever new character Avatar's player comes up with to make sure it's a closer fit to the game. I'm not putting the rest of the group on hold to run a solo mini-adventure for Avatar during every game session, we're short enough on time as is due to work schedules. And I'm not going to force Avatar down their throats by making up reasons he always turns up at the crime du jour despite being kicked off the team. Avatar's legal problems would just go into the background of the game -- "let's see, during the three months you were adventuring on Loezen, the local college team made it to the College World Series but lost in the semifinals, Foxbat tried to pull a hostile takeover of Survivor: Whereever They Are This Season, and Avatar's appeal failed".

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

This is why I don't see most Supers co-ordinate very often. Agents generally outnumber the Supers' date=' however, and co-ordination, multiple attacker bonuses, etc. can be very useful when you're weaker targets in higher numbers (hmmm...same reason PC's use it against that solo Megavillain). [/quote']

 

Players like being taken down early by AGENTS?

 

News to me.

 

Perhaps the problem is that, when you can fight and maybe win, you can use your brawn to win the battle. If he can turn you into a [whatever] every time, you probably need to use your brain to win the battle by setting up your opponent (much like some old Marvels and many old DC's where the villain can't be beaten directly, but must be beaten indirectly by outsmarting him).

 

To quote an entire gaming group "Oh no! We have to use our BRAINS!"

 

[To be adressed later]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

Players like being taken down early by AGENTS?

 

News to me.

 

Generally the agents need co-ordination to stay competetive. This traces back to your comment that you basically see co-ordination only done by PC's.

 

[Although the agents of Deathstroke from way back when could take down characters without FW pretty handily if they had some prep time.]