Trying to run a game for my old GM --

[White Heat]

I am seriously considering running a Champs game for a while. I have run Storyteller games for years, so I know how to do the story part and the running part. There are at least two rules-mongers in the group I game with, so an exact understanding of all the rules seems to me to be unnecessary. I could be mistaken, but please don't let's descend into a brangle on this topic. I've been playing Champions for years, so there's a basic understanding of the rules. I doubt I have microscopic knowledge, though.

 

The question I have, and this might not be the best place for it, concerns creating characters, both bad guys and good guys. In the past, I've told the GM what type of character I wanted to make, and together we built what I had in mind. Now if I do that when I build the bad guys (rely on my old GM for help, I mean), I'll never be able to surprise the player who was once the GM.

 

What do you look at when you build a bad guy? If you're building for a group of champions, it seems that you need to look at what the good guys can do and so on, for the power level, if for nothing else. But I don't want to make a team (or several teams) of bad guys that have all the attacks the good guys are vulnerable to and none of the weaknesses their powers affect -- talk about cheating. I also don't have any idea about how to create a stable of bad guys and teams without repeating the same formula ad nauseum and without taking unfair advantage of the players weaknesses. I think I'd do better to create at least one team of villians first, before I even suggest that I run a game. That way I won't have to constrain myself by constant referrals to the good guys' character sheets. I don't even know whether that's a good idea or a bad one. I mean, what am I looking at? Where do I start?

 

Any suggestions? Or even, point me somewhere else that this has been discussed, and I'll go read there.

 

Thank you!

[Greywind]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

My villains I build from ideas. What do I want this character for? Is it based off of a personality quirk? A certain power set?

 

A lot of times, I just find myself building characters and as I build them, I get a general idea of their personality. Sometimes what I build seems better suited for a hero or protagonist as opposed to a villain.

 

I don't always build with balance in mind. A few characters swing high on the power scale. Some swing low. I just try to keep in mind what a given character is for and how I intend to use them.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Well as a quick reply, I'd recommend checking Storn's character art thread.

There's lots of new ideas to surprise your players with.

Otherwise, come up with one or two ideas for a villain, flesh it out a bit (you don't need a full writeup; but it does help) and then decide on what sort of backup they need.

Try to ignore the players weaknesses and vulnerablilities when writing up the adventure but check later to make sure that you won't insta-kill or drop a player on accident.

[White Heat]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

I don't always build with balance in mind. A few characters swing high on the power scale. Some swing low. I just try to keep in mind what a given character is for and how I intend to use them.

 

This is actually what I had in mind when I asked for help, and thank you. A suggestion for what to look for, and where I should be paying attention. That's what I'm hoping to find.

 

Thanks again!

[White Heat]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Well as a quick reply' date=' I'd recommend checking Storn's character art thread.[/quote']

 

This is also very helpful. Is there an easy way to find Storn's character art thread? Or do I look by trial and error? I'm most familiar with that method...

 

There's lots of new ideas to surprise your players with.

Otherwise, come up with one or two ideas for a villain, flesh it out a bit (you don't need a full writeup; but it does help) and then decide on what sort of backup they need.

Try to ignore the players weaknesses and vulnerablilities when writing up the adventure but check later to make sure that you won't insta-kill or drop a player on accident.

 

Hmm... I sense that I will need to read the books to get a better idea about what powers are available. I mean, picking the players' brains will destroy all sense of suspense, and I'm looking for it to be interesting...

 

I already have one bad guy thought of, and the GM said he'd help with that one (it's a clone of one of my heroes, only, after she has enought points to build her properly, and yes, she has one major susceptibility already built in). And there were other ideas I've had that would work better for villians than heroes anyway, now that I think about it. Maybe I'll dig them out too.

 

Ya know, this might actually get off the ground.

 

Thank you! I hope I can come back if I think of more questions.

[Mike W]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

I am seriously considering running a Champs game for a while. I have run Storyteller games for years, so I know how to do the story part and the running part. There are at least two rules-mongers in the group I game with, so an exact understanding of all the rules seems to me to be unnecessary. I could be mistaken, but please don't let's descend into a brangle on this topic. I've been playing Champions for years, so there's a basic understanding of the rules. I doubt I have microscopic knowledge, though.

 

The question I have, and this might not be the best place for it, concerns creating characters, both bad guys and good guys. In the past, I've told the GM what type of character I wanted to make, and together we built what I had in mind. Now if I do that when I build the bad guys (rely on my old GM for help, I mean), I'll never be able to surprise the player who was once the GM.

 

What do you look at when you build a bad guy? If you're building for a group of champions, it seems that you need to look at what the good guys can do and so on, for the power level, if for nothing else. But I don't want to make a team (or several teams) of bad guys that have all the attacks the good guys are vulnerable to and none of the weaknesses their powers affect -- talk about cheating. I also don't have any idea about how to create a stable of bad guys and teams without repeating the same formula ad nauseum and without taking unfair advantage of the players weaknesses. I think I'd do better to create at least one team of villians first, before I even suggest that I run a game. That way I won't have to constrain myself by constant referrals to the good guys' character sheets. I don't even know whether that's a good idea or a bad one. I mean, what am I looking at? Where do I start?

 

Any suggestions? Or even, point me somewhere else that this has been discussed, and I'll go read there.

 

Thank you!

 

Start by just building lots of heroes and villains. You can put them in teams later, at least some of the time. Beyond that, try to give each team some kind of shared characteristic or personality trait. For example, my world has the following teams(some heroes, some villains):

 

Hands of Fate: Group of martial artist thieves, each with a different martial art

 

Flashmen(from 4th ed. Champs): group of "heroes" who are publicity hounds first, heroes of a sort second

 

DeathWatch: Group of former Black Ops agents, nominally good guys, but they still operate as if they had "license to kill" written on their character sheets

 

Guardians: Your basic Avengers type team of heroes

 

Anarchy: Borrowed from a previous GM I played with, very powerful "Masters of Evil" type group who like to cause, well, anarchy(and taking over the world would be good too)

 

Pentagram: Group of evil mystic types, limited to five members(for obvious reasons)

 

And so on...You're going to need a minimum of 50 villains for the campaign anyway, at least if the campaign is meant to go for several months. So just start building, don't worry about what the players' specific abilities are, just build. You might keep their overall power level in mind, but even then, you can always build one big supermenace(e.g. Mechanon) and let them fight just one guy, or you can build a villain team of guys on something close to the PCs' power level and let it go at that. Be careful about point totals though. If villains aren't buying as many non-combat abilities as heroes(and this is often the case) then a 350 point villain will generally be tougher than a 350 point hero.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

This is also very helpful. Is there an easy way to find Storn's character art thread? Or do I look by trial and error? I'm most familiar with that method...

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=463&highlight=storn%27s+character+art

 

You use the search function...

[gojira]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

If you have some money to spend, check out Villiany Amok. It's got a ton of ideas about villian groups, motivations, and scenarios.

 

You might also want to check out other "campaign" threads here on the Champions genre. I get ideas all the time from descriptions of other people's games here.

 

One thing you might want to think about is to start off easy. Don't complicate the plot with lots of morals and twists. Make it a straight knock down, drag out fight. I'll look for it in a bit, but another campaign described here started with a fight against horrible aliens who wanted to enslave and eat (!) mankind. No dillemas there, nothing to negotiate, just eliminate the threat! After the players settle in you can start to work on hunteds, personal character issues, long running villian motivations, etc.

[gojira]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Ah, yes, here it is:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27202&page=1

[casualplayer]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Don't try to reinvent the wheel. You don't need to do full character sheets for every NPC. Lots of my NPCs look like this: Name-Prince of Darkness Black Paladin stats, +25 STR No Figured Char (so I don't have to recalc the PD, REC & STUN) + Dark Seraph's Indirect Lightning Bolt. Google or reuse an appropriate map for the settings, come up with a reason for all the participants to be at the scene and presto! Bam, done, let's run!

 

Hacks copy, artists steal.

[zornwil]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

White Heat, nice to see you around, however late I am to the party. I hope you're subscribing to this thread and will let us know now that it's bumped whatever happened!

[JackValhalla]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Stats for villains aren't that important. The storytelling is important. If you throw a villain at the PCs and they completely stomp him into the ground with minimal trouble, that villain is really a minion of a more powerful villain. If you throw a villain at them who jackslaps them into little piles of bruise and ouchy, then have him laugh at them and declare that they are far too weak to be a threat to his Master Plan!

Estimating the correct power level is a minor matter, and it comes with practice. Adapting to circumstances, on the other hand, is crucial.

If your original plan was "villain plus thugs break into jewelry store to steal gems for World Destruction Machine, PCs intervene", then be ready for a number of things to happen. If your villain is an even match, then move ahead as planned. If the villain loses, then either {a} his boss, whose plan this was, comes looking for him and the gems, {b} his tough-but-dumb enforcer-type lackey comes looking for him so he can get paid for guarding the hideout, {c} the machine is already built, but without the gems to stabilize it, it will go off prematurely! If the villain beats them down with little trouble in the first turn, then {a} he gloats his Master Plan and zips away, leaving them to refine their tactics and track him down before he can assemble the machine, {b} time to introduce the plucky, charming wayward villain who steals the gems right under The Villain's nose, {c} The Villain is betrayed by his weaker, but more devious, underling, who turns him in, but steals the Machine for himself!

Don't be afraid to expand the campaign somewhat. Losing a fight they're supposed to win does not shatter a game. Winning a fight they were supposed to have trouble with does not shatter a game. You sitting there dumbfounded, with no idea what to do next... that shatters a game.

Rule #7 of GMing: Never let them see you sweat.

 

If you're having trouble thinking of character concepts, then either check the art thread, or play mix-n-match, or ask your GM for help... and then alter it.

Art thread is a great way to get an impression. Look at the picture, and say, what kind of villain is this? What can I see him doing? Why does he do it?

Mix-n-match is classic... If you change the name and physical description, the PCs won't recognize it. They can't see the sheets. You need a villain who's "kinda like Ankylosaur"? Take Ankylosaur's writeup, change the name and appearance. That tail is kind of distinctive, maybe use a robotic widget that is attached to the villain by magnetic force, giving it striking power and control like a tail? Now the character's name is Orbit, and the PCs will never guess that they're fighting Ankylosaur.

Ask your GM for help. Pay attention while he or she runs through everything. Trust his or her judgement on power levels, disadvantages, that kind of stuff. But then change some things. An attack was Area Effect 1Hex? Now it's Armor Piercing. The character had Damage Reduction? Rip that out and replace it with the equivalent amount of Stun. The character's special effects were light and heat? Now it's black magic.

 

Oh, and here's a really easy quick fix for all "my villain isn't the right power level" woes: Get a GM screen. If your first attack nearly destroys the whole party, that attack just became 1 Charge, and the villain needs to switch to secondary weapons. If the PCs beat the villain down with a quickness, then your villain just got Regeneration, and Absorption. You've got the sheet in front of you, they don't. Honor is for samurai, not GMs.

 

[EDIT]

Wow, I just took a look at the dates on this thread. Uhm, I suppose it's all a settled issue by now.

[Lemurion]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

I actually will design a villain on the fly if need be. As GM I have access to all the points and powers I need. If he needs to go first, his DEX is one point higher than anyone else's. In cases like that, I don't define anything until I need to.

 

A big part of running the game is making sure your main villain makes an entertaining opponent. If you've predetermined their abilities and tactics you've pre-scripted the game and the players are guaranteed to do something else. In the session I ran last night, the main villain had a name and a goal. He also had some henchlings and equipment. I'd gone so far as to map out (rough sketch) his Zeppelin and figure some of the contingency plans he might use.

 

I didn't give him any numbers til the battle began. I took a quick break and put his DEX and SPD into my Excel tracker and ran with it. It's a pulp supers game and tends to go fast and furious. Keeping everyone in the game and the excitement running (it's session two) is more important than crunching out the details.

 

When in doubt-- I roll 3d6 and just make a judgment call based on how good a roll it was.

 

PS: I've been GMing for about 25 years now so I may have a better feel for this than some.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

I also have been playing Champions for many years. In my current game, almost all the players are equally proud of their Roleplaying AND Powergaming skills. If they feel I am "winging" a villian or a story, then I will often get an earful. They want a challenge (and gloat when things are too easy) but they don't like the feeling that a villian's stats are changing based on what attack they are using. For these reasons, I always try to have a full sheet for my villains. IMHO the biggest part of designing a villain (well, second biggest after concept) is making sure you understand how his powers work within the system and in relation to the PCs defenses. This comes with time and experience (in other words, just have fun playing and the skill will come).

 

I design my villains in several ways, based on how crtical their defeat/ or victory is to the story.

 

1. For any villain upto the power level of the heroes, I design them the same way I would a character. Yes it takes alot of time, but having a developed character (including a backstory) for the PCs to learn about, can often be just as fun for the players as smashing them. For these types of characters, I stat them as balanced characters, and if they happen to have a vulnerability to one of the players attacks, then so be it. The fight may be easier than I hoped, but I won't alter the character to make him more challenging (the challenge is often based on how well you "play" him anyway). Over sveral campaigns, you will have a decent sized stable of NPC to draw from.

 

2. For Master Villains or Re-occuring Villains that I want to be able to escape a battle (if needed for the story), I pay special attention to make sure they have complete defenses (Power, Mental, Flash, Knockback, ect.) so that the battle is a challenge, even if the players roll exceptionally well or use superior tactics (my current groups was designed with a common origin so Teamwork and Coordinated Attacks are constant). I frequently design these types of villains with more points and make sure they are very difficult to Stun (my players will try to chain Stun if possible) and are capable of frequently stunning the PCs (to force the PCs to spread out the damage, protect eachother, ect.)

 

3. I most frequently design Supervillain Teams as complete individual characters (see #1) but pay special attention to making sure they form a balanced team. Individual weaknesses are fine, but I make sure they add up to a cohesive group without a glaring flaw (like having no Brick). I plan out tactics ahead of time and make sure they have Teamwork and SPDs that facilitate Coordinated Attacks.

 

4. I design Giant Monster type villains to be able to withstand a tremendous pounding by all the players at the same time. They almost universally have Damage Reduction and a complete set of Defenses. I won't make their Attacks as powerful as a master Villain's (i.e. enough to Stun even the group's Brick), but I usually make them AE or Explosion so they can effect multiple PCs at once.

 

Though our current playstyle is pretty aggressive compared to other groups I have played in, I think starting with written guidelines and an idea of specific power levels for your villains, is useful even for the newest GMs (perhaps even more so).

[Lemurion]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

I also have been playing Champions for many years. In my current game, almost all the players are equally proud of their Roleplaying AND Powergaming skills. If they feel I am "winging" a villian or a story, then I will often get an earful. They want a challenge (and gloat when things are too easy) but they don't like the feeling that a villian's stats are changing based on what attack they are using. For these reasons, I always try to have a full sheet for my villains. IMHO the biggest part of designing a villain (well, second biggest after concept) is making sure you understand how his powers work within the system and in relation to the PCs defenses. This comes with time and experience (in other words, just have fun playing and the skill will come).

 

I design my villains in several ways, based on how crtical their defeat/ or victory is to the story.

 

1. For any villain upto the power level of the heroes, I design them the same way I would a character. Yes it takes alot of time, but having a developed character (including a backstory) for the PCs to learn about, can often be just as fun for the players as smashing them. For these types of characters, I stat them as balanced characters, and if they happen to have a vulnerability to one of the players attacks, then so be it. The fight may be easier than I hoped, but I won't alter the character to make him more challenging (the challenge is often based on how well you "play" him anyway). Over sveral campaigns, you will have a decent sized stable of NPC to draw from.

 

2. For Master Villains or Re-occuring Villains that I want to be able to escape a battle (if needed for the story), I pay special attention to make sure they have complete defenses (Power, Mental, Flash, Knockback, ect.) so that the battle is a challenge, even if the players roll exceptionally well or use superior tactics (my current groups was designed with a common origin so Teamwork and Coordinated Attacks are constant). I frequently design these types of villains with more points and make sure they are very difficult to Stun (my players will try to chain Stun if possible) and are capable of frequently stunning the PCs (to force the PCs to spread out the damage, protect eachother, ect.)

 

3. I most frequently design Supervillain Teams as complete individual characters (see #1) but pay special attention to making sure they form a balanced team. Individual weaknesses are fine, but I make sure they add up to a cohesive group without a glaring flaw (like having no Brick). I plan out tactics ahead of time and make sure they have Teamwork and SPDs that facilitate Coordinated Attacks.

 

4. I design Giant Monster type villains to be able to withstand a tremendous pounding by all the players at the same time. They almost universally have Damage Reduction and a complete set of Defenses. I won't make their Attacks as powerful as a master Villain's (i.e. enough to Stun even the group's Brick), but I usually make them AE or Explosion so they can effect multiple PCs at once.

 

Though our current playstyle is pretty aggressive compared to other groups I have played in, I think starting with written guidelines and an idea of specific power levels for your villains, is useful even for the newest GMs (perhaps even more so).

 

Some very good points there; and my group may be more comfortable with "winging it" than some. However one thing I should mention is that I don't change the villain's stats in mid fight. I just don't spend the time to define them if I don't need to.

 

Once it's defined, it's fixed.

 

It allows for a more fluid game when I don't have a lot of prep time. YMMV.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Trying to run a game for my old GM --

 

Some very good points there; and my group may be more comfortable with "winging it" than some. However one thing I should mention is that I don't change the villain's stats in mid fight. I just don't spend the time to define them if I don't need to.

 

Once it's defined, it's fixed.

 

It allows for a more fluid game when I don't have a lot of prep time. YMMV.

 

My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply anything more than my experiences with what I consider a demanding (yet very rewarding) group. I yield to your greater epxerience as I have not been playing Champs for nearly that long. No GM can prepare for everything and "winging it" to save a scene (or to enhance the fun) is sometimes necessary.