Quick Multipower Question

[SSJ Archon]

I'm building a wizard and have his magic set up as a multipower. The campaign Active point limit is 100 points. I have asked my Gm and he has agreed because my offenses and defenses have to share a single resevoir, that my multipower can top out 120 active points, but no one slot can have more than 100 active points. However, for campaign reasons I can not use all 120 at once with my staff. I can only use up to 80 without my staff. I should I build this?

At first I thought about an Aid, standard effect, Focus, but that requires ALOT of points, way more than it ought to be.

My second thought is to purchase base cost of 80 and another multipower with linked and focus of 40 points. Does this work? What about 100 active point powers?

This Linked would be -1/2

I'm trying to build it on Hero Designer 1.48 (Working with what I got.)

[gojira]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

What about a custom limitation? The 120 point multipower loses 1/3 of it's value going from 120 to 80, so at most the staff could be 1/2 lim.

 

This seems to me to be the easiest way, because if you try to build the slots with more than 80 active points (so you could aid the MP later), Hero Designer might balk.

 

Don't forget this is reserve only, unless the slots also lose 1/3 of their max power.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Only 1/2? (Yes, Obvious and Accessable)

While I do like and considered that approach...

Well it may be all I'm left with sense Hero Designer won't let me do it the other way and won't let me build a Compound Multipower. Hmmmm....

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

By using the rules for compound powers on my multipower, It has come out to 61 points:

80x(1/(1+1/2+1/4))+40x(1/(1+1/2+1/4+1))

46 + 15 = 61

 

80 Active * (1/(1+1/2 For Magic Roll +1/4 For Gestures)) = 46

40 Active * (1/(1+1/2 For Magic Roll +1/4 For Gestures +1 For Obivious Accessable Focus)) = 15

 

Adding them together yields 61.

To make Hero Designer Comply, I took Off all the Disadvantages and Moved them to Notes, Set it to 120 Base Points, so that it would let me fit everything in it, and applyed a custom disadvantage of -1, and then a +2 point adder, which makes the math come out to 61 Real points. Now I can add my powers to it.

 

Thanks for the help, even though I didn't use the custom disadvantage for what you exactly stated, it did inspire me to use it to get the points to match up. Now I just have to make sure I explain it to my GM.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Another approach would be to use Variable Limitation.

 

Example:

 

60 Multipower, 120-point reserve, (120 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -2 worth of Limitations; Any combination of Activate Roll (varied), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)(0 DCV; -1/2), Extra Time (-1/4), Focus (-1/4)~(-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2)/(x3 END; -1)(x4 END; -1 1/2)(x5 END; -2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2); -1)

 

When using: OAF Staff (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) and Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) it functions almost exactly like your build.

 

If the character loses his Staff he has some other options to make up the difference (Concentration, Extra Time, Increased END, Activate X-). Not as clear cut as hacking off 40 active points from the reserve but does free you from having to purchase full 'Multi' slots instead of cheaper 'Ultra' slots.

 

HM

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Another approach would be to use Variable Limitation.

 

Example:

 

60 Multipower, 120-point reserve, (120 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -2 worth of Limitations; Any combination of Activate Roll (varied), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)(0 DCV; -1/2), Extra Time (-1/4), Focus (-1/4)~(-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2)/(x3 END; -1)(x4 END; -1 1/2)(x5 END; -2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2); -1)

 

When using: OAF Staff (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) and Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) it functions almost exactly like your build.

 

If the character loses his Staff he has some other options to make up the difference (Concentration, Extra Time, Increased END, Activate X-). Not as clear cut as hacking off 40 active points from the reserve but does free you from having to purchase full 'Multi' slots instead of cheaper 'Ultra' slots.

 

HM

I would definately agree with this method... though I would probably do:

 

48 Multipower, 120-point reserve, (120 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (Magic Staff - OAF, X2 END & Concentration, etc...) (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2), Requires A Sorcery Skill Roll (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

There are two reasons for this...

1) Campaign or genre restrictions may dictate the three extra lims, and

2) If they are always going to be used, you might as well get full value from them!

 

Minor issue, I admit, but worth 12 cp!

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

While that method does appeal to me, I'm staying away fromit because my GM has never run Hero before, and, for example, has disallowed VPP's because they require knowing the rules at a point better than he currently does.

 

By the way, is the way I went about it legal?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

While that method does appeal to me, I'm staying away fromit because my GM has never run Hero before, and, for example, has disallowed VPP's because they require knowing the rules at a point better than he currently does.

 

By the way, is the way I went about it legal?

 

I believe the technical answer is no.

 

Your example is what's commonly referred to as a partially limited multipower which I believe has had been debated on in several threads in the past.

 

The easy to see flaw imo is what I touched on earlier. If you have a 120 reserve (80 +limited 40) you either have to purhase all your slots as multi or at ultras at set amounts like 80 or 60. This ends up really affecting the character's slot options both when he has his staff and even more when he doesn't where the variable lim method doesn't require you to affect slot power level at all (allthough you could if you wanted to for END purposes).

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Given that you can do partially limited Frameworks, and Hero Designer just doesn't support this, you could also do two Multipowers, the second of which is the portion that requires the staff... while this doesn't look quite right, the points should come out pretty close, and as GM I would sprinkle ample Handwavium over the character sheet and say "we know what you mean"

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Well most of my slots are flexible. I like the flexability. And sense the campaign limit on any power is 100 points, I can't even use those without the staff.

 

So the rules don't allow for that?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Okay, try this:

 

120 points with a -1/2 Limitation is 80 points. (Forgetting any other modifiers for now).

 

So take the 120 point multipower with the -1/2 Limitation "Only up to 2/3 maximum power without staff". (And of course this Lim will have to apply to each slot as well.)

 

Now, how to get around that with a staff? Two ways:

 

1) The staff doesn't cost you anything; it's just the particular stick you need to focus your powers, because the limitation on the multipower is when you don't have it. A bit cheesy (even though a similar build appeared officially back in 4th edition) but easy.

 

2) The point difference between the 80 you get to use without the staff and the 120 you can use with it is 40 points. In other words, it would cost you 40 points to buy off that limitation. So by reasoning you can say the staff is worth 40 points, but down to 20 because it's an OAF (-1). So buy the staff seperately as a 20-point OAF -- similar to the way you'd buy a Naked Advantage through a Focus.

 

Note: that's not 20 points or 40 points of Aid or anything else -- it's the points necessary to "buy off" the Limitation, because when you have the staff you don't have the Limitation.

[Lucius]

Quick Multipower Question

 

If Hero Designer won't let you do what you want to do, why use it? I thought the whole point of Hero System is to get a system that lets you do exactly what you want to do.

 

One solution that comes to me is to buy the slots at 100, buy the reserve only up to 80 pts, and buy another 40 pts of reserve on the focus. If Hero Digester doesn't like it, try labeling the 40 pts a "custom power" or something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says to watch out....Lucius Alexander is posting in his sleep...

 

pps (post palindromedary stuff) - in fact, isn't that what Dr. Anomaly was saying?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Okay, try this:

 

120 points with a -1/2 Limitation is 80 points. (Forgetting any other modifiers for now).

 

So take the 120 point multipower with the -1/2 Limitation "Only up to 2/3 maximum power without staff". (And of course this Lim will have to apply to each slot as well.)

 

I would never allow this as a -1/2 limitation. Why not? Because an 80 point Multipower which never has a reserve greater than 80 points costs 80 points.

A Multipower that always has an 80 point reserve, and can sometimes have a greater reserve, should logically cost more.

 

I would instead allow the "partially limited multipower" approach. Pay for an 80 point reserve, and then buy +40 points with OAF Staff (both also having whatever other limitations may apply).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

If Hero Designer won't let you do what you want to do' date=' why use it? I thought the whole point of Hero System is to get a system that lets you do exactly what you want to do.[/quote']

 

rep'ed. Hero Designer should conform to the rules, not the other way around. It's a tool to make character creation easier. if it's actually making it tougher, why use it?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

rep'ed. Hero Designer should conform to the rules' date=' not the other way around. It's a tool to make character creation easier. if it's actually making it tougher, why use it?[/quote']

That's not what Lucius said; if it is rules-legal, then yes it should let you do it; if it's forbidden by the rules, no it shouldn't.

 

And besides...HD is now up to V3; V1 isn't supported any longer (hasn't been for a while now) and is no longer "official".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

That's not what Lucius said; if it is rules-legal' date=' then yes it should let you do it; if it's forbidden by the rules, no it shouldn't.[/quote']

 

Nothing which the GM approves is prohibited by the rules, and nothing the GM prohibits is permitted by the rules. That's Rule 1.

 

Anyone remember all the HD complaints when Turakian Age was released, and spells cost 1/3 their usual cost. HD couldn't handle the "house rules" for the setting. HD was modified to accomodate this house rule so it would again be useful to Turakian Age players and GM's.

 

To repeat, HD is a tool to make it easier to play your game. If it's not making it easier, don't use it.

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Nothing which the GM approves is prohibited by the rules, and nothing the GM prohibits is permitted by the rules. That's Rule 1.

 

Anyone remember all the HD complaints when Turakian Age was released, and spells cost 1/3 their usual cost. HD couldn't handle the "house rules" for the setting. HD was modified to accomodate this house rule so it would again be useful to Turakian Age players and GM's.

 

To repeat, HD is a tool to make it easier to play your game. If it's not making it easier, don't use it.

 

Exactly, and to the point! Repped!

 

Oh, and not having tried v3, I couldn't say whether this could be done at the current time, or not.

 

However, any tool has its limits. What HD does well, it does exceedingly well... what it doesn't... well... I see this as a design decision... something that was not implemented because the costs probably outweighed the benefits.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Nothing which the GM approves is prohibited by the rules, and nothing the GM prohibits is permitted by the rules. That's Rule 1.

 

Anyone remember all the HD complaints when Turakian Age was released, and spells cost 1/3 their usual cost. HD couldn't handle the "house rules" for the setting. HD was modified to accomodate this house rule so it would again be useful to Turakian Age players and GM's.

 

To repeat, HD is a tool to make it easier to play your game. If it's not making it easier, don't use it.

True. But the official rules are what HD are supposed to enforce...as both Dan and Steve have made clear on multiple occassions. If a GM approves a way of doing something that's directly counter to the official approved way of doing it, it's far from fair to blame HD for not supporting it.

 

In the case of Turakian Age, that was an official way of doing things, that had to be implemented. A GM deciding something at home is not an official ruling.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

I haven't read over everyone's replies, but I'd say just buy the difference in the Reserve and any slots over 80 Active Points with the appropriate Focus Limitation (any any other Limitations that might apply to using the staff: Extra Time, Gestures, whatever).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

according to Dan's post here this is a 5ER rule (see link for page reference), not just HDesigner rule.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=708243&postcount=6

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

True. But the official rules are what HD are supposed to enforce...as both Dan and Steve have made clear on multiple occassions. If a GM approves a way of doing something that's directly counter to the official approved way of doing it' date=' it's far from fair to blame HD for not supporting it.[/quote']

 

I don't consider this an issue of "blame". HD doesn't have any obligation to me. I consider it simple consumerism. The product is intended to make it easier to put your characters together. My wife loves it, because it makes it easier for her. I don't use it, because it doesn't make it easier for me. Simple consumerism says if it doesn't serve your needs, don't buy it.

 

If there's a huge untapped market out there that Dan could easily attract by changing something pretty simple in HD, I expect he would do it. More likely, there are hundreds of different house rules and combinations, and he'd have to spend hours customizing the SW for each one - clearly not worth it to him.

 

I suspect, if I wanted to use it, I could make HD do what I want it to do. What I've seen when my wife uses it indicates it's very flexible. I believe there are some areas where it effectively comes out and says "this isn't boook legal - better check with your GM". To me, that's better than preventing the option.

 

But I'm getting a satisfactory result now using my excel spreadsheet so, for me, it's not worth the effort of learning HD.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

If there's a huge untapped market out there that Dan could easily attract by changing something pretty simple in HD' date=' I expect he would do it. More likely, there are hundreds of different house rules and combinations, and he'd have to spend hours customizing the SW for each one - clearly not worth it to him.[/quote']

Actually, Dan's pointed out on a number of occassions he doesn't do things like that because that's not what the software is supposed to do, as specified by the people who commissioned him to create it -- HERO Games / Steve Long in particular. He doesn't make changes like that because Steve doesn't want them made. If you think it should have options to ignore the official rules, Dan says take it up with Steve, not with him.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

Actually' date=' Dan's pointed out on a number of occassions he doesn't do things like that because that's not what the software is [i']supposed[/i] to do, as specified by the people who commissioned him to create it -- HERO Games / Steve Long in particular. He doesn't make changes like that because Steve doesn't want them made. If you think it should have options to ignore the official rules, Dan says take it up with Steve, not with him.

 

I suspect Dan's not losing a lot of sales as a consequence. If he could double his sales overnight by allowing the SW to override the official rules, he might be a bit more inclined to take it up with Steve himself. But I doubt such a change would enhance sales much, if at all. And there's some benefit to the GM in knowing that HD character can't be created in violation of the rules, so he might lose some sales as well.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

I suspect Dan's not losing a lot of sales as a consequence. If he could double his sales overnight by allowing the SW to override the official rules' date=' he might be a bit more inclined to take it up with Steve himself. But I doubt such a change would enhance sales much, if at all. And there's some benefit to the GM in knowing that HD character can't be created in violation of the rules, so he might lose some sales as well.[/quote']

(shrug)

 

I'm sure that if Dan felt it would net a substantial increase in sales, and a cost-benefit analysis showed it would be worthwhile to do, he would approach Steve about it. So he probably doesn't think/feel that way.

 

That just brings us back around to "HeroDesigner doesn't do it that way not because Dan refuses to change it; HD doesn't do it that way because the person who paid Dan to create this customized software doesn't want it to do that. Dan's not "at fault"; he's doing what his contract specified. HeroDesigner's not "at fault" for not letting you do anything you want, if that 'anything' contravenes official rules/rulings. If that means HD isn't for you, fine...but don't try and hold this up as an example of the shortcomings or failings of HeroDesigner."

 

After all, I don't get annoyed because a car I bought to use as a car, and that was advertised as a car, can't be made to act like a boat.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quick Multipower Question

 

I want a carboat.

 

http://www.lakenorman.com/images/sponsorPages/3535/CarBoat.jpg