Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine I believe the TK route would be the best course to follow. unless you are playing a massively large point total game you would never be able to achieve "realistically" the effect. as such, we need to keep it simple and work with what we have...in this case, TK does the job the best. ...and on a side note, If I have tk it will pull an object equally fast whether it is 1lb or 1,000lbs. the system is not that specific regarding wielding heavy objects. you could apply standard acceleration rules but this would apply across the board equally. if I understand the logic as presented it you would have the following: Brick throwing Baseball: hits that segment Brick throwing Tank: hits at some later time because it is slower??? seems a bit off, eh.... also, while "real" science definately has its place I wonder if we sometimes try to go too far with it in regards to a comic book based game. somethings should be allowed for game play ease. ...but then who am I but some schmuck off the street. Well... TK and str have a throwing distance based on mass. See 5E pge22 for throwing distance. The lighter the object the farther it goes. Which is the problem with using TK to model gravity. An idea I had was to use something like: TK explossion at Str 40 with -1/2 does not affect objects heavier thatn 800 KG and -1/2 affects objects lighter than 800 KG as if they were 800 KG for throwing distance. Thus all affected objects are moved equally and you can just say that objects heavier than 800KG disrupt the artificial gravity field and thus are not affected. Add only to pull objects inwards and instant etc. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 indeed...the distance "thrown" is based off the weight of the object but not the speed and the time it takes to reach the point of impact. in this case, we are talking about a small area of effect that has TK Explosion. the explosion represents the "pull" getting lesser as you move away from the singularity itself....given the explosion advantage this would take care of the overall strength getting weaker and not being able to move larger objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine indeed...the distance "thrown" is based off the weight of the object but not the speed and the time it takes to reach the point of impact. in this case, we are talking about a small area of effect that has TK Explosion. the explosion represents the "pull" getting lesser as you move away from the singularity itself....given the explosion advantage this would take care of the overall strength getting weaker and not being able to move larger objects. Larger is not always heavier. Heavier is not always larger. So a very heavy object could be very close to the centre and still not be movable by a TK. The trick is to make the TK affect all objects (that it can affect) equally regardless of mass and density. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenKimball Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Teleportation, Must Pass Through Intervening Space, Only To Move To Point Of Origin, Explosion? Mind you, I didn't actually look any of that up. Just a random thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by BenKimball Teleportation, Must Pass Through Intervening Space, Only To Move To Point Of Origin, Explosion? Mind you, I didn't actually look any of that up. Just a random thought. Interesting. I was going to say that doesn't explain how things take damage but there are rules for teleporing into things on 5E 240. And there is no defence against the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 reading in to far...I understand that larger does not mean heavier. I actually refered to weight at the beginning of the post, my bad for using the word large...I thought it was inferred that we were speaking about overall weight and not size.... as far as moving objects... what happens to the small singularity is next to a larger one? my point being that there are things that can defy it's pull power. weight of an object would be a factor and since we are talknig a tiny one I would assume that it's drawing power would also be reduced. as such, there would be things that it cannot effect. in addition, as one moves away from the object the gravitation pull would lessen per normal physics. as such, the explosion works great for this effect. this leaves us a tiny singularity that has amazing drawing strength but due to the split second duration only has an effective strength to pull certain objects dependant on weight. this "pull" lessens the further one moves away from the point of origin that the singularity was at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenKimball Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 (After busting out the books...) There is that rule forbidding deliberate teleportation of targets into objects, even with UAA, though. Of course the GM would decide if it were "deliberate," but it sounds like it would be in this case. I'm still interested in trying to build it with TP, though. Cheers, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine reading in to far...I understand that larger does not mean heavier. I actually refered to weight at the beginning of the post, my bad for using the word large...I thought it was inferred that we were speaking about overall weight and not size.... as far as moving objects... what happens to the small singularity is next to a larger one? my point being that there are things that can defy it's pull power. weight of an object would be a factor and since we are talknig a tiny one I would assume that it's drawing power would also be reduced. as such, there would be things that it cannot effect. in addition, as one moves away from the object the gravitation pull would lessen per normal physics. as such, the explosion works great for this effect. this leaves us a tiny singularity that has amazing drawing strength but due to the split second duration only has an effective strength to pull certain objects dependant on weight. this "pull" lessens the further one moves away from the point of origin that the singularity was at. Except that the pull doesn't depend on weight. It only depends on the distance from the center of gravity of the target. If 2 singularities were near each other, each would be pulled toward the other, with the lighter singularity being pulled faster. Even if a tiny singularity that has enough pull to be felt at 1-8", has enough mass that TK isn't the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 why does the strength of the pull depend only on distance? what happens when one moves away, does the pull lessen? if so, sounds like TK Explosion. as far as to the relative strength of a singularity...given a 350pt character with a 60 active point cap you could never do it. one would have to be playing a no limit game in my opinion to truly get close to simulating one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine reading in to far...I understand that larger does not mean heavier. I actually refered to weight at the beginning of the post, my bad for using the word large...I thought it was inferred that we were speaking about overall weight and not size.... Yeh, Size.. Weight.. It's and easy thing to miss-state. Originally posted by white peregrine as far as moving objects... what happens to the small singularity is next to a larger one? [/b] A small singularity pulls on a large singularity just as well as it does any other object. The large singularity exerts more force than the small one so it seems to be resistant to the small singularity because the small one accelerates faster. But the large singularity accelerates at the same rate as any other object at the same distance from the small singularity. (discounting any possible spacetime distortions of course) Originally posted by white peregrine my point being that there are things that can defy it's pull power. weight of an object would be a factor and since we are talknig a tiny one I would assume that it's drawing power would also be reduced. as such, there would be things that it cannot effect. in addition, as one moves away from the object the gravitation pull would lessen per normal physics. as such, the explosion works great for this effect. this leaves us a tiny singularity that has amazing drawing strength but due to the split second duration only has an effective strength to pull certain objects dependant on weight. this "pull" lessens the further one moves away from the point of origin that the singularity was at. [/b] I think everyone agrees that some kind of explosion variant is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 so we agree explosion but not the base power? why don't you agree with TK (only to pull objects to center hex)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine why does the strength of the pull depend only on distance? what happens when one moves away, does the pull lessen? if so, sounds like TK Explosion. as far as to the relative strength of a singularity...given a 350pt character with a 60 active point cap you could never do it. one would have to be playing a no limit game in my opinion to truly get close to simulating one... The equation is F = G*(M1)*(M2)/ d^2 where F is force exertec, G is a constant, M1 is the mass of the singularity, M2 is the mass of the target, and d is the distance from the singularity to the center of gravity of the target. As you can see, as the mass of the target increases, so does the force exerted, on a proportional basis. IE the singularity would exert roughly 500 times the force on a 50 ton tank as it does on a 100 kg human. Thus it accelerates the tank just as fast as it does the man. The only thing that matters is the distance to the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine why does the strength of the pull depend only on distance? what happens when one moves away, does the pull lessen? if so, sounds like TK Explosion. as far as to the relative strength of a singularity...given a 350pt character with a 60 active point cap you could never do it. one would have to be playing a no limit game in my opinion to truly get close to simulating one... Gravity doesn't care about your movement. It just attracts. It works by imparting an acceleration. If you are moving away it pulls the same but has to work against you movement away before beginning to pull you inwards. The falling rules are a fairly good aproximation of how gravity works but simplified to fit a stop action role playing game. The TK Explosion is a fairly close match IMHO. An active point cap makes it difficult to make such a power effective on any meaningful scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Gary The equation is F = G*(M1)*(M2)/ d^2 where F is force exertec, G is a constant, M1 is the mass of the singularity, M2 is the mass of the target, and d is the distance from the singularity to the center of gravity of the target. As you can see, as the mass of the target increases, so does the force exerted, on a proportional basis. IE the singularity would exert roughly 500 times the force on a 50 ton tank as it does on a 100 kg human. Thus it accelerates the tank just as fast as it does the man. The only thing that matters is the distance to the target. is the force exerted the same if tank was either 10ft or 100ft away? if not, then the weight of the object can "resist" the pull. written by Blue Angel Gravity doesn't care about your movement. It just attracts. It works by imparting an acceleration. If you are moving away it pulls the same but has to work against you movement away before beginning to pull you inwards. The falling rules are a fairly good aproximation of how gravity works but simplified to fit a stop action role playing game and not just any stop action game either. also, I think people loose site that it is a "comic" based game so some suspension of belief has to be maintained. it's fun to talk physics (yawn), but it gets in the way when used to much, imo. it's a comic, go with the flow ~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine is the force exerted the same if tank was either 10ft or 100ft away? if not, then the weight of the object can "resist" the pull. As pointed out already, the distance to the object is the only thing that matters. The singularity will accelerate a 1 kg paperweight just as fast as a 50,000 kg tank if they are the same distance away. Of course the force exerted is less for an object 100 ft away as opposed to 10 ft away. However, this just proves that distance is what matters, not weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 yes, I saw that... Of course the force exerted is less for an object 100 ft away as opposed to 10 ft away. However, this just proves that distance is what matters, not weight so given your own words, one could infer that the "pull" can be resisted. if the object is just sitting there then it is resisting with its weight. this means that the strength of the tk would represent the upper limits for the given range items that can be pulled into the center hex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine yes, I saw that... so given your own words, one could infer that the "pull" can be resisted. if the object is just sitting there then it is resisting with its weight. this means that the strength of the tk would represent the upper limits for the given range items that can be pulled into the center hex. It is not resisting with its weight. I don't quite see how you got that with my statement. The singularity would pull a tank or battleship in exactly as easily as it would a paperweight or human, assuming all objects were the same distance away. It will pull a tank from 10 ft away, faster than a paperweight from 15 ft away. Weight has nothing to do with how fast the object is pulled in. Only distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 you mentioned that the "pull" lessens with distance. is this correct? can this "pull" be resisted? how does an object resist the pull at any given distance? going with the game mechanics your choice to simulate this power would be what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine you mentioned that the "pull" lessens with distance. is this correct? can this "pull" be resisted? how does an object resist the pull at any given distance? going with the game mechanics your choice to simulate this power would be what? The pull lessens with distance per the inverse square law. Two times distance = 1/4 as much acceratiom. Three times distance = 1/9 as much acceleration etc. You resist gravity by expending energy to create as much force as it is exerting on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by white peregrine you mentioned that the "pull" lessens with distance. is this correct? Yes. Something twice as far away would have 1/4 the "pull". Originally posted by white peregrine can this "pull" be resisted? how does an object resist the pull at any given distance? It can be resisted the same way as an object falling would resist the pull. The reason there isn't a massive fall off of force for an object falling toward the earth is that we are already roughly 4000 miles away from Earth's center of gravity. An object 100 feet in the air has less force exerted upon it than an object on the ground, but not appreciably so. Originally posted by white peregrine going with the game mechanics your choice to simulate this power would be what? The flight usable as an attack with appropriate tweaks, probably works best. Other possibilities are a humongous change environment, or a transform of all objects in the area to the same objects with a velocity toward the singularity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Yes. Something twice as far away would have 1/4 the "pull". It can be resisted the same way as an object falling would resist the pull. The reason there isn't a massive fall off of force for an object falling toward the earth is that we are already roughly 4000 miles away from Earth's center of gravity. An object 100 feet in the air has less force exerted upon it than an object on the ground, but not appreciably so. The flight usable as an attack with appropriate tweaks, probably works best. Other possibilities are a humongous change environment, or a transform of all objects in the area to the same objects with a velocity toward the singularity. I know lets leave the objects alone and just transform space time in the area to make it attract things at an equal rate regardless of mass and obeying the inverse square law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Blue Angel I know lets leave the objects alone and just transform space time in the area to make it attract things at an equal rate regardless of mass and obeying the inverse square law. How much Body does Space Time have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Gary How much Body does Space Time have? Well it has no mass of it's own so say 1 body per hex. Times two hexes per +1 body. Of course gravity has no maximum range so each aplication of the power would have to affect the entire universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 "Hey Mr. GM, is the universe concave, convex or flat in this campaign?" -__- According to Star Hero, the Earth has 96 BODY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted June 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 I've tried no less than five different models for this power now. The ones that best simulate the effect turn out to be the most cost prohibitive. Therefore I'm going to have to live with the imperfect ones, unless I decide this character I'm making is some kind of cosmic villain. Hmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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