Quantum Singularity

[Blue]

Here's the effect I'm looking at. Tell me if I'm in the ballpark on the mechanics employed.

 

The character has the ability to manifest, for just the briefest of split seconds, a quantum singularity. The gravitational effects cause things in a radius around it to be sucked in toward it. But since the singularity blinks out almost instantly, it's just a matter of their momentum carrying them toward the center hex and possibly colliding with other things that were within reach.

 

Make any sense? Not sure if I did.

 

I'm thinking TK with an Explosion effect. The TK only grabs things and throws them toward the middle hex. Of course if there's nothing there to collide with they'd simply pass through to the othr side. If two heroes/villains went toward the middle they'd collide and *wham*.

[theltemes]

If you create the singularity which isn't in a vacuum, you are going to get a burst of X-rays as air molecules get trapped by the singularity. Even if it's only around for a fraction of a second, it would probably put out a considerable radiation dose.

[Blue]

Not sure my players would know that, but useful information. And another possible effect for a slot in an EC. Thanks.

[Dino]

Don't forget the massive penetrating RKA that affects whatever is in the target hex.

[Gary]

Telekinesis won't work unless you have an obscene number of points. A 50 ton tank should be pulled in just as quickly as a 1 kg paperweight. With TK, the paperweight is going to be pulled in a lot quicker.

[Blue]

Hmmm. I don't see away around that. But then there's no chance I'd bother rolling damage for a man and a paper clip colliding at the core. But I see your point. I might do damage between a man and a mailbox or a dog and a car.

[Fireg0lem]

If the problem pointed out (that everything should move with the same speed) is too much of a problem for you to use TK, you could also build this effect as Energy Blast, Double Knockback, Area of Effect (radius), Indirect, Only to do Knockback. Clunkier, but everything that lacks KbR goes the same distance.

[Blue]

I was considering an "only for knockback effect", but I'm still leaning toward the TK. I might have to build both effects and test for results. Thanks.

[Lord Liaden]

One of the spells from Second Edition Fantasy Hero had a very similar effect bought as an AoE TK: magnetising the target's armor and metal items so that they draw all nearby metal objects toward the target. IIRC "Only to pull toward target" was a -1 Lim on TK.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

If the problem pointed out (that everything should move with the same speed) is too much of a problem for you to use TK, you could also build this effect as Energy Blast, Double Knockback, Area of Effect (radius), Indirect, Only to do Knockback. Clunkier, but everything that lacks KbR goes the same distance.

 

The trouble is that most stuff has KbR, or extra Kb. Only stuff roughly 75kg -150kg would move at the same speed. Anything heavier or lighter will move slower or faster.

[Zaratustra]

Telekinesis, Explosive, Only towards center.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Gary

The trouble is that most stuff has KbR, or extra Kb. Only stuff roughly 75kg -150kg would move at the same speed. Anything heavier or lighter will move slower or faster.

Since a quatum singularity creates the attraction by force of gravity, I'd just state that the special effect is that all things "fall" towards it at the same speed, and hence do the same basic damage.

 

Besides, as far as damage is concerned the effect would be a wash. ITRW lighter objects both do less damage and take less damage when they impact from falls. That's why squirrels can survive 40 foot falls and elephants can die from a 5 foot one.

 

HERO doesn't really calculate damage differentials for weight, or Move Throughs by characters with Density Increase would be absolutely staggering in their effect. Can you imagine a 25" Move Through by a super that weighs 800 tonnes?

[Blue]

All very helpful, thanks. Especially the -1 "Only to pull towards target". This not going to be that high a limitation, because I think "pull" is too gentle a word for what is happening with my effect. But this gives me a measuring stick to guage by.

[BNakagawa]

Dispel: Knockback Resistance, does knockback, double knockback, indirect (to redirect knockback inwards) area effect radius.

 

Whee...

[Blue Angel]

How about flight usable as an attack AOE explosion, and Only to pull objects towards centre. Gravitar has a power bought as flight usable attack in an area effect. With this method the mass of the target doesn't matter. And don't forget to apply the intant limitation.

[BNakagawa]

It's OK, but you have to define a common defense or set of defenses that negate the flight bought as attack.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

It's OK, but you have to define a common defense or set of defenses that negate the flight bought as attack.

 

Making the power instantaneous greatly reduces the value of usable on others. As a GM I might ignore that rule due to this limitation. The Usable as an attack is just not nearly as powerful if it is instant and has such a limited set effect. IMHO...

 

Besides it says reasonable common. Many NND powers define a defence that is not really common. I think if you defined the defences as say... Gravitic Powers, Dimensional Powers and teleportation. It could make sense that those powers would negate it.

[Snarf]

Couldn't they defend themselves just by grabbing onto something and holding tight?

[Blue]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

How about flight usable as an attack AOE explosion, and Only to pull objects towards centre. Gravitar has a power bought as flight usable attack in an area effect. With this method the mass of the target doesn't matter. And don't forget to apply the intant limitation.

Has real possibilities. It's sounding on the pricy side, so I'll have to do a cost comparison and perhaps live with the slight imperfection of the TK effect, but we'll see.

 

As usual, you guys manage to come up with at least two more ideas that I missed.

[dbsousa]

This is how I would build it...

 

Cost	Power	END
75	Singularity: Telekinesis (50 STR), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; +1) (150 Active Points); Only To Pull Objects toward point of origin (-1)	15

Powers Cost: 75

[Gary]

The 50 str TK won't work because its effectiveness depends on the mass of the target object, which real gravity doesn't. A tank would be too heavy for the TK, but would be trivial for a true singularity to pull.

 

Flight usable as an attack has more promise, but the problem is that gravity follows the inverse square law. Doubling the distance from the singularity would result in 1/4 the effective gravity.

 

IOW, if the singularity had enough "pull" to generate 1G at 4", it would generate 4G at 2", 16G at 1", and 64G at 1 meter. It would be pretty much impossible to generate this effect in champions terms.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Gary

The 50 str TK won't work because its effectiveness depends on the mass of the target object, which real gravity doesn't. A tank would be too heavy for the TK, but would be trivial for a true singularity to pull.

 

Flight usable as an attack has more promise, but the problem is that gravity follows the inverse square law. Doubling the distance from the singularity would result in 1/4 the effective gravity.

 

IOW, if the singularity had enough "pull" to generate 1G at 4", it would generate 4G at 2", 16G at 1", and 64G at 1 meter. It would be pretty much impossible to generate this effect in champions terms.

 

Good point... So build it as an AOE explosion at the strength desired at 1" and apply a new modifier, exponential decay. Since it decays much faster than a normal explosion it should be a fairly good limitation.

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Good point... So build it as an AOE explosion at the strength desired at 1" and apply a new modifier, exponential decay. Since it decays much faster than a normal explosion it should be a fairly good limitation.

 

Maybe not. You have to remember that in HERO system, every 5 points is supposed to represent a doubling of effective power. Hence, a standard explosion is already "exponential decay" in a sense. Since with a standard explosion, you lose 1d6/hex, and most times 1d6 means 5 active points, then you could conclude that every hex away is only half as effective as the hex before. No need for a further reduction.

 

And don't forget, every 5 points of TK can lift twice as much as before, so the "G-force effect" wouldn't be hard to simulate at all with TK explosion.

 

I wouldn't let all this "singularity effects everything the same" worry you too much. As the GM, only you get to decide exactly how the effect works. I mean think about it! If you really WERE going to open a singularity in Earth's atmosphere only meters from the ground, the last thing you'd have to worry about would be how much damage it does to someone only 50 feet away. I'd be more worried about whether or not the sudden gravitational effect was enough to crack the planet in two and send it spinning out of orbit!

 

Keep it simple. Don't make yourself crazy using realistic science to judge an impossible feat. I say go with the TK explosion. Either that or throw active points out the window and make it 1000 STR TK Area of Effect Radius. That should scare some people!

 

Just a thought, or 5,

Steve

[Gary]

Originally posted by Xandarr

Maybe not. You have to remember that in HERO system, every 5 points is supposed to represent a doubling of effective power. Hence, a standard explosion is already "exponential decay" in a sense. Since with a standard explosion, you lose 1d6/hex, and most times 1d6 means 5 active points, then you could conclude that every hex away is only half as effective as the hex before. No need for a further reduction.

 

And don't forget, every 5 points of TK can lift twice as much as before, so the "G-force effect" wouldn't be hard to simulate at all with TK explosion.

 

I wouldn't let all this "singularity effects everything the same" worry you too much. As the GM, only you get to decide exactly how the effect works. I mean think about it! If you really WERE going to open a singularity in Earth's atmosphere only meters from the ground, the last thing you'd have to worry about would be how much damage it does to someone only 50 feet away. I'd be more worried about whether or not the sudden gravitational effect was enough to crack the planet in two and send it spinning out of orbit!

 

Keep it simple. Don't make yourself crazy using realistic science to judge an impossible feat. I say go with the TK explosion. Either that or throw active points out the window and make it 1000 STR TK Area of Effect Radius. That should scare some people!

 

Just a thought, or 5,

Steve

 

Nah, a singularity that only produces 1G up to 4" away wouldn't have nearly enough mass to crack the earth or cause serious harm. The only reason that it would have any real effect on things is if those things are very close. Since the Earth's center of gravity is 4000 miles away from the singularity, the force on the earth itself is minimal.

 

There should be a limitation though, that the singularity can't form within 1" of a target, to avoid some extremely messy problems.

[Guest white peregrine]

I believe the TK route would be the best course to follow. unless you are playing a massively large point total game you would never be able to achieve "realistically" the effect. as such, we need to keep it simple and work with what we have...in this case, TK does the job the best.

 

...and on a side note, If I have tk it will pull an object equally fast whether it is 1lb or 1,000lbs. the system is not that specific regarding wielding heavy objects. you could apply standard acceleration rules but this would apply across the board equally. if I understand the logic as presented it you would have the following:

Brick throwing Baseball: hits that segment

Brick throwing Tank: hits at some later time because it is slower???

 

seems a bit off, eh....

 

also, while "real" science definately has its place I wonder if we sometimes try to go too far with it in regards to a comic book based game. somethings should be allowed for game play ease.

 

...but then who am I but some schmuck off the street.