Thrown non-killing weapon

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

This may well be another good reason to increase the cost of Str to 2 per point' date=' an idea to which I am usually pretty indifferent.[/quote']

 

I disagree. Raising the cost of STR would completely kill the balance between attack powers. It's the entire concept of HA that can't be accurately modelled in the game without severely wacking out the rules surroundng it (which has been done, and as a result we have a kinda of balanced mechanic that doesn't act like any others).

[Tom Carman]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

 

The official, completely rules legal method to do what you want, is the Multipower idea you mentioned. Actually, in just about every published write-up I've seen this is the method used for the effect you are describing.

 

Personally, I just say screw-it and put Ranged on HA and work from there. It seems to be how weapons are built (in the Weapons section of of the rulebook).

I just dug up my PDF of 4th Edition (I'm at work) to check the weapons section; Melee weapons can be built with a "Can be Thrown" Advantage of +1/2 ... which incidently is also the value of Ranged. There were no definitions of how "Can be Thrown" is supposed to work either. The section on Limitations uses a thrown hammer as the example for "Reduced by Range".

 

Unless FReD has some rules contradicting it, I would suggest "Ranged" or "Can be Thrown" for a Thor-type returning hammer, plus "Reduced by Range" if your conception includes damage as well as accuracy being reduced at range.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

 

Unless FReD has some rules contradicting it, I would suggest "Ranged" or "Can be Thrown" for a Thor-type returning hammer

 

Unfortunately FReD has exactly that - a rule saying you shouldn't put ranged advantages on HA.

 

-Nate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

this issue actually falls under the arena of supers vs. heroic rules

 

supers have to pay for everything (Batman's utility belt that might have an otherwise mundane flashlight has to be paid for in points somehow).

 

heroic characters only have to have the skill to use, the money to buy or luck to aquire equipmnt.

 

The Ultimate Brick furthers this divide by suggesting that traditional super-bricks who regularly throw objects of opportunity in combat should pay for this ability above and beyond their normally high STR. EB with limitations is the way this is done. Sure, any super-brick can do it once in awhile but there are lots of minuses to OCV and it is basically a type of Power Trick on his STR. Not that much different than the EBlaster with Flame powers who wants to set something on fire but doesn't yet have a multipower slot with the Uncontrolled advantage. He can attempt to Power Trick it but if he wants to do it reliably all the time he needs to buy another slot.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I'm all for paying for it, the problem is that there's no way to make the power as the rules currently stand. The one way that makes most sense - HA with range based on strength, is explicitly disallowed. There's no way to make an EB that allows you to add your strength to the damage it does. Above I made a suggestion for a house ruled advantage that does allow you to add your strength, but it's just that - a house rule.

 

The kludgy "buy a big EB and limit it" kinda works, but has a lot of drawbacks, and is way more expensive than it really needs to be.

 

-Nate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I'm all for paying for it, the problem is that there's no way to make the power as the rules currently stand. The one way that makes most sense - HA with range based on strength, is explicitly disallowed. There's no way to make an EB that allows you to add your strength to the damage it does. Above I made a suggestion for a house ruled advantage that does allow you to add your strength, but it's just that - a house rule.

 

The kludgy "buy a big EB and limit it" kinda works, but has a lot of drawbacks, and is way more expensive than it really needs to be.

 

-Nate

What do you mean by 'add your strength to the damage it does' when buying it as an EB?

 

The point of using EB to model the damage is that you pay for whatever amount of damage you would otherwise do with your STR. There is no 'adding more' (for free) after the fact. I think Gadgets & Gear has a build for something like Thor's Hammer that is done this way. The only house rule required is whenever the character gets an AID to STR that it applies to this form of EB as well. When the weapon is not being thrown it uses the standard HA rule. Build it with a multipower with 2 slots. Put Reduced End on the HA slot to even out the costs if you like.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Unfortunately FReD has exactly that - a rule saying you shouldn't put ranged advantages on HA.

 

-Nate

A rule that Steve Long himself breaks in the Ultimate Martial Artist with some weapon builds (normal damage weapons built with HA, and applying Ranged to make them throwable). I'd say you are more than justified in following his lead, so long as what you are stating out is a weapon of some kind (which it is).

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

What do you mean by 'add your strength to the damage it does' when buying it as an EB?

 

What I mean is, I want there to be a non-house ruled non-fudged link between the damage this thrown weapon does, and my strength.

 

The point of using EB to model the damage is that you pay for whatever amount of damage you would otherwise do with your STR. There is no 'adding more' (for free) after the fact.

 

I realize that, which is exactly the problem, because that's the power I'm trying to model. Something that adds a fixed amount of damage to my strength. If you want me to pay for adding ranged to my strength when using the hammer, that's fine. But I want a non-fudged way to have the damage this thing does tied to my strength. It gets the bonuses of aids and the drawbacks of drains.

 

I think Gadgets & Gear has a build for something like Thor's Hammer that is done this way. The only house rule required is whenever the character gets an AID to STR that it applies to this form of EB as well. When the weapon is not being thrown it uses the standard HA rule. Build it with a multipower with 2 slots. Put Reduced End on the HA slot to even out the costs if you like.

 

Let's see... the character I'm working with has 40 strength and wanted a 4d6 weapon. That's 12d6, 4 of which costs no end. So that's 70 active points, OAF makes it 35 points for the multipower and 5-ish for the two powers. 40 points.

 

As you said, it takes a house rule to allow modifiers to the user's strength to modify the EB... .

 

Compare to HKA, which can have ranged added on...

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (4d6 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4)

23 real points.

 

Now, you can only double the damage of an HKA with strength, so I had to buy a little more to do the same number of DCs, but still, that's nearly a 50% savings over the EB construct.

 

-Nate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (4d6 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4)

23 real points.

 

Range Based On STR means the STR that would otherwise be increasing the HTH damage of this weapon is being used convert it into a ranged attack. When thrown it would only do 2d6 Killing. If you want it to do 4d6 Killing at range you must buy the full +1/2 Ranged advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (4d6 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4)

23 real points.

 

Range Based On STR means the STR that would otherwise be increasing the HTH damage of this weapon is being used convert it into a ranged attack. When thrown it would only do 2d6 Killing. If you want it to do 4d6 Killing at range you must buy the full +1/2 Ranged advantage.

 

Is this version of Ranged Based On STR a new Advantage in 5ER? The only FREd reference I have to it is as a Limitation.

[Vurbal]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Is this version of Ranged Based On STR a new Advantage in 5ER? The only FREd reference I have to it is as a Limitation.

Yes. 5ER also lists it as a variation on the Ranged advantage with a reference to the limitation.

[Vurbal]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Range Based On STR means the STR that would otherwise be increasing the HTH damage of this weapon is being used convert it into a ranged attack. When thrown it would only do 2d6 Killing. If you want it to do 4d6 Killing at range you must buy the full +1/2 Ranged advantage.

I don't see where it says that at all. The description in 5ER doesn't mention anything about damage and since the example in the sidebar of the advantage is a throwing knife I think it would if that were the case.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (4d6 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4)

23 real points.

 

Range Based On STR means the STR that would otherwise be increasing the HTH damage of this weapon is being used convert it into a ranged attack. When thrown it would only do 2d6 Killing. If you want it to do 4d6 Killing at range you must buy the full +1/2 Ranged advantage.

 

Really? I didn't think it worked that way. I don't have my book with me, and I very rarely create characters with killing attacks, so I could easily be wrong. I do have access to Herodesigner, and it seems to allow strength to double the attack even with the advantage (I realize it's far from being perfect at following the rules, however).

 

Is this a special rule for HKAs (which I could totally see and just didn't know about)?

 

-Nate

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

One thing to keep in mind is that STR on any Advantaged HKA is prorated for the Advantages applied to it. For example, a simple 2d6 HKA can be doubled to 4d6 by applying 30 STR, but 2d6 HKA with Ranged (+1/2) would require 45 STR to double it.

 

This differs from HA, which isn't prorated for Advantages - you only calculate the increase from your base STR. At least that's the case up to double the base damage of the HA; if you want to go above that (only allowed in a superheroic game) your STR has to have the same Advantages as the HA.

[Vurbal]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Just about everyone I've ever played with has also used that rule for all HA attacks. It doesn't make any sense to me not to.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I think you're missing the point of the Range Based on STR (or maybe I am), what I think it really is:

 

HKA Ranged +1/2, Range based on STR -1/4 = Range Based on STR +1/4

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Just about everyone I've ever played with has also used that rule for all HA attacks. It doesn't make any sense to me not to.

 

If you mean pro-rating, I can certainly see your point. OTOH the current damage-adding structure for HA does distinguish it from STR with No Figured Characteristics, which it otherwise would cost the same as but be inferior to in the range of benefits it confers.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

One thing to keep in mind is that STR on any Advantaged HKA is prorated for the Advantages applied to it. For example, a simple 2d6 HKA can be doubled to 4d6 by applying 30 STR, but 2d6 HKA with Ranged (+1/2) would require 45 STR to double it.

 

This differs from HA, which isn't prorated for Advantages - you only calculate the increase from your base STR. At least that's the case up to double the base damage of the HA; if you want to go above that (only allowed in a superheroic game) your STR has to have the same Advantages as the HA.

 

That's a good point, and one I should incorporate into my build.

 

Let's see...

 

Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); OAF (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Beam (-1/4) (13 real points)

plus

Naked Modifier for 40 active points, Range Based On STR (+1/4) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1) (5 real points)

 

18 real points en total.

 

Seems fair to me.

 

-Nate

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I think you're missing the point of the Range Based on STR (or maybe I am), what I think it really is:

 

HKA Ranged +1/2, Range based on STR -1/4 = Range Based on STR +1/4

 

Conceptually true enough , although the former would require more Active Points, and perhaps more Endurance, than the latter.

 

However, the point seems to be a disputed distinction in how that +1/4 Advantage affects the addition of STR to the HKA damage.

[Vurbal]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

If you mean pro-rating' date=' I can certainly see your point. OTOH the current damage-adding structure for HA does distinguish it from STR with No Figured Characteristics, which it otherwise would cost the same as but be inferior to in the range of benefits it confers.[/quote']

I guess I can see that, but I still prefer pro-rating.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Hmm. What do people think of the idea of being able to add TK Strength to a Ranged Attack (like EB or RKA) in the same manner that you can add normal Str to a HTH Attack (provided the SFX make sense, of course)? You can already do a MPA with TK and whatever other Ranged Attack, but making them cumulative.... Just an idea.

[Vurbal]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Given the right SFX I would allow it. I can see using TK as extra propulsion for some ranged attacks.