Thrown non-killing weapon

[The Souljourner]

I want to model a Thor-like thrown hammer in a superheroic campaign that does fixed damage which adds to the user's strength. According to the rules, it looks like you're not supposed to put Ranged advantages on a hand to hand attack, but I can't figure out how to make a ranged attack that does more damage based on the user's strength.

 

Looking at killing attacks, it looks like the benefit of adding your strength to an attack is about equal to the benefit of having them be ranged (as that's the only difference between killing ranged and HTH attacks), making it about a +1/2.

 

I realize you can make a multipower (EB/HA) to represent the thrown portion and the HTH portion of the attack, but that's kludgy at best, since if your strength changes, it doesn't change the EB portion of the attack.

 

Really, what's so wrong with adding ranged to a hand to hand attack? If it were costed right, it shouldn't be a problem (in which case we probably wouldn't need EB at all).

 

-Nate

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Well, I suppose adding Ranged to a Power with the HA Limitation is kind of a contradiction in terms, since HA would change a ranged EB to one with No Range. Putting on the Ranged Advantage (+1/2), then Limiting it (-1/2), would give you a ranged EB which you can also add your STR damage to... for the same Real Points as a normal EB alone. That doesn't sound too balanced.

 

Wait, that gives me an idea. Let's look at the other Power construct you gave as an example, HKA with the Ranged Advantage. HKA is made up of the base Damage you buy for it, plus additional damage you can add with your Strength. With the Ranged Advantage you add a third component, the ability to do all that damage at range.

 

With a standard Energy Blast you already have two of those components, base Damage plus Range. How about adding the third via a Custom Advantage, "STR Adds To Damage?" Let's make it +1/2, the same as Ranged - I see that you came to the same conclusion as to how much that Advantage would be worth.

 

Now we have a construct based on EB with the same Active Points and same mechanics as a Ranged HKA of equal Damage Class. That seems fair and reasonable to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

LL has made an excellent suggestion. It's not one I use, but it seems fair and more or less balanced.

 

The official, completely rules legal method to do what you want, is the Multipower idea you mentioned. Actually, in just about every published write-up I've seen this is the method used for the effect you are describing.

 

Personally, I just say screw-it and put Ranged on HA and work from there. It seems to be how weapons are built (in the Weapons section of of the rulebook).

 

Another option is to buy that Multipower, one HA slot and one EB slot. Buy the EB partially Limited, with an amount equal to the value of the HA without Limitations, and the rest with a Based On STR (-1/2). Based On STR means the Limited value can only equal the current value of the character's STR. Buy this amount up to however much STR you see the character ever having (due to Growth, Density Increase, Aid, etc.). That way, when you have more STR, it does more damage, and when you have less STR, it does less damage. The value of Based On STR is just a suggestion, the value could be more or even less if the character is expected to have lots of ways to increase his STR or if he doesn't buy that much extra EB.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I've never really understood why you aren't allowed to put Ranged on an HA. It seems very equivalent to putting a Str-based Advantage on EB, putting Ranged on HKA, etc. The suggestion Steve made of using the thrown object rules and buying extra Str would seem to be even cheaper than this, for the same mechanics (uses a Limitation and no Advantage rather than very likely an Advantage and Limitation of equal magnitude for the HA solution: Ranged and the Hand Attack Limitation).

 

Lord Liaden's solution works too, but reverts to the EB being the base damage (which won't make for weapons in a heroic game but would be more limiting than either the Ranged HA solution or Steve's suggesting any other time; either for spell-type powers in a heroic game or a power in a superheroic game).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Of course, there's always the old solution of buying an EB that is twice as big as you want and putting a limitation Must be Matched by Str (-1) on half of it. Heh.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I've never really understood why you aren't allowed to put Ranged on an HA. It seems very equivalent to putting a Str-based Advantage on EB' date=' putting [i']Ranged[/i] on HKA, etc.

 

As I indicated in my previous post, AFAICT the Ranged Advantage and the HA Limitation effectively cancel each other out, leaving you with an attack with all the benefits of Energy Blast plus Hand-To-Hand Attack, for the same Real Points as Energy Blast alone. A STR-based Advantage on EB or Ranged on HKA significantly raises the Active/Real Points of both.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Of course' date=' there's always the old solution of buying an EB that is twice as big as you want and putting a limitation [i']Must be Matched by Str (-1)[/i] on half of it. Heh.

 

I've actually never seen that one before. Pretty clever, and probably book-legal.

 

Left unModified, though, the Endurance on that EB would be pretty ugly.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I think one of the main problems is that Hand to Hand Attack is undercosted. It's like an EB with no range (-1/2) but with a free May Add STR to Damage (+1/2). At least, that's how it seems to work on Killing Attacks. I think that's the reason why they don't want you to put ranged on it, because they know it is undercosted.

 

As for getting a limited EB, personally, I hate that construct. Buying "as much as you would ever need and then limit it" is impossible. How do you know how much you'd need? Maybe a friendly neighborhood Aid-based character comes along and hits you for +30 strength. The problem is that "only up to STR" really means "only up to STR, or the predetermined number I paid for, whichever is lower".

 

I really like the +1/2 advantage on EB, and I think it's pretty fair. It's more expensive than HA with range, but like I said, I think that's because HA is undercosted.

 

-Nate

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

a limited EB' date=' personally, I hate that construct. Buying "as much as you would ever need and then limit it" is impossible. How do you know how much you'd need? Maybe a friendly neighborhood Aid-based character comes along and hits you for +30 strength. The problem is that "only up to STR" really means "only up to STR, or the predetermined number I paid for, whichever is lower".[/quote']

 

Due to SFX alone, I'd allow the extra damage due to an unexpectedly Aided STR even if the Power wasn't bought with that many dice.

[JmOz]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

As I indicated in my previous post' date=' AFAICT the Ranged Advantage and the HA Limitation effectively cancel each other out, leaving you with an attack with all the benefits of Energy Blast plus Hand-To-Hand Attack, for the same Real Points as Energy Blast alone. A STR-based Advantage on EB or Ranged on HKA significantly raises the Active/Real Points of both.[/quote']

 

Except a few things to consider: The RHA (Ranged Hand Attack) will cost more endurance, have a higher active points cost (if you want to put it in a MP). I would also not allow it to be spread most likely (some F/X considerations here, but it would be the exception instead of the norm)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I think one of the main problems is that Hand to Hand Attack is undercosted. It's like an EB with no range (-1/2) but with a free May Add STR to Damage (+1/2). At least, that's how it seems to work on Killing Attacks. I think that's the reason why they don't want you to put ranged on it, because they know it is undercosted.

 

Hmm... interesting take on it. In a way the HA Limitation is rather like additional STR with No Figured Characteristics, but with somewhat different mechanics. However, that gets into the whole "cost of STR" debate, which I'd really prefer to avoid.

 

It does appear to me from the description of the HA Lim that the requirement of the user having to exert STR to use the HA damage, rather than being able to attack with it by itself, is considered another limiting factor, but I'm not sure that's enough to justify the cost break. If superheroic campaigns restricted the maximum HA damage to twice the base damage, as in heroic campaigns, that probably would be a sufficient limitation.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Except a few things to consider: The RHA (Ranged Hand Attack) will cost more endurance' date=' have a higher active points cost (if you want to put it in a MP). I would also not allow it to be spread most likely (some F/X considerations here, but it would be the exception instead of the norm)[/quote']

 

Definitely worth taking into account. I had thought of those, but I'm not convinced that they're enough of a balancing factor, although certainly YMMV. However, I was also trying to rationalize why Steve set it up that way - a bit of devil's advocate.

 

OTOH it does occur to me that this relates to Souljourner's point: that making HA a Limited form of STR or EB, rather than its own separate Power as in Fourth Edition, raises the Active Point and END costs relative to the Real Cost of the Power, which would count as balancing factors.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

HA has always been a bit off. It's less effictive than STR because it doesn't involve lifting, can't add to grabs, etc, but more effictive because if it's advantaged at all, those advantages apply to damage added to it automatically. At the same time it's more effective than a Limited EB (No Range) because you can add STR (and velocity, and maneuver, etc.) damage to it, something that can't be done with EB at all (well, maybe with Ranged Martial Arts and Haymaker, but that's it; never velocity). Then again, if the EB isn't limited to no Range, the EB can be bounced, be spread over a larger area, and is of course, ranged.

 

Among STR, EB and HA, only HA is the confusing one that changes how it works based on the situation and doesn't seem to fit. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to create an effictive mechanic for this without creating something that is either easily abused or overcosted.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Typically for that you'd use the Thrown Object rules (5ER 35) and then buy extra STR with some sort of Limitation like "Only To Increase Throwing Damage." You might also post your question on the "Discussion" board' date=' where anyone can answer, and see what suggestions you get.[/quote']

I guess this is really what I am having a problem with. Occasionally allowing an object to be thrown is one thing, but allowing it to be done reliably all the time is like getting a free Naked Range Based on Str (+1/4) Advantage on your Str itself (and you're not supposed to put Ranged on Str either; that's what TK is for, right?). Not only that, but it would be cheaper than a Ranged HA (I'm sure, "Only To Increase Throwing Damage," is going to be at least a -1/2, and there is no Ranged Advantage in this case to increase the Active Points).

[Checkmate]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I'm lazy and didn't read everything, but you could just use Stretching with some benefits.

[Tech]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I have someone who throws a boomerang from time to time. I used HA, usable at range. Yes, I could have bought it as an Energy Blast but EB doesn't give me the effect I want which is: if the hero gets his STR drained or for whatever reason, can't use his full STR, the boomerang simply won't hit for as much impact.

 

The paraphrase someone from a long time ago: The rules are there to help you have fun. If they get in the way, change them or don't use them.

 

Everyone in the campaign has absolutely no problem with me having HA at range because it fits.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Among STR' date=' EB and HA, only HA is the confusing one that changes how it works based on the situation and doesn't seem to fit. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to create an effictive mechanic for this without creating something that is either easily abused or overcosted.[/quote']

This may well be another good reason to increase the cost of Str to 2 per point, an idea to which I am usually pretty indifferent.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Here's another thought that crossed my mind: with HKA you're essentially turning Normal Damage from STR into Killing Damage, whereas with HA you're getting more Normal Damage. Since being able to do Killing Damage gives you another option in combat, that could be seen as more beneficial than what you get from HA.

 

Please note that I just came up with that and haven't thought through all the implications yet, so if you see a glaringly obvious logical flaw please don't eviscerate me over it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I'm lazy and didn't read everything' date=' but you could just use Stretching with some benefits.[/quote']

True, but that is going to get awfully expensive, even at typical throwing distances. If you want essentially a point blank attack only, I'd be okay with buying it that way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

How about HKA with Range Based On Str (+1/4) and Does Normal Damage (-0).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

How about HKA with Range Based On Str (+1/4) and Does Normal Damage (-0).

 

I owe you Rep for that one.

 

This does highlight one thing I've always said about HERO, or game systems in general: when you split hairs too finely looking for the perfect balance, the process starts to get kinda goofy.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

This is what I came up with for Stretching, it really isn't all that expensive, the final real cost was 32points (87 active):

 

Stretching 10", Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Range Based on STR (-1/4)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

This is what I came up with for Stretching, it really isn't all that expensive, the final real cost was 32points (87 active):

 

Stretching 10", Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Range Based on STR (-1/4)

Ten hexes? You realize a Str 17 character can throw a shotput that far? If we are talking a heroic game that is a huge Real Cost (a medium spear--which can be thrown--only has a Real Cost of 18). If we are talking a superheroic game, that range is laughably small. And doubling the range is going to double the cost.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

Ten hexes? You realize a Str 17 character can throw a shotput that far? If we are talking a heroic game that is a huge Real Cost (a medium spear--which can be thrown--only has a Real Cost of 18). If we are talking a superheroic game' date=' that range is laughably small. And doubling the range is going to double the cost.[/quote']

If we're talking about a real weapon in a heroic game we can add OAF -1 and real weapon -1/2 which, when I add the Uses Range Modifiers I forgot the first time, brings us down to 19 points.

 

If you want you could even add Restrainable for -1/2 bringing us down to 17points. Add 2 more inches and you're up to 21 points, and figuring 2 meters is 6 feet that's 72 feet. Pretty impressive hammer throw if you ask me, considering you're going to do the same damage at the 2 foot that you will at 72 foot mark. Or you could take Reduced by Range for -1/4 bringing us back down to 20 points.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Thrown non-killing weapon

 

I kinda like the idea of an HKA with range based on strength and does normal damage

 

Here's what I proposed to my GM:

 

Hammer of the Thunder God: Energy Blast (PD) 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), May Add STR to Damage (+1/2) (40 Active Points); OAF (-1), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Beam (-1/4) 16 real points

 

This is in replacement of the old power:

 

Hammer of the Thunder God: Hand to Hand Attack (PD) 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Range Based on Strength (+1/4) (35 Active Points); OAF (-1), Hand to Hand Attack (-1/2) 14 real points

 

-Nate