Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

[Jaxom]

Ok, so I am working on a brick and I got this idea for an interesting combination. HD3 allows me to build it but I am not sure about some of the minor points and am looking for clarification.

 

The high-level idea is a CON/BODY brick in a Standard Superheroic campaign (80 AP powers, DC < 15, 40 point Chars).

 

I want to build an artifact/focus/hammer for the brick.

 

Rather than just making this a simple attack, I want to use the mystical nature of the hammer to invoke a combined attack. The more I think about it, the more I run into some interesting ideas and questions.

 

First, can I build a "weapon" using a normal attack instead of a killing attack? I know it means all targets use full PD, etc. but that fits with the character concept. Seems kinda unorthodox, but I am not aware of anything that makes it illegal. (Maybe he naturally pulls blows against people wearing softer armor.)

 

Second, is a normal HTH attack really an EB (No Range), the way HD3 builds it, or is it a separate, unique power? EB allows you to take the "STUN Only (+0)" Advantage which would be very interesting. If this is an EB, then I'd happily take it. If Hand-to-hand Attack is explicitly a different power then I cannot use EB to produce the effects of another power. (Yeah, think about that... A big, honkin' hammer which does no BODY and no Knockback...)

 

Third is one I have just never been clear on... If I have STR 30 and a hammer with 4 DC, I know swinging my hammer is an 8 DC attack (STR boosting) and I believe that I use 7 END (4 for the weapon and 3 for the STR I think). With the same numbers, if I use Martial Strike (+2 Weapon DCs), what is the final attack value (i.e. where and when does the Martial Strike add in the formula) or another way of looking at it is how much END do I spend?

 

And finally, I want to add a linked effect to this. In another thread, prestidigitator said that the way to use Linked is as follows... If you have two powers, A and B, if you can use A or use (A and then you put the Linked on power B. If you can only use (A and then you can put Linked on both powers. This is a direct contradiction of the 5Ed rules for Linked. Was Linked changed for 5ER? And for a linked pair of attacks if I take the limitation that Attack A Must Do STUN (on attack , do I always pay END for attack B whether it has effect or not? Or do I only pay for it when it actually goes off? (And is there a limitation or advantage to switch from one to the other already defined?)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

Ok, so I am working on a brick and I got this idea for an interesting combination. HD3 allows me to build it but I am not sure about some of the minor points and am looking for clarification.

 

The high-level idea is a CON/BODY brick in a Standard Superheroic campaign (80 AP powers, DC < 15, 40 point Chars).

 

I want to build an artifact/focus/hammer for the brick.

 

Rather than just making this a simple attack, I want to use the mystical nature of the hammer to invoke a combined attack. The more I think about it, the more I run into some interesting ideas and questions.

 

First, can I build a "weapon" using a normal attack instead of a killing attack? I know it means all targets use full PD, etc. but that fits with the character concept. Seems kinda unorthodox, but I am not aware of anything that makes it illegal. (Maybe he naturally pulls blows against people wearing softer armor.)

 

Second, is a normal HTH attack really an EB (No Range), the way HD3 builds it, or is it a separate, unique power? EB allows you to take the "STUN Only (+0)" Advantage which would be very interesting. If this is an EB, then I'd happily take it. If Hand-to-hand Attack is explicitly a different power then I cannot use EB to produce the effects of another power. (Yeah, think about that... A big, honkin' hammer which does no BODY and no Knockback...)

 

Third is one I have just never been clear on... If I have STR 30 and a hammer with 4 DC, I know swinging my hammer is an 8 DC attack (STR boosting) and I believe that I use 7 END (4 for the weapon and 3 for the STR I think). With the same numbers, if I use Martial Strike (+2 Weapon DCs), what is the final attack value (i.e. where and when does the Martial Strike add in the formula) or another way of looking at it is how much END do I spend?

 

And finally, I want to add a linked effect to this. In another thread, prestidigitator said that the way to use Linked is as follows... If you have two powers, A and B, if you can use A or use (A and then you put the Linked on power B. If you can only use (A and then you can put Linked on both powers. This is a direct contradiction of the 5Ed rules for Linked. Was Linked changed for 5ER? And for a linked pair of attacks if I take the limitation that Attack A Must Do STUN (on attack , do I always pay END for attack B whether it has effect or not? Or do I only pay for it when it actually goes off? (And is there a limitation or advantage to switch from one to the other already defined?)

 

First, Bricks with MA's usually get ticketed for shtick violations by MA's

 

Assuming that this is a weapon that does normal (non-killing) damage is anything like Thor's Hammer (marvel comics version) I would recommend a Multipower something like:

 

80 Weapon Multipower

8u 1) Thrown Weapon: EB 16d6

8u 2) Swing Weapon: HA +8d6 (-1/2 HA) (40 Active) Variable Advantage (+1/2 worth of Advantages; +1) (80 active total)

8u 3) Thundering Swing: HA + 8d6 (-1/2 HA) Plus Flash (40 active points worth) linked to HA (-1/4 or 1/2) (80 active total)

 

Slot 1 costs 8 END

Slot 2 can cost 8, 3 or 0 END before STR (depending on what Variable Advantages are used)

Slot 3 costs 8 END

[pinecone]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

I second the Multi, By the book MA attacks just add to the top, it's pure frosting....so with a 30 STR you could buy a 40 point multi, or buy a bigger one and limit the HA.....

 

The Hammer of Gotterdamerang (50)

u +8D6 REnd>1/2, (does 14D6, costs 2+3 End, or 5 total)

u E-atk 10D6 (this can be No body, and you can add in No range to save cost if you want)

u RKA 2.5 D6 Indirect (always from the sky)

u +5D6 HA PEN,Rend>0(does 10D6 Penitrating, cost 0+3, total 3 End)

 

Etc......If you need to save points take the Hammer as a Foci, or maybe just OHID....

Of course with this build MA's just seems rude, so I'd lose it...spend the points on levels instead..

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

The multi makes sense and I can probably do it cheap (since the Hammer is the focus). The MA was frosting in any case... The Hammer is intentionally bought small since I don't *want* to hit the DC cap for the campaign. I figure throwing in linked attacks the last thing I want to do is 20 DCs *and* a 6d6 drain. The GM would come after me with antitank weapons in groups of 20. I'm happy to let the other brick in the group be the heavy hitter while I go for moderate damage and cool tricks...

 

I dunno about bypassing Martial Dodge though. I have enough points of INT to know that I might just want that extra 2 DCV sometime.

[Silbeg]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

To specifically answer your questions...

 

First, can I build a "weapon" using a normal attack instead of a killing attack?

Absolutely. There are weapons even in 5ER that are normal attacks, such as clubs.

 

Second, is a normal HTH attack really an EB (No Range), the way HD3 builds it, or is it a separate, unique power? EB allows you to take the "STUN Only (+0)" Advantage which would be very interesting.

The would the HA (Hand to hand attack) power. This power adds to STR damage. However, unlike a HKA, you cannot add "Ranged" to it, since it automatically has a -1/2 HtH attack limitation (kind of a cheese to make it balance out, I guess). You probably could take the STUN Only (-0) if your GM allowed it, but I would hesitate if I were him.

 

The rest of your questions have been answered, I think.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

And finally' date=' I want to add a linked effect to this. In another thread, prestidigitator said that the way to use Linked is as follows... If you have two powers, A and B, if you can use A or use (A and then you put the Linked on power B. If you can only use (A and then you can put Linked on both powers. This is a direct contradiction of the 5Ed rules for Linked. Was Linked changed for 5ER? And for a linked pair of attacks if I take the limitation that Attack A Must Do STUN (on attack , do I always pay END for attack B whether it has effect or not? Or do I only pay for it when it actually goes off? (And is there a limitation or advantage to switch from one to the other already defined?)[/quote']

I guess it does require GM's permission, but...

Linked only affects the lesser power. A character can use the greater power in any way. However he can only use the lesser power when he uses the grater power.

...

At the GM's discretion, a character may Link a power with a higher Active Pointer cost to one with a lower Active Point cost for a smaller Limitation. An example of this is a knife coated with poison. The poison is much more costly....

So really according to the, "letter of the law," there is no way to buy two powers that mush always be used with each other. In practice I have seen plenty of examples where Linked is applied at full value to the smaller power and at the reduced value for the larger power, so that neither can be used without the other.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about the legality of a weapon/focus build

 

First' date=' can I build a "weapon" using a normal attack instead of a killing attack? I know it means all targets use full PD, etc. but that fits with the character concept. Seems kinda unorthodox, but I am not aware of anything that makes it illegal. (Maybe he naturally pulls blows against people wearing softer armor.)[/quote']

Yes. Check out General Rules For Building Weapons on page 478 of 5ER for other guidelines and examples of how the authors built the examples weapons.

 

Second, is a normal HTH attack really an EB (No Range), the way HD3 builds it, or is it a separate, unique power? EB allows you to take the "STUN Only (+0)" Advantage which would be very interesting. If this is an EB, then I'd happily take it. If Hand-to-hand Attack is explicitly a different power then I cannot use EB to produce the effects of another power. (Yeah, think about that... A big, honkin' hammer which does no BODY and no Knockback...)

Yes, no and it doesn't really matter. The behind the scenes of HA is that it's STR (not EB) bought with a Limitation so that it only causes damage and doesn't affect Figured Characteristics, Leaping, etc. Since STR cannot be bought Ranged (you use TK for that), you cannot put Ranged on HA. But that doesn't really matter. The rules is that you can't put Ranged on an HA because if you want a ranged attack, you can by EB.

 

As for applying the STUN Only, you'd have to decide if you are treating it like an Advantage (so you can only add STR to double the DC of the HA) or as a Limitation (allowing you to add all STR in superheroic campaigns).

 

Third is one I have just never been clear on... If I have STR 30 and a hammer with 4 DC, I know swinging my hammer is an 8 DC attack (STR boosting) and I believe that I use 7 END (4 for the weapon and 3 for the STR I think). With the same numbers, if I use Martial Strike (+2 Weapon DCs), what is the final attack value (i.e. where and when does the Martial Strike add in the formula) or another way of looking at it is how much END do I spend?

The rules for adding damage are different in Heroic and Superheroic games. In a Heroic game, the max damage a weapon dealing 4d6N is 8d6N. The END would only for the STR used in the attack, for almost all (if not absolutely all) HTH weapon are bought 0 END in heroic campaigns. You'd spend the END of the STR needed to match the STR Min of the weapon, then for all the STR that adds to the damage.

 

In superheroic games, all damage between STR and HA adds straight, no matter if it's bought through a focus or not, so you'll due the full HA+STR (minus STR used for the STR Min of the weapon, if any), and the END cost will be the same as for Heroic (if the HA was bought 0 END, you only spend END for the STR used).

 

This gets massively complicated if you want to also use Martial Arts. If you think you can make sense of them, the Adding Damage rules start on page 405 of 5ER. There are a number of members of this boards who have simplified that text with a handy chart, so if you'd like it just ask and either myself or one of those authors will happily attach it to a post or otherwise send it to you.

 

And finally, I want to add a linked effect to this. In another thread, prestidigitator said that the way to use Linked is as follows... If you have two powers, A and B, if you can use A or use (A and then you put the Linked on power B. If you can only use (A and then you can put Linked on both powers. This is a direct contradiction of the 5Ed rules for Linked. Was Linked changed for 5ER? And for a linked pair of attacks if I take the limitation that Attack A Must Do STUN (on attack , do I always pay END for attack B whether it has effect or not? Or do I only pay for it when it actually goes off? (And is there a limitation or advantage to switch from one to the other already defined?)

 

It's not so much a contradiction as it is a logically addition by many players. The rules make no allowances for a situation where both A and B must be used together or not at all. Linked only allows for a situation where A can be used freely, but B can only be used with A. It's a logical assumption to state that if A also cannot be used without B and vice versa, both A and B get the Linked Limitation (though one of the them will have Linked at a lesser Limitation, being designated the "greater" power).

 

AS for the second part of your question, if both A and B and Linked to each other (both ways), you must spend END for both regardless of their ultimate effect on the target. The Power doesn't care if the target took STUN or even hit the target, it only cares if you paid the END to use it, and you must spend that END before determing the resolution of either part of the attack.