Big Blindspot in Skill Ranks?

[Rene]

Hello, folks.

 

I've become a big fan of the HERO System. Simply put, it's my favorite RPG nowadays because it's the only one where I can get a dozen different novels, genres and comics and have some reasonable hope to simulate all of them with only one system.

 

Most of the other systems do one subgenre well (sometimes a tiny subgenre, like "D&D fantasy" that is unlike most kinds of literature fantasy published outside of TSR) and even GURPS is too deep into "realism" for my tastes, a realism that isn't found in 90% of the fiction I like.

 

Still, as great as HERO is dealing with Powers, Characteristics and Disadvantages, I find there is a problem with Skills, so I've turned to you more experienced folks for suggestions.

 

Problem is, you can have an 8- in a Skill (Familiarity) or you can have Char Roll level or higher. And that is that.

 

Let's say we're writing up Spider-Man. 30 Dexterity, I guess. That is a 15- DEX Roll. Any DEX-based Skill will be 15- or higher. That is okay for his Acrobatics and Breakfall, I guess. But Spidey isn't so stealthy as that, OTOH Stealth 8- is too low. I'd say 11- or 12- would be about right for him.

 

A less extreme example would be Wild Cards's Golden Boy. He is a so-and-so actor, better than Acting 8-, but not good enough for Acting 12- (I'm guessing his Presence is about 15).

 

I find it strange that a system so flexible in most other aspects lacks this quality in the way it deal with Skills.

[SleepyDrug]

Two Options:

 

1) Physical Limitation with penalties to skills the character is worse at.

 

2) A lower stat and skill levels.

[Yamo]

Just buy the skill at 8- or 11- and purchase +1 Skill Levels for it until it's exactly where you want it.

[Monolith]

I would not worry about it too much. Take your Stealth example. Yes, Spider-man would have a 15- roll, but on average he will only make that roll by 4, which in turn means the PER penalty for the person trying to detect him sneaking up is only -4. I do not know what the odd are of rolling a 7 or 8 but I imagine they are not terrible. Even if the odds are 1 in 4 that is still a pretty good chance to detect someone as capable as Spider-man.

 

Personally, I would have gone in the completely opposite direction with skills than what Steve did. I would have made all skills cost 3 points but give a base 11- roll. And then charge +1 point for each increase. That way you would get a broader range of skill rolls per character.

 

Another option is to create Spider-man with a lower DEX but then give him a lot of Lightning Reflexes. I personally do not like that option but I think it is the one which Steve prefers. That would give you a lower base roll which you could then increase for the skills you want to be better.

[Mancer]

As an alternative to the current way skills are bought the following simple House Rule will allow you to have more variation without unbalancing the game whatsoever:

 

All skills may be bought at either the 1 pt. Familiarity level (8- roll), a base level for 2 pts (11- roll), and a skill based level for 3 pts (Char/5+9- roll). Skill rolls are raised using the current method in FrED.

 

MANCER

[Kintara]

Well, 30 Dex is fantastically gifted. I kind of like the fact that someone who is essentially preternaturally agile doesn't ever need to worry about plebeian levels of skill. If Spidey can be average or "kinda good" at something, then maybe he isn't preternaturally agile. I'd agree with the idea of lowering the characteristic and tweaking the skill levels that way.

 

But I think, more honestly, that although Spidey isn't known for his Stealth, he probably does pretty well at it.

 

I'll agree that it might be moderately inflexible, but I don't mind the limits it is imposing. The best solution I can give to extend the flexibility is to do the thing where the character takes a penalty that they aren't really "refunded" for. By that I mean, just buy the skill to the default, then lower it to a number you like. Combine it with the idea of a disadvantage, and they even get reimbursement that is essentially legal, rules-wise. You should be careful with the math though. Make sure the disadvantage is balanced to the penalty inflicted, of course. I would imagine a 5 point disadvantage would require a hefty amount of skill lowering.

[Yamo]

Another option would be to buy 10 or so of his DEX with the Limitation "Doesn't Add To Skills X, Y And Z; -1/4)."

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Yamo

Another option would be to buy 10 or so of his DEX with the Limitation "Doesn't Add To Skills X, Y And Z; -1/4)."

Yeah, workable. Of course the problem I have with it is the inelegance of it. That's why I would stand by the levels the system spits out, and tweak the characteristics as necessary to keep the skills appropriately set (or do the voluntary nerf I mentioned).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Another option would be to buy 10 or so of his DEX with the Limitation "Doesn't Add To Skills X, Y And Z; -1/4)."

Actually, the rules state that you cannot put a Limitation on a Primary Characteristic unless the Limitation also effects the Figured Characterisitcs. So in this case, unless the Limitation is also viable for Speed it cannot be legally used.

[Yamo]

Actually, the rules state that you cannot put a Limitation on a Primary Characteristic unless the Limitation also effects the Figured Characterisitcs. So in this case, unless the Limitation is also viable for Speed it cannot be legally used.

 

Hmm. That seems kinda lame. What's that rule supposed to accomplish?

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Monolith

Actually, the rules state that you cannot put a Limitation on a Primary Characteristic unless the Limitation also effects the Figured Characterisitcs. So in this case, unless the Limitation is also viable for Speed it cannot be legally used.

Eh? Not even if it's just extra levels, not the entire characteristic? What if it was bought as No Figured Characteristics, and then he bought the figured characteristics seperately to the level he wanted?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Hmm. That seems kinda lame. What's that rule supposed to accomplish?

I have absolutely no idea.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kintara

Eh? Not even if it's just extra levels, not the entire characteristic? What if it was bought as No Figured Characteristics, and then he bought the figured characteristics seperately to the level he wanted?

I think the rule states that if you put a Limitation on a Primary which does not affect a Figured you automatically lose the Figured Characteristics without getting a Limitation for them.

 

So it is possible to buy +10 DEX with a -1/4 Limitation, but you do not get the +1 SPD and you do not get to take the No Figured Characteristics Limitation.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think the rule states that if you put a Limitation on a Primary which does not affect a Figured you automatically lose the Figured Characteristics without getting a Limitation for them.

 

So it is possible to buy +10 DEX with a -1/4 Limitation, but you do not get the +1 SPD and you do not get to take the No Figured Characteristics Limitation.

Well, that sure sounds stupid. Maybe I just don't get it.

[Mancer]

Hmm. That seems kinda lame. What's that rule supposed to accomplish?

 

Seems to me that if you bought Dexterity (or any other Primary Characteristic) with a limitation that does not effect its figured characteristics (i.e. Speed in this example) you just got a bunch of pts in speed for free. Although adding the no figured characteristics to this seems acceptable.

 

MANCER

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kintara

Well, that sure sounds stupid. Maybe I just don't get it.

It is on page 92 if you want to read it for yourself.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Monolith

It is on page 92 if you want to read it for yourself.

No, I believe you (I don't have my book, so I have to anyway). It doesn't change my opinion, though.

[Rene]

Skills

 

Thanks for the suggestions, everybody. I think the one I liked the most was just taking the lower skill level anyway and work it out as a Physical Disadvantage if the character happens to merit it.

[Fireg0lem]

Here's why the rule exists:

STR +30, Only with Big Toe of Left Foot When Used to Martial Grab a Platypus (-2)

10 points for 6PD, 6 REC, 15 STUN. Ka-ching!

Slightly less abusively:

Extra Limb (5 points)

+30 STR, Not with Extra Limb (-1/4)

24 real points

Net result: 29 CP for 30 CP of STR, with no real disadvantage, and a weak extra limb. Can't even be disallowed because many characters would logically be built this way. Its also very hard for a new GM to spot this, and a new player might not even notice the cheese.

[Yamo]

+30 STR, Not with Extra Limb (-1/4)

24 real points

Net result: 29 CP for 30 CP of STR, with no real disadvantage, and a weak extra limb. Can't even be disallowed because many characters would logically be built this way. Its also very hard for a new GM to spot this, and a new player might not even notice the cheese.

 

Wouldn't make more sense to make this a Limitation on the Extra Limbs? Maybe "Can Only Use 10 STR With Extra Limb; -1/2)" or something?

 

Doing it the way you mention seems totally bass-ackwards. I would certainly never allow it.

[Kintara]

I understand why you might get free points out of it. The question I have is why can't you take No Figured Characteristics when you take another limitation? (Monolith said you have to lose figured characteristics with no compensation as soon as you take another limitation. So you take a 1/4 limitation on Dex, and it's like taking No Figureds and the 1/4 limitation.)

[Mancer]

If as a GM you decide that a character is not allowed to take the No Figured Characteristics Lim, then the limitation on the primary characteristic should reflect the fact that the character will be losing out on additional PD, REC, STUN, Etc (as well as whatever the limitation is designed to limit).

 

 

MANCER

[Stormraven]

Back to the topic... :-)

 

The poster is concerned that characters with high stats are always good at any stat-based skill they go to the effort of learning - but are not much good at those they don't. At least, that's how I see the original post.

 

A number of good ideas have been presented, and I have one myself, to indicate poor performance in skills that the player has, but not to the default level, but I'll start with a caveat.

 

I don't think Spider-man is poor at Stealth at all. It's not his bread and butter, so he doesn't use it all the time, but when he needs to use it, normals don't hear him.

 

And that's the important benchmark. He may not seem very stealthy, when you realise that most of his opponents can find him even if he's trying to be quiet, but his opponents aren't normals. Doc Ock has a remarkable intelligence, and very good perception. Kraven is a big-game hunter. Some of his opponents have semi-mystical senses.

 

And those who aren't in the 'special' category perception-wise have fairly often been surprised by Spidey coming in stealthily.

 

He's no Daredevil, true. But Daredevil has skill levels, preternaturally heightened senses, and a darker costume than Spidey.

 

Still, the basic point is valid - what if you have a character who isn't very good at something his stats say he should be?

 

An example is the super-genius who isn't very perceptive. Well, Physical limitations work to curb innate rolls like that, but what about skills that the character has bought?

 

Here's my take on that. It's a house rule, of course, but I think it's viable.

 

Given: A familiarity of a basic skill is 8- for 1 point. A basic skill is 11-.

 

Therefore, for stat-based skills, a familiarity gives a skill roll equal to the stat-based skill roll -3. Thus, a super-genius with a 38 Int (17- Int roll), who purchases a 1 point Familiarity with Analyze would have a 14- Familiarity.

 

It works the other way, too. If your stat-based skill roll is 10-, a Familiarity based on that stat would be 7-.

 

Possibilities for munchkinism? Sure. But Combat skills aren't Stat-based, so they're not going to be affected, nor are general skills, and it shows fairly well just how innately impressive a high-stat character can be.

[Gary]

+100 str with x10 end cost. A reasonable power construct.

 

For 20 real points, you would get +20 PD, +20 Rec, and +50 stun. Sell back 20 stun, and you would get 90 pts of characteristics for free.

 

That's why if a limitation doesn't affect figureds, you don't get the figureds at all.

[Rene]

Spidey's Stealth

 

Thanks for the suggestion, Stormraven. I like it.

 

Now for the question "Is Spider-Man so stealthy as that?", my take is that he has about Stealth 12- and he usually can get some bonus because he approaches from the ceiling, walls or the sky, and people usually aren't looking in his direction. As opposed to Stealth 15- ninja-like characters that can just walk into a military base unnoticed.

 

But maybe that is splitting hairs and it makes more sense to just give him a higher roll, since he'll get the bonus most of the time.