Big Blindspot in Skill Ranks?

[Agent X]

According to the Champions Genre Book, 31 is the minimum for superhuman Dexterity. Spider Man has super human Dexterity. Therefore, at a minimum, Spider Man has a 31 Dexterity. Now, based on what I have seen in the comics, Spidey's superhuman Dexterity appears to be greater than some other supers with superhuman Dexterity in an obvious way: Translation - higher base OCV/DCV than some other superhuman Dexterity supers meaning Spidey has to have a minimum DEX of 35.

 

This argument is based on the official benchmarks I have seen in 5E and a pretty decent familiarity of Amazing Spider Man, Marvel Team Up, and other Spidey titles.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

This argument is based on the official benchmarks I have seen in 5E and a pretty decent familiarity of Amazing Spider Man, Marvel Team Up, and other Spidey titles.

35 is where I would put him myself, but the style of a person's game has a lot to do with dictating that. I could easily see him with a 30 in an NCM game, for instance.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Mancer

As an alternative to the current way skills are bought the following simple House Rule will allow you to have more variation without unbalancing the game whatsoever:

 

All skills may be bought at either the 1 pt. Familiarity level (8- roll), a base level for 2 pts (11- roll), and a skill based level for 3 pts (Char/5+9- roll). Skill rolls are raised using the current method in FrED.

 

MANCER

 

I was going to suggest this exact method, but Mancer beat me to it.

 

This is the way to go Rene, ignore all that hullahbaloo about limitations on Dex and whatnot, it'll just throw unnessecary complications at your players.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Gary

+100 str with x10 end cost. A reasonable power construct.

 

For 20 real points, you would get +20 PD, +20 Rec, and +50 stun. Sell back 20 stun, and you would get 90 pts of characteristics for free.

 

That's why if a limitation doesn't affect figureds, you don't get the figureds at all.

Yeah but Monolith said this is true (right?):

 

+10 Dex with the limitation Doesn't Add to Skills X,Y,Z (-1/4) recieves the effects of the No Figured Characteristics limitatation, but not the point savings.

 

Why shouldn't you get +10 Dex Doesn't Add to Skills X,Y,Z (-1/4), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2 [? don't have my book])?

 

Edit: Ok, last time I bring this up, this time. Don't want to be too off topic.

[Ndreare]

The correct way to build the power would involve the application of common sense and following the rules as they are in the book.

 

+10 Dex; Does not Affect Figured Characteristics -1/2, Does not Affect Skill Rolls -1/4= 30/1.75 = 17 points.

 

(If you want the speed back you pay the 10 points for the speed and now it looks like you got three points for a skill penalty level.)

[Ndreare]

Re: Big Blindspot in Skill Ranks?

 

Originally posted by Rene

Hello, folks.

 

I've become a big fan of the HERO System. Simply put, it's my favorite RPG nowadays because it's the only one where I can get a dozen different novels, genres and comics and have some reasonable hope to simulate all of them with only one system.

 

Most of the other systems do one subgenre well (sometimes a tiny subgenre, like "D&D fantasy" that is unlike most kinds of literature fantasy published outside of TSR) and even GURPS is too deep into "realism" for my tastes, a realism that isn't found in 90% of the fiction I like.

 

Still, as great as HERO is dealing with Powers, Characteristics and Disadvantages, I find there is a problem with Skills, so I've turned to you more experienced folks for suggestions.

 

Problem is, you can have an 8- in a Skill (Familiarity) or you can have Char Roll level or higher. And that is that.

 

Let's say we're writing up Spider-Man. 30 Dexterity, I guess. That is a 15- DEX Roll. Any DEX-based Skill will be 15- or higher. That is okay for his Acrobatics and Breakfall, I guess. But Spidey isn't so stealthy as that, OTOH Stealth 8- is too low. I'd say 11- or 12- would be about right for him.

 

A less extreme example would be Wild Cards's Golden Boy. He is a so-and-so actor, better than Acting 8-, but not good enough for Acting 12- (I'm guessing his Presence is about 15).

 

I find it strange that a system so flexible in most other aspects lacks this quality in the way it deal with Skills.

 

 

As a side note have you read how the skills work? Having just one skill at a high level is less indicative of talent than having complimentary skills. So the actor may have his acting at one level a persuasion skill (to help convince you of what he is feeling) PS Acting (representing he can do it professionally) and a PS Actor (knowing the ins and outs of the business).

 

One skill does not make a character.

 

P.S: On the other hand I think Spiderman would have a very high stealth skill.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Ndreare

I personally think that High scores should affect skills.

This is how real life works why would you want to change it?

 

Many genres don't simulate real life. But that is not here nor there. I agree with you. High Characteristic scores should affect skills. I just think the method in HERO is a little bit too inflexible. What about the high Char characters that never trained enough to develop their Skills to Char level? By the book, you either get 8-or Char level and nothing in between.

 

And some skills are somewhat problematic. You could say that Stealth depends mostly on DEX, but it's also a function of perception, intelligence, mental concentration, and discipline. Spidey has plenty of Dexterity, but not near enough in the other areas when compared to a guy like Batman. So it would be good if there were a bit more separation between Skills and Chars.

 

But it's not such a big problem. I just think it a bit weird the way you can easily mix and match Powers, but not Skills.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

For a long time, HERO had skills that 'didn't fit in' -- didn't have controlling characteristics, IOW. Mechanics was one, I don't offhand recall the others. However, all these skills started out at 11-, that being the 'default trained level'. The REAL default level in HERO is actually a 9-; labs in bases start out at 9- and must be purchased up. If you want to be picky, permit your players to select a skill at 9- or 11- (I'd recommend 11- -- that's the 'trained, but not fully trained' sort of level, while 8- is 'well, I know how it's supposed to be done...' level) for 2 points, then raise the skill from there.

 

However, I hold the opposite opinion: if Jim Genius receives the same information, the same training as Ned Normal, Jim's going to be much better at it. Why? Because Jim's going to make connections that Ned isn't, Jim is going to take the logic one or more steps further, Jim is going to be creative in his application of the material. This was the beef I had with 'non-controlling-characteristic skills' in the BBB; some of the skills there had (IMO) logical, obvious base characteristics, and yet they received no 'boost' for it.

 

So if you want to have that 'half-step' between 1-point 8- and 3-point 9+(CHA/5), go with the 2-point 11-. It's an acceptible step, a 'partially trained in the field' move. If Secret Agent 014 starts out with FAM: Bureaucracy (8-), he can spend 1 more point to gain Bureaucracy 11- after a few sessions dealing with HMSS. Further down the road, SA014 has figured out how to work the system, and (after spending yet another point) now has Bureaucracy 14-. (Smart man.) It fits what you want to do. Make the ruling.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Rene

Many genres don't simulate real life. But that is not here nor there. I agree with you. High Characteristic scores should affect skills. I just think the method in HERO is a little bit too inflexible. What about the high Char characters that never trained enough to develop their Skills to Char level? By the book, you either get 8-or Char level and nothing in between.

 

And some skills are somewhat problematic. You could say that Stealth depends mostly on DEX, but it's also a function of perception, intelligence, mental concentration, and discipline. Spidey has plenty of Dexterity, but not near enough in the other areas when compared to a guy like Batman. So it would be good if there were a bit more separation between Skills and Chars.

 

But it's not such a big problem. I just think it a bit weird the way you can easily mix and match Powers, but not Skills.

 

I recall somewhere Steve talking about an Ultimate Skill book. Hopefully this great topic will help foster some ideas.

 

I think it is a misconception that dexterity is a purely physical characteristic. The affect is physical action but the process is as much, if not more mental, than physical. It is one part physical (Can your body perform the action?), practice (Is the mind and body connection second nature to perform this action?), and mental focus (Does your mind know how to direct the body through this action to it's goal in this particular situation?)

 

The traditional form of DEX used in RPG's assumes this connection is equal at all points. So a character could have an average general inteligence but still have the mental faculties and focus to be a great athlete because the DEX score is high.

 

My experience is that dexterity is more mental than physical. It is knowledge of the action/reaction of things in either specific or general situations. If you perceive that the glass is about to fall you can catch it before it hits the floor - not because you move superhumanly fast but because you knew to be in the right place at the right time.

 

Any ideas out there what RPG has the best skill system?

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Any ideas out there what RPG has the best skill system?

 

Hands down the best skills system I have ever seen was Fuzion. I know the people here don't like it but this must have been the most user friendly system ever. If they had gone all the way and fleshed out the rest of the power mods I would never have made it back to HERO System.

 

Fuzion was hands down the best game ever at simulating Anime also.

 

 

P.S.: Yes I read power core but it took the simplicaty out of the game.

[Crimson Arrow]

I quite like the idea of allowing 2 point Skills giving an 11- roll.

 

Just to throw in my opinion, Spidey probably has got a high Stealth roll. He IS very aware of his surroundings, I'd say, as a side-effect of his Spider-Sense. Batman has the advantage of a less colourful costume, greater tactical awareness, knowledge of the Concealment and Shadowing skills which could be Complimentary in the situations he finds himself in and lots of Overall levels. Bats's base Stealth roll is probably 14/15-, but even just allowing for his skill levels (ie he's REALLY trying not to be heard), he's probably on 18-, ignoring any other factors.

[Galadorn]

Re: Big Blindspot in Skill Ranks?

 

But Spidey isn't so stealthy as that, OTOH Stealth 8- is too low. I'd say 11- or 12- would be about right for him.

 

A less extreme example would be Wild Cards's Golden Boy. He is a so-and-so actor, better than Acting 8-, but not good enough for Acting 12- (I'm guessing his Presence is about 15).

 

I find it strange that a system so flexible in most other aspects lacks this quality in the way it deal with Skills.

 

Oh, contraire. Spidey almost always surprises the thugs, even villians with average senses, like Rhino. I think we could say that those who spot him, have higher perception rolls, like Blade. For those supers with higher senses, spotting Spidey is old hat. But for Rhino or competent normals, spidey becomes the demon from the shadows. Sounds ok for a 30 Dex.

 

In long, keep in mind that a 12- or less is about 70% effective. With an 11- perception roll (60% effective) that means, on the average, that a normal perception roll would spot Spidey about 80% of the time. (Someone check my math please...) I dont think that reflects accurately Spiderman's stealth ability. I wouldn't expect Wolverine to be fooled at all by Spidey, but normals should be fooled most of the time. I think a 15- is about 92% chance of success, but against an 11- roll that falls to 32% chance of success of hiding, and a 58% chance of being spotted.

 

All this doesn't consider other factors like complimentary skills of local knowledge, concealment, etc. on both parties account.

 

In short, Spidey needs a high roll (16-) just too fool the normal villians about 32% of the time, and like I said they usually don't spot him at all. As a matter of fact I can't think of a time they did spot him, unless he was drugged, stunned, or severly injured and bleeding.

 

Just remember that Spidey in basically invisible to your normal, but plain to see to a super with enhanced senses. Based on this I would think Spidey needs more stealth, how about a 25- (160% chance of success), this would more reflect the ability for him to be spotted by normals, giving him a 100% chance of success versus an 11- perception.

 

Funny what analysis of numbers and a real understanding of enhanced senses can reveal, eh bub? (Puts stoogey out in palm of his hairy hand.)

[Trebuchet]

I've posted this before, but here's a chart showing percentage probabilities of rolling a given number or less on 3d6:

 

Roll/Success %

3- 0.5 %

4- 1.9

5- 4.6

6- 9.3

7- 16.2

8- 25.9

9- 37.5

10- 50.0

11- 62.5

12- 74.1

13- 83.8

14- 90.7

15- 95.4

16- 98.1

17- 99.5

18- 100.0

 

Just don't forget that Skill rolls like Stealth are made versus the other character's PER roll. So if Batman with an 18- Stealth roll rolls a 17 and thus only makes it by 1, a guard who makes his own hearing PER roll by 5 might well have heard even the ol' Dark Knightâ„¢ sneakin' around. Assuming, of course, that Batman wasn't smart enough to sneak around far enough away to provide range penalties to the guard's PER roll. Nor does this take complementary skills and environmental factors into account. (Of course, I'd give Batman a Stealth roll of around 25-.)

 

Now you see why my martial artist/gymnast has a 21- Acrobatics roll: A -5 penalty for a difficult maneuver still gives her a 98.1% chance of success.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I've posted this before, but here's a chart showing percentage probabilities of rolling a given number or less on 3d6:

 

Roll/Success %

3- 0.5 %

4- 1.9

5- 4.6

6- 9.3

7- 16.2

8- 25.9

9- 37.5

10- 50.0

11- 62.5

12- 74.1

13- 83.8

14- 90.7

15- 95.4

16- 98.1

17- 99.5

18- 100.0

 

Just don't forget that Skill rolls like Stealth are made versus the other character's PER roll. So if Batman with an 18- Stealth roll rolls a 17 and thus only makes it by 1, a guard who makes his own hearing PER roll by 5 might well have heard even the ol' Dark Knightâ„¢ sneakin' around. Assuming, of course, that Batman wasn't smart enough to sneak around far enough away to provide range penalties to the guard's PER roll. Nor does this take complementary skills and environmental factors into account. (Of course, I'd give Batman a Stealth roll of around 25-.)

 

Now you see why my martial artist/gymnast has a 21- Acrobatics roll: A -5 penalty for a difficult maneuver still gives her a 98.1% chance of success.

 

O.K. my guesses were close enough for guess work. Now for the really tough part Trebuchet....What percentage chance is a 25 or less?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Galadorn

O.K. my guesses were close enough for guess work. Now for the really tough part Trebuchet....What percentage chance is a 25 or less?

 

I'm not Trebuchet (obviously) but I can answer that one for you.

 

a 25 or less is a 99.5% chance of success.

 

Why?

 

Because a natural roll of 18 always fails, no matter what the skill roll is

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

I'm not Trebuchet (obviously) but I can answer that one for you.

 

a 25 or less is a 99.5% chance of success.

 

Why?

 

Because a natural roll of 18 always fails, no matter what the skill roll is

 

Well, when compared to an unrivaled skill roll, this is true. When trying to figure adjusted percentage for success, compared to a rival skill roll by an adversary, this is needed.

[Trebuchet]

I've given this idea some thought, and I think there is some merit to it. However, I think something is being overlooked here. The vast "gap" between 1 point Familiarity 8- and 3 point CHAR 9+ (CHAR/5) Skills basically exists only in Champions. For the vast majority of HERO characters whose primary characteristics are in the 8-13 range, the 3 point Skill will be 11- or 12- anyway. It's only when one jumps into the upper teens or higher that the spread begins to look overly large.

 

Let's look at what is really meant by 8- and 11-. 8- means a 25.9% chance of success. That's basically "I've seen it done, but I've never done it myself". Even a lowly 11- is a 62.5% chance of success; a 2.4X multiplication of the probability of successfully performing a task. And if the character's CHAR is higher than the baseline 10 then the percentage chance of success ramps up rapidly.

 

So here is my suggestion for a compromise:

 

1 point = 8- Familiarity (25.9% chance of success)

2 points = 10- (50% chance of success)

3 points = 9+(CHAR/5) (62.5%+ chance of success)

 

The gap between a 1 point Familiarity and a 3 Point Skill is now filled with a 2 point "I've done it, but I'm not very good at it" level of skill that is almost twice a good as a Familiarity. And 3 points gets you "I'm pretty good (or amazingly good) at this." 10- is a step below true expertise, but it's a darn sight better than a mere 25.9% chance Familiarity.

 

And don't forget those modifiers such as Extra Time. Even a lowly 10- Stealth roll can look pretty good after a character has taken a minute to do it and found a dark noisy area to do it in half a block away.

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I've given this idea some thought, and I think there is some merit to it. However, I think something is being overlooked here. The vast "gap" between 1 point Familiarity 8- and 3 point CHAR 9+ (CHAR/5) Skills basically exists only in Champions. For the vast majority of HERO characters whose primary characteristics are in the 8-13 range, the 3 point Skill will be 11- or 12- anyway. It's only when one jumps into the upper teens or higher that the spread begins to look overly large.

 

Let's look at what is really meant by 8- and 11-. 8- means a 25.9% chance of success. That's basically "I've seen it done, but I've never done it myself". Even a lowly 11- is a 62.5% chance of success; a 2.4X multiplication of the probability of successfully performing a task. And if the character's CHAR is higher than the baseline 10 then the percentage chance of success ramps up rapidly.

 

So here is my suggestion for a compromise:

 

1 point = 8- Familiarity (25.9% chance of success)

2 points = 10- (50% chance of success)

3 points = 9+(CHAR/5) (62.5%+ chance of success)

 

The gap between a 1 point Familiarity and a 3 Point Skill is now filled with a 2 point "I've done it, but I'm not very good at it" level of skill that is almost twice a good as a Familiarity. And 3 points gets you "I'm pretty good (or amazingly good) at this." 10- is a step below true expertise, but it's a darn sight better than a mere 25.9% chance Familiarity.

 

And don't forget those modifiers such as Extra Time. Even a lowly 10- Stealth roll can look pretty good after a character has taken a minute to do it and found a dark noisy area to do it in half a block away.

 

O like this comprimise perhaps it will someday see D-Hero. or something.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I've given this idea some thought, and I think there is some merit to it. However, I think something is being overlooked here. The vast "gap" between 1 point Familiarity 8- and 3 point CHAR 9+ (CHAR/5) Skills basically exists only in Champions. For the vast majority of HERO characters whose primary characteristics are in the 8-13 range, the 3 point Skill will be 11- or 12- anyway. It's only when one jumps into the upper teens or higher that the spread begins to look overly large.

 

Let's look at what is really meant by 8- and 11-. 8- means a 25.9% chance of success. That's basically "I've seen it done, but I've never done it myself". Even a lowly 11- is a 62.5% chance of success; a 2.4X multiplication of the probability of successfully performing a task. And if the character's CHAR is higher than the baseline 10 then the percentage chance of success ramps up rapidly.

 

So here is my suggestion for a compromise:

 

1 point = 8- Familiarity (25.9% chance of success)

2 points = 10- (50% chance of success)

3 points = 9+(CHAR/5) (62.5%+ chance of success)

 

The gap between a 1 point Familiarity and a 3 Point Skill is now filled with a 2 point "I've done it, but I'm not very good at it" level of skill that is almost twice a good as a Familiarity. And 3 points gets you "I'm pretty good (or amazingly good) at this." 10- is a step below true expertise, but it's a darn sight better than a mere 25.9% chance Familiarity.

 

And don't forget those modifiers such as Extra Time. Even a lowly 10- Stealth roll can look pretty good after a character has taken a minute to do it and found a dark noisy area to do it in half a block away.

 

Yes, I think this will work. I did this in my own campaign a few years ago. Works well