Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

[counterveil]

So...I love HERO. I love the SPD characteristic, and I also hate it for various reasons which I've seen posters here enumerate. The main crux of my issues with SPD is that it affects your running speed, which is a completely separate stat.

 

Additionally, I like the granularity of second-by-second combat such as G*RPS uses, but I find G*RPS cumbersome.

 

I'm putting forth the following alternate SPD rules for critique, so feel free to blast it. Really, I want to see if you guys 'n gals can find any gigantic holes in the concept that might affect the meta-rules. The main aims of my alternate rules are to:

 

1) Preserve meta-rules such as phase-12, END usage and recovery, and so on.

2) Allow Run to really govern how fast you can move, as opposed to having SPD act as a multiplier for it.

3) Introduce more granularity into combat and engender a second-by-second feel to combat.

 

So on to the rules (making them as simple as possible):

 

Actions Per Phase

The first thing is, *you can act on any phase*. Acting on an off-phase to your SPD creates a penalty (I'm thinking -4 or more) to any non-defensive action that requires a roll of the dice - therefore, attacking off-phase can be done, but is generally bad since you're trying to act too quickly and are prone to make mistakes. Additionally, actions which require END usage *still* require END usage. Acting on every phase is going to burn your END quickly.

 

Movement Per Phase

Based on the above, *you can move on any phase*. Therefore, people who invest in Running, Swimming, Climbing, etc. aren't trumped by people who invested in SPD. Moving, of course, still takes END, and trying to move throughout an entire 12-second Turn is going to hurt you.

 

Vehicles

Vehicles still have a SPD, and attempting to control them out of phase also imposes a penalty to your controlling skill.

 

I've identified a few things that would have to be changed or would possibly have to be modified due to taking advantage of them in the rules:

 

Base Movement

To account for the new ability to move every phase, normal human running speed would be reduced to 4" base, with a 7" or 8" maximum.

 

Sprinting / Running

The ability to Sprint / Run would be removed. Full Move (i.e. moving your full Run rate) would the the most that you could move in a Phase. The nice thing here is that you don't get people taking off with a Run action and completely leaving combat. Additionally, people's ability to act off-phase will allow for interrupts of disengagement, etc.

 

Taking Recovery

Obviously it would become very easy to fully recover END just by spending an off-phase resting. I'll have to figure out some way to solve this since I like the option of doing this, but don't want it to become something cheesy, rules-wise.

 

Anyone else have any ideas around this, or can see potential issues that may arise? I think that END usage is going to police abuse of this rule for the most part (I'm running an Heroic-level campaign), so while the option exists to act in every phase, people will act off-phase when absolutely necessary.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

I feel your pain about the second-by-second granularity of combat. Before I comment on your alternate SPD rules, let me offer a couple of ideas to ameliorate your problems with the SPD chart concept.

 

First, if you ever watch people in a sparring match, they do not attack constantly. You throw a few punches and then pull back, evaluate your opponent, catch your breath, etc. The "choppy" way the SPD chart works kind of reflects that.

 

Second, if you do not like the way time passes in combat, ignore it. Don't make each Segment=1 second. Just use the chart as a guideline for how fast people get to go relative to each other. If you need exact times, then just use GM fiat to make things happen at the most dramatic moment. This is my personal tactic, if for no other reason that most HERO combats last less than half a minute strictly by the rules, which does not lend itself well to dramatic storytelling.

 

As for your proposal, first let me address REC. I would give everybody a total recovery, TOTREC=(REC+1)xSPD, where the +1 reflects post-12 recovery. You can take up to your REC score each phase you want to, but not exceeding your TOTREC score per turn.

 

I don't think that the END is going to police this system well enough to keep people from going every segment. It will just encourage them to buy lots of END (which is pretty cheap), or use large END Reserves or lots of Charges. Throw a few penalty levels on top of that and you can make a low SPD thug really dangerous.

 

I think this system will also change the dynamic of combat, for better or worse. People will tend to pack their actions into the front of the turn and then use their last action to Dodge so their DCV is high until the end of the turn. This will hurt high SPD characters the most obviously, and maybe that is a good thing for balance, but they did spend a lot of points to be fast so they shouldn't be penalized too much.

 

Finally, I like the idea of divorcing movement from SPD Maybe your acceleration should be based on SPD for the sake of convenience, but otherwise doing it by the turn gives movement a much smoother aspect. Build movement analogous to the falling rules, which go by Segment already.

 

Nice ideas though.

 

________________________________________________________

"Why follow me to higher ground, lost as you swear I am?" - Ed Roland

[counterveil]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Thanks much Spoon (or Ockham's?). It's comments and ideas like that that I'm definitely looking for.

 

Believe me, I love the choppiness of the original SPD rules. I *love* that some people are faster action-wise than others without some added [broken] method for treating multiple actions (see: Shadowrun). The "built-in" methodology works very, very well for many of the things I want to see in my games.

 

It's just a hang up of mine that super-fast-chop-socky martial artist can actually run faster than olympic-superstar-ronnie-the-runner. I know there are ways around that where you can build the olympic superstar to have conditional SPD levels, etc. However, I see that as more of a band-aid than anything else - which is why I even considered doing these alternate rules in the first place.

 

I very well see your points with regard to tweaking around these rules:

 

1) I don't think that the END is going to police this system well enough to keep people from going every segment.

Agreed to some degree; it will probably depend on how many points people are built on and how much they can "waste" on END batteries or increased END. It's going to be an heroic campaign, so points are going to be no more than 150 - still a lot of points to build up END. It's a Normals campaign, so that might add another restriction.

 

2) People will tend to pack their actions into the front of the turn and then use their last action to Dodge so their DCV is high until the end of the turn

Very good point, and something I hadn't thought of. I might have to ditch these rules simply based on that. The real feel I was going for was that people would *not* act out of turn unless absolutely necessary but you just brought up something I hadn't even considered.

 

I really like your idea of simply altering the way movement is handled in the first place. I had considered the following possibilities:

 

- Maximum movement (once you have moved this many hexes, you can't move anymore. Maximum movement could be based off your best sprint multiplied by a SPD of 2)

The problem here is that you end up with another hit-point-like stat that has to be kept track of. More bookkeeping is generally a bad thing, but if this ends up being the only way to handle it I would consider it.

 

- Staged movement (similar to what you suggested with making movement analagous to falling)

I can see with this type of ruling that half-move-to-attack might need some reworking. I haven't fully explored this yet, but I'll definitely take a look at it this evening and repost here with my findings.

 

Once again, thanks for the thoughtful and very informative reply. I <3 these boards

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Here's what I do.

Movement Rate per Turn instead of per Phase:

 

Do Movement Rate x2 per Turn = effectively no change for 2 SPD Characters others have to buy up their movement power instead of SPD to move faster.

 

E.G., Run 6" per Phase

= Run 12" per Turn

= Run 1" per Segment (when you want that extra detail).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

So...I love HERO. I love the SPD characteristic' date=' and I also hate it for various reasons which I've seen posters here enumerate. The main crux of my issues with SPD is that it affects your running speed, which is a completely separate stat.[/quote']

 

If your only issue is running speed, there are easier fixes.

 

Actions Per Phase

The first thing is, *you can act on any phase*. Acting on an off-phase to your SPD creates a penalty (I'm thinking -4 or more) to any non-defensive action that requires a roll of the dice - therefore, attacking off-phase can be done, but is generally bad since you're trying to act too quickly and are prone to make mistakes. Additionally, actions which require END usage *still* require END usage. Acting on every phase is going to burn your END quickly.

 

I'm unclear whether you can act on every segment (ie 12 times per turn) or can act on any phase up to your SPD stat. The former is implied by your comment about acting every phase, and would devalue Speed considerably. I have a 3 speed, so I'll Dodge in Segment 1, act normally in 3, Dodge again in 4 and so on. I'll have the benefits of Dodge in all segments except the ones I act in.

 

The latter means END isn't so much an issue as I still get only four actions. Paying for 4 PSL's to offset the penalty to attack actions isn't a big deal if it means I can attack in Ph 1 and 2, then dodge in 3 and get the benefits of my dodge for the rest of the turn. This will also be very choppy - moves at the start of the turn and nothing at the end.

 

Movement Per Phase

Based on the above, *you can move on any phase*. Therefore, people who invest in Running, Swimming, Climbing, etc. aren't trumped by people who invested in SPD. Moving, of course, still takes END, and trying to move throughout an entire 12-second Turn is going to hurt you.

 

You'll have to reset base running at 1" to get normal humans back to their current movement speed if they can move that speed every phase. Since they can half move, their half moves are now twice as fast. That per phase END for 1" will be nil, won't it? Now I can move 12" per turn at no END cost.

 

Base Movement

To account for the new ability to move every phase, normal human running speed would be reduced to 4" base, with a 7" or 8" maximum.

 

4" x 2 meters x 2 noncombat x 12 phases x 5 turns = 960 meters per minute, or almost 60 kph running speed for a normal human. As noted above, you'll have to cut back a lot more if people can move in every segment. If they can't, you've cut normal human movement by 1/3.

 

Sprinting / Running

The ability to Sprint / Run would be removed. Full Move (i.e. moving your full Run rate) would the the most that you could move in a Phase. The nice thing here is that you don't get people taking off with a Run action and completely leaving combat. Additionally, people's ability to act off-phase will allow for interrupts of disengagement, etc.

 

Does this mean you are eliminating noncombat multiples entirely, or only the free noncombat multiple?

 

Taking Recovery

Obviously it would become very easy to fully recover END just by spending an off-phase resting. I'll have to figure out some way to solve this since I like the option of doing this, but don't want it to become something cheesy, rules-wise.

 

If you spend an off phase resting, I'll attack you in my off phase at -4 while you're at DCV 0

 

Anyone else have any ideas around this' date=' or can see potential issues that may arise? I think that END usage is going to police abuse of this rule for the most part (I'm running an Heroic-level campaign), so while the option exists to act in every phase, people will act off-phase when absolutely necessary.[/quote']

 

What kind of heroic game? Guns cost no END. This approach will give a huge advantage to characters whose abilities cost little or no END. I think you're brushing that concern off far too lightly.

[gojira]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

These aren't bad ideas, they are pretty good in fact. Some problems have already been pointed out. I think the biggest is that SPD is 10 points per pip, and Running is 2 points per 1". Trying to change Running and SPD is going to cause huge point balance problems.

 

 

One problem I see is that Hero is, at it's core, a superheroic game. Ninja with incredibly focused chi are supposed to be faster than olympic atheletes. They're supposed to have super powers, even when they are just running. Ninja can disappear in the twinkling of an eye, they're fast at everything.

 

The fix to this, if you see it as a problem, is just to buy up the Running of the olympic athelete. Or at least buy up his non-combat speed, which is probably more accurate. You may have to redo some of the basic characters in purchased products, adding to non-combat Running, but you can get your games to feel however you want, with some effort.

 

 

Here's one idea: give everyone Repeated Actions. Once someone starts doing something, they can keep doing it. (I got this idea from Twilight 2000, a game of soldiers in post-apocyliptic Europe and the US. It's pretty grity, and the segment actions make vets feel much more competant than new recruits.)

 

Some examples of repeated actions are running, or laying down suppression fire. These are relatively simple tasks that anyone can keep doing. Once a repeated action is started, it can be stopped any time, but the character then has to wait for their phase to come up before they can do anything besides stop. In Hero, you should allow a repeated action to be replaced by an Abort, where the Abort is any normal defensive maneuver.

 

I think to make this work, you'd have to calculate the total non-combat movement for each character. Buy some more Running (non-combat or otherwise) if you think it's too low. Then divide by 12. This is the Repeated Running Speed, and yes DCV is 0. Normal combat movement is unchanged (it still occurs on discrete phases) and let's you keep your DCV. Now after the first phase, a character can declare a Repeated Action and use their Repeated Running Speed to keep moving.

 

Treat other actions similarly. Anything the character is trained to do, and could reasonably continue to do without much thought (firing a gun at a general target area, driving a vehicle, tap dancing, etc.) they can keep doing, although probably at some reduced DCV (1/2 at least). They can Abort at any time as normal, but that burns an action (as normal) and they have to wait for their next Phase to come around before they can do anything besides the action they Aborted to.

[counterveil]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

If your only issue is running speed' date=' there are easier fixes.[/quote']

 

Essentially, yes. I like one-second turns but by no means is that a driving factor. My main concern is making SPD a *non*-multiplying factor for Running

 

I'm unclear whether you can act on every segment (ie 12 times per turn) or can act on any phase up to your SPD stat. The former is implied by your comment about acting every phase' date=' and would devalue Speed considerably. I have a 3 speed, so I'll Dodge in Segment 1, act normally in 3, Dodge again in 4 and so on. I'll have the benefits of Dodge in all segments except the ones I act in.[/quote']

 

That is correct. In my original application above you could act up to 12 times if you really wanted to. Given peoples' responses thus far I am beginning to see this is a *bad* idea that would cause too much reworking of the meta-rules - which is something I *didn't* want to do.

 

You'll have to reset base running at 1" to get normal humans back to their current movement speed if they can move that speed every phase.

4" x 2 meters x 2 noncombat x 12 phases x 5 turns = 960 meters per minute, or almost 60 kph running speed for a normal human.

 

Yes, my math was bad

 

Does this mean you are eliminating noncombat multiples entirely' date=' or only the free noncombat multiple?[/quote']

 

Eliminating noncombat multiples entirely. Again, I am beginning to see that it would cause too much [unwanted] reworking.

 

What kind of heroic game? Guns cost no END. This approach will give a huge advantage to characters whose abilities cost little or no END. I think you're brushing that concern off far too lightly.

 

I thought that anything that had a STRMin required END usage - don't guns have a STRMin?

 

But yes, I do see your point - anything bought with a 0 END advantage would suddenly become extremely powerful.

 

Ah well.

 

I like some of the other ideas posted here, with regard to maximum movement per turn regardless of SPD, or having continuous actions that can span multiple consecutive segments - I'll have to look into those.

 

Once more, thanks to all for the replies - this is certainly a very lively board, and I very much appreciate everyone's participation!

[Manic Typist]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Double the cost of END for movement outside of your Phase. This represents you rushing yourself, pushing yourself, an all out deseperate sprint etc. Maybe have the same effects on DCV as NonCom movement. Instead of pacing yourself, you are hitting the wall, so to say.

 

 

Just a thought.

[counterveil]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Here's what I do.

Movement Rate per Turn instead of per Phase:

 

Do Movement Rate x2 per Turn = effectively no change for 2 SPD Characters others have to buy up their movement power instead of SPD to move faster.

 

E.G., Run 6" per Phase

= Run 12" per Turn

= Run 1" per Segment (when you want that extra detail).

 

Hierax, how do you handle non-combat multipliers?

 

I think I am going to use a modification of your rules above as they're fairly simple and solve the issues I currently have. Basically:

 

Max Move / Turn = (x 2) x 2

*I multiply by 2 first for non-combat movement, and then by 2 for average 2 SPD

 

Thus an average person can perform ground movement of 24" / Turn maximum regardless of SPD [(6"x2) x2]. This is around 4m per second (14.4km/h or 9mph).

 

The most one can move in a given phase is still governed by their ( x ).

 

For the sake of simplicity I will probably *not* stage movement over several segments.

 

High-SPD characters will not be penalized by these rulings (other than removing the movement multiplier normally given by SPD). SPD will then reflect their ability to *act* faster. In fact, a high SPD character can move the same distance as a lower SPD character in a turn but perform more actions along the way. Because they have such a high SPD they can opt *not* to use non-combat movement to move the maximum allowable distance in a Turn.

 

Example:

 

Bob the Postman (Run 6", SPD 2) wants to run from one end of the block to the other (48"). He is limited by his maximum movement per turn of 24" so he'll only get halfway at the end of phase 12. There are a bunch of zombies in the way though. He breaks into a dead run on phase 6 and gets 1/4 of the way there (12"). At the end of phase 12 he'll be halfway there (24"). During this entire time he is at OCV0 and at lowered DCV, subject to attacks from the zombies.

 

Dan the Apprentice Ninja (Run 6", SPD 4) wants to run that same distance (48"). He is also limited by his max movement per turn of 24" so only will get halfway there at the end of phase 12. However, unlike Bob he can split his movement into 4 phases (6" per phase) so can utilize Combat Movement and perform Move-Throughs on the Zombies as necessary. His higher SPD allows him more flexibility and choice in action, while still allowing him to cover the same total distance as Bob the Postman.

 

I think I like it so far...will have to actually playtest this to see if it works for my group.

 

Thanks again to all for the awesome suggestions.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

 

I think I like it so far...will have to actually playtest this to see if it works for my group.

 

Thanks again to all for the awesome suggestions.

 

Another thing I see as a possiblility.. perhaps an adder or advantage on movement that allows a greater than the normal turn movement limit (or maybe just extra movement with the limitation that it only adds to increase the maximum move per turn).

This would be for the speedster characters who buy movement for combat effect like velocity based damage, who intend to move thier entire combat move every attack phase.

 

For example Ken the speedster has 15" of running, an 7 speed and a speedster martial art with a passing strike.

His maximum move per turn, according to the above would be 60". However if he plans to passing strike every phase, a common tactical choice, he'd be only able to do that 4 of his phases- leaving 3 phases without what might be his primary attack.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Some examples of repeated actions are running, or laying down suppression fire. These are relatively simple tasks that anyone can keep doing. Once a repeated action is started, it can be stopped any time, but the character then has to wait for their phase to come up before they can do anything besides stop. In Hero, you should allow a repeated action to be replaced by an Abort, where the Abort is any normal defensive maneuver.

 

This sounds like a logical take on how actions are really performed. The one problem that immediately comes to mind is attacks with a continuous nature, like a Choke Hold. Do I get to do damage on every Segment because it is a repeated action? Then again, this is a glitch in the current HERO system because a character with a SPD 6 can choke someone to death twice as fast as a character with a SPD 3 (assuming the damage dice are the same) which makes no sense. I do not want to hijack the thread about this scenario in particular, but if you are going to tinker with the SPD rules it is something to take into account.

 

__________________________________________________________

One day I will learn how to quote other posts in my own - OS

[gojira]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

This sounds like a logical take on how actions are really performed. The one problem that immediately comes to mind is attacks with a continuous nature' date=' like a Choke Hold.[/quote']

 

Right. Or as someone pointed out above, a Recovery needs to be limited too, because you shouldn't normally let someone Recover for each of 12 phases.

 

I haven't ever tried this in play (for Hero, anyway) so I don't know what's the best answer. For some things, it might be best to look at the SFX, and apply a reasoble limit. Real workd items like machine guns or tear gas might do damage every phase. SPD also represents combat training, so maybe it's reasoble for a SPD 4 character to choke someone twice as fast a a SPD normal. Or maybe not, it kinda depends on the group.

 

Being more super hero oriented, I would let SPD play a larger role. In Pulp and Fantasy games, you might want to go more by SFX and common sense. Hmm, maybe reducing the Choke and other continuing damage the same way movement is averaged out. So a Choke as a Repeated Action would do somewhat less damage per phase than regular Choke maneuver.

 

Choke is 2d6 NND... hmm, would 0.5 pip per phase work? It's more book keeping than 1 per phase, but 1 per phase is a heck of a bonus when you get all 12 phases. Maybe a reduced DCV in addition would balance things out so that 1 pip NND damage per phase is more balanced. I'm not totally sure however.

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Hierax' date=' how do you handle non-combat multipliers?[/quote']

Non-Combat Movement isn't any different than the standard game, just multiply them as usual -- Average Guy:

• 12" Combat Movement per Turn (6"x2)

• 24" Non-Combat Movement per Turn (6"x2x2)

As you say the SPD now only affects how many actions a character gets instead of how fast they move. But they do get more distinct chunks (Phases) of movement which will still make them seem faster (more maneuverable) in terms of avoiding things (like zombies!!!) and maneuvering around them.

 

Fair Warning though:

 

N.B., However, there is something to be careful of when using Movement per Turn is that it makes "Segmented Movement" option appealing: Sometimes you have to be careful that slower SPD characters don't get more movement than higher SPD characters on a certain Phase

-- E.G., assume 6" --> 12" Movement:

• Slower: SPD 2 gets 6" on each phase (Phases 6 and 12)
  
  
• Faster: SPD 3 gets 4" on each phase (Phases 4, 8, and 12)

At the END of his First Phase (Phase 6) the "slower" SPD 2 Character has moved 6" (1/2 his 12") but the "faster" SPD 3 Character has only moved 4" (1/3 his 12"). You won't get this problem with SPD 4 vs. SPD 2 though.

Also, some movements rates don't nicely divide by Phase -- E.G., SPD 5 with 12"/turn, so you may find yourself tweaking movement rates to get things to divide out more evenly or rounding things off on different phases.

 

These are probably the reasons why the standard rules use Movement by SPD/Phase instead of by Turn. But if you really want more realism and detail the Movement by Turn with Segmented Movement works well but it requires a bit more time to get that detail ... remember thought that Movement per Turn has a few little things that aren't immediately apparent so you might not want to use it all of the time...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Actions Per Phase

The first thing is, *you can act on any phase*. Acting on an off-phase to your SPD creates a penalty (I'm thinking -4 or more) to any non-defensive action that requires a roll of the dice - therefore, attacking off-phase can be done, but is generally bad since you're trying to act too quickly and are prone to make mistakes. Additionally, actions which require END usage *still* require END usage. Acting on every phase is going to burn your END quickly.

An interesting idea. But if you know your CV is significantly higher than your opponent's, the -4 penalty might not be enough of a deterrent. And Reduced END makes it much easier. If you're going to do something like this, make sure the penalties are substantial, and really have an effect. A player should have to seriously weigh the benefits and the risks. Off the top of my head, I'd suggest a DCV penalty for actions on off-phases, say -2, perhaps even cumulative per action until your next "real phase", and maybe a flat END cost for doing any action, in addition to, and regardless of the END cost of the action itself, say 5 END. Another possibility is to lose the post-12 if you do any off-phase actions. After all, if you take a recovery, you have to voluntarily give up a phase, so why not require giving up the recovery to take the extra action? You could even let that -4 affect all dice rolls, including Skill rolls, PER rolls, DFC rolls, (maybe even Activation rolls, depending on SFX).

 

You might also consider forbidding certain types of actions "off-phase," such as Dodge.

 

Taking Recovery

Obviously it would become very easy to fully recover END just by spending an off-phase resting. I'll have to figure out some way to solve this since I like the option of doing this, but don't want it to become something cheesy, rules-wise.

That's easy - you can only take a recovery on a real phase, not on an off-phase.

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Counterveil, I am sympathetic to your concerns, but I don't like your solution, mainly because I think it mucks with things more than necessary. I think that for most Champions games, a change would be theoretically desirable, but may be more trouble than its worth. For heroic level games, my current thinking is that some kind of change is called for.

 

Here's what I do.

Movement Rate per Turn instead of per Phase:

(I overlooked some of the details of your second post before I wrote this, including the fact that it was you. Rather than revising this a second time before posting, I'm going to put it out there "as is". My intention had been to reply next to "that other guy" (your second post), so maybe I'll still do that.)

 

I like an approach along these lines, but there are still details to be worked out (which you might have done, but have not told us here):

 

1. How much does speed cost? One could use the current costs, while requiring higher-speed normals to sell back running, but I think repricing makes more sense. I'm thinking 8 points (something like a -1/4 limitation on speed -- does not add to movement, though I would not let players exploit rounding here; as in the standard rules, if you pay for 2.9 speed, you have a 2 speed). A -1/2 limitation is also worth considering.

 

Do Movement Rate x2 per Turn = effectively no change for 2 SPD Characters others have to buy up their movement power instead of SPD to move faster.

 

E.G., Run 6" per Phase

= Run 12" per Turn

2. How do you handle a move rate per turn not divisible by the character's speed? At least initially, I would not allow it. If my group got comfortable with this approach and liked it, I might consider changing this.

 

I think my approach would be slightly different from yours. You seem to be suggesting that all rates of movement/turn will be divisible by two. I would have characters buy movement per turn instead of movement per phase. Your approach is perhaps simpler, but mine avoids the messiness of movement rates not divisible by speed.

 

3. How much does movement cost? Considerations are similar to 1 above. I would advocate 1/2 the cost given in the rules (but would NOT treat this as a limitation; I'd start with half cost and then apply any lims). This is, of course, movement per turn, not per phase. (Perhaps another advantage of your approach; it might be OK to leave movement costs alone).

 

4. How do you handle formulas involving velocity, such as move-through damage? Unless I'm missing something, this is easy. STR + (V/6) where V is velocity in inches per turn. Same approach for move-by's etc. (Though again, advantage to you, your approach leaves the formulas unchanged).

 

I seem to be convincing myself that your idea is better than mine. I will have to give this more thought; I was about 3/4 done before I even realized that your approach is not identical to mine. (Here's another complication I haven't thought through yet: how does one handle discontinuous movement forms like leaping and teleporting?)

 

= Run 1" per Segment (when you want that extra detail).

I think this seemingly-innocuous addition opens a big can of worms. I have in the past considered making all movement quasi-continuous. However, I currently disfavor that solution on the grounds that it (A) slows down combat too much and ( changes fundamental rules too much. (Consider: what is a full move? what is a half move? what if one is in the middle of moving and wants to fire a gun?) If I were designing my own RPG, I might take this approach -- if "segments" were long enough -- but I tthink it will have too far-reaching consequences as a change to HERO. I would advocate noo specific rules for movement broken down that far (GM judgement could still be applied in individual cases).

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

High-SPD characters will not be penalized by these rulings (other than removing the movement multiplier normally given by SPD). SPD will then reflect their ability to *act* faster. In fact, a high SPD character can move the same distance as a lower SPD character in a turn but perform more actions along the way. Because they have such a high SPD they can opt *not* to use non-combat movement to move the maximum allowable distance in a Turn.

 

Example:

 

Bob the Postman (Run 6", SPD 2) wants to run from one end of the block to the other (48"). He is limited by his maximum movement per turn of 24" so he'll only get halfway at the end of phase 12. There are a bunch of zombies in the way though. He breaks into a dead run on phase 6 and gets 1/4 of the way there (12"). At the end of phase 12 he'll be halfway there (24"). During this entire time he is at OCV0 and at lowered DCV, subject to attacks from the zombies.

 

Dan the Apprentice Ninja (Run 6", SPD 4) wants to run that same distance (48"). He is also limited by his max movement per turn of 24" so only will get halfway there at the end of phase 12. However, unlike Bob he can split his movement into 4 phases (6" per phase) so can utilize Combat Movement and perform Move-Throughs on the Zombies as necessary. His higher SPD allows him more flexibility and choice in action, while still allowing him to cover the same total distance as Bob the Postman.

I think my comments here are consistent with Hierax's second post: Dan should still have to use noncombat movement to move 24" per phase. His advantage over Bob is just that he can do more attacks or other non-movement actions (including more move-by's, if he doesn't want to slow down). Or, he could do two attacks and still move 10" in combat (two 2" half moves and two 3" full moves), whereas Bob can only move 6" in combat if he attacks twice (two 3" half moves). Also, depending on how strict you are with rules about holding action, Dan might have a greater ability to react to others' actions in deciding how he moves.

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

To be clear, I guess I should have said that if you want to try it, movement per turn offers some neat options but it does tend to cause a bunch of problems that aren't immediately obvious.

 

It can work if you can work around these problems with tweaks and careful builds but buying down the per Phase movement of high SPD characters who need a lot of actions but are not "Speedsters" so that they get a more reasonable amount of per turn movement addresses the problem without the complications. (conceptually it isn't as nice but it seems to work better in practice, at least as far as I've been able to figure out)

 

I tried it out but wasn't able to successfully get through all these problems without extra hoop-jumping or carefully balanced builds (easy division) -- so I'd only use it sparingly but the original poster was bothered by the SPD movement problem, so I mentioned what I tried.

 

That said, I still really like the concept of "per turn movement" (makes more sense making actions in combat and movement speeds distinct in a point system) and maybe someone else with a better 'Heroized brain' has more successfully by-passed these issues. Play with it and see if you can make this seemingly simple change work better/cleaner/smoother... I'd really like to see it work out fully with all character builds instead of specifically balanced ones...

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

N.B.' date=' However, there is [b']something to be careful of when using Movement per Turn[/b] is that it makes "Segmented Movement" option appealing: Sometimes you have to be careful that slower SPD characters don't get more movement than higher SPD characters on a certain Phase

-- E.G., assume 6" --> 12" Movement:

• Slower: SPD 2 gets 6" on each phase (Phases 6 and 12)
  
  
• Faster: SPD 3 gets 4" on each phase (Phases 4, 8, and 12)

At the END of his First Phase (Phase 6) the "slower" SPD 2 Character has moved 6" (1/2 his 12") but the "faster" SPD 3 Character has only moved 4" (1/3 his 12"). You won't get this problem with SPD 4 vs. SPD 2 though.

I don't think it's a big problem if slower SPD characters get more movement than higher SPD characters on a certain Phase. Heck, with the standard rules, a 2 SPD character often moves 6" in Phase 6 while a 3 SPD character usually moves 0". OK, maybe that misses your point, and in fact, the problem can be worse. A lower speed character can get an early lead that the higher speed character cannot make up. For example, we could modify your example above by having the "race" start in segment 6 (where the higher speed character was not ready). Actually, every phase 12 will present this problem: lower speeds go further in phase 12, at the end of each subsequent turn that lead is maintained. And this problem even applies between SPD 2 & 4.

 

I am not sure what the best solution is. I'm inclined to think that on the phase 12 that begins combat everyone's movement in that phase should be speed-independent (e.g., movement per turn divided by two). This only solves half of the problem, though. But in any event, I think the approaches we discuss are better than the standard rules. Consider the case where you want to build a character who is faster thinking and better trained to deal with emergencies than most people, but who runs no faster than average. The standard build would be something like 3 SPD, 6" running. But this build fails to match what we are looking for. We may be accustomed to this problem, but if we accept this design, then we are accepting a huge flaw: the character goes 1.5 times as fast as we want him to. That's A LOT faster. So suppose we buy down his running to 4". Then we end up in a situation that is essentially identical to the one created by our proposed alternate rules, plus the additional problem that he does less damage with move-bys and such (and takes less from being tripped). So the official rules have the same problems; they just hide them by encouraging us to build our high SPD characters so that they run quickly (. . . without that increased velocity affecting move-throughs and such).

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Also' date=' some movements rates don't nicely divide by Phase -- E.G., SPD 5 with 12"/turn, so you may find yourself tweaking movement rates to get things to divide out more evenly or rounding things off on different phases.[/quote'] That's not so bad. My suggestion has the slight advantage that movement per turn (MPT) need only be divisible by SPD. Yours requires (or makes desirable) that odd-SPD characters also have MPT divisible by two. (See my post on page 1).

 

These are probably the reasons why the standard rules use Movement by SPD/Phase instead of by Turn ... remember thought that Movement per Turn has a few little things that aren't immediately apparent so you might not want to use it all of the time...

I haven't seen any problems worse than the official rules have. Are there other problems you haven't mentioned?

 

To be clear' date=' I guess I should have said that if you want to try it, movement per turn offers some neat options but it does tend to cause a bunch of problems that aren't immediately obvious.[/quote']IBID.

 

It can work if you can work around these problems with tweaks and careful builds but buying down the per Phase movement of high SPD characters who need a lot of actions but are not "Speedsters" so that they get a more reasonable amount of per turn movement addresses the problem without the complications. (conceptually it isn't as nice but it seems to work better in practice' date=' at least as far as I've been able to figure out).[/quote']One of us is missing something. (I'm not being snide . . . I genuinely don't which of the two of is the one who is missing something). See my post above. How does buying down the per Phase movement of high SPD characters and using the standard rules get rid of the problems we're discussing?

 

I tried it out but wasn't able to successfully get through all these problems without extra hoop-jumping or carefully balanced builds (easy division) -- so I'd only use it sparingly but the original poster was bothered by the SPD movement problem, so I mentioned what I tried.

 

That said, I still really like the concept of "per turn movement" (makes more sense making actions in combat and movement speeds distinct in a point system) and maybe someone else with a better 'Heroized brain' has more successfully by-passed these issues. Play with it and see if you can make this seemingly simple change work better/cleaner/smoother... I'd really like to see it work out fully with all character builds instead of specifically balanced ones...

I wouldn't think the balancing issue would be that bad. It should become second nature. Does the slight tweak of my idea help? (e.g., 3 SPD character could move 9" or 15" or 21" per turn, not just 6", 18" or 24"). I don't know if my brain is "Heroized" better than yours, but I'm tempted to think that both of our (similar) ideas are better than the official rules. If we continue to discuss these ideas (hopefully with the help of others), we might be able to improve them even more.

 

Can anyone find some other big problem with Hierax's and my suggestions that I'm missing?

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Heck, with the standard rules, a 2 SPD character often moves 6" in Phase 6 while a 3 SPD character usually moves 0". OK, maybe that misses your point, and in fact, the problem can be worse. A lower speed character can get an early lead that the higher speed character cannot make up.

 

For example, we could modify your example above by having the "race" start in segment 6 (where the higher speed character was not ready). Actually, every phase 12 will present this problem: lower speeds go further in phase 12, at the end of each subsequent turn that lead is maintained. And this problem even applies between SPD 2 & 4.

I was looking at how much they move by Phase 6 not in Phase 6 (cumulative total for the Turn).

 

Also, I should say that I start a Turn in Phase 1, so with that you don't have the everyone going on Phase 12 problem, but this is a change from the standard starting on Segment 12. This just seems more logical to me.

 

I guess my main problem is that I have a pet peeve for round numbers and the non-divisible by SPD x movements bother me. Hence the buying Movement Down (and sometimes Up) to adjust to fit.

 

Maybe it's really not such a big deal afterall, I guess one could just work up a chart with roundings nicely divided (sorry without HTML it's hard so show this well on the boards):

 

E.G., 6" Movement --> 12" per Turn

 

SPD: Phase#=Movement (cumulative total in the Turn)

1. SPD 1: 7=12"(12").
   
2. SPD 2: 6=6"(6"), 12=6"(12").
   
3. SPD 3: 4=4"(4"), 8=4"(8"), 12=4"(12").
   
4. SPD 4: 3=3"(3"), 6=3"(6"), 9=3"(9"), 12=3"(12").
   
5. SPD 5: 3=2"(2"), 5=3"(5"), 8=2"(7"), 10=3"(10"), 12=2"(12"). [2.4" rounded]
   
6. SPD 6: 2=2"(2"), 4=2"(4"), 6=2"(6"), 8=2"(8"), 10=2"(10"), 12=2"(12").
   
7. SPD 7: 2=2"(2"), 4=1"(3"), 6=2"(5"), 7=2"(7"), 9=2"(9"), 11=1"(10"), 12=2"(12"). [1.71... rounded]
   
8. SPD 8: 2=2"(2"), 3=1"(3"), 5=2"(5"), 6=1"(6"), 8=2"(8"), 9=1"(9"), 11=2"(11"), 12=1"(12"). [1.5 rounded]

But I still see problem break-points that need Buy-Down/Up tweaking. And you'd pretty much have to work out a table with the rounded SPD for every Movement/SPD combination -- that's a lot of permutations to detail! And theres too many different break points to make adjustments for all Movement/SPD combinations so that you don't have slower moving more than faster. Maybe with some more persistence it could work but I'm not convinced so I didn't bother.

 

Hence the Segmented Movement use to avoid these problems. I just wish that Segmented Movement didn't take so long to resolve because it is so much more detailed.

 

It's kinda hard to explain but hopefully the above list and imagining other lists/tables like it gives you an idea of why it's a bit more complicated that it first seems.

 

If you can live with the slower SPD character moving cumulatively more in a turn on a given phase than a faster SPD character then this isn't a big deal. But I do think that is is a concern.

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

I was looking at how much they move by Phase 6 not in Phase 6 (cumulative total for the Turn)..

I see.

 

Also' date=' I should say that I [b']start a Turn in Phase 1[/b], so with that you don't have the everyone going on Phase 12 problem, but this is a change from the standard starting on Segment 12. This just seems more logical to me.

That does solve some problems.

 

And quoting your last comment out of order . . .

 

If you can live with the slower SPD character moving cumulatively more in a turn on a given phase than a faster SPD character then this isn't a big deal. But I do think that it is a concern.

I think it is a minor concern, but I can live with it, and I think you should be able to as well because:

 

(a) it's a consequence of the standard rules, so your and my movement per turn (MPT) approaches don't create a new problem, they just faill to solve all of the old ones,

 

( the lower speed character does not have an advantage in races (at least not if we use your start on segment 1 rule or adopt another fix, such as treating everyone as speed 2 for the initial phase 12), the higher and lower speed characters just trade leads, and

 

© GM judgement can always impose segment-by-segment movement or a rough equivalent in the rare cases where this small difference matters.

 

I guess my main problem is that I have a pet peeve for round numbers and the non-divisible by SPD x movements bother me. Hence the buying Movement Down (and sometimes Up) to adjust to fit.

 

Maybe it's really not such a big deal afterall, I guess one could just work up a chart with roundings nicely divided . . .

 

[Chart omitted]

 

. . . But I still see problem break-points that need Buy-Down/Up tweaking. And you'd pretty much have to work out a table with the rounded SPD for every Movement/SPD combination -- that's a lot of permutations to detail! And theres too many different break points to make adjustments for all Movement/SPD combinations so that you don't have slower moving more than faster. Maybe with some more persistence it could work but I'm not convinced so I didn't bother.

I like the general approach you used in your chart, but I think we can and should avoid a chart altogether. My initial thought that what you called "careful builds" were the way to go, and that they would not present much of a problem. On further consideration, I think that such builds are a bit more limiting than I initially realized. I see two main possible solutions:

 

1. A compromise: semi-careful builds + a simple rule capturing the main idea of your chart, or

 

2. Use my MPT approach rather than your own.

 

For the sake of digestibility, I will discuss this in another post (if time allows, to be posted soon after this one).

[Just Joe]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

OK, I think it will be helpful to look at a moderate variety of cases as they are handled by the standard rules, your (Hierax's*) MPT approach, and my MPT approach. I want a big enough variety to illustrate the main issues, but not so big as to be overwhelming. Let us take running MPT ranging from 12" ("average") to 24" (twice "average"). As for speeds, 1 is boring**, and 2 gets treated virtually identically by the three different approaches, so the lowest I will consider is 3. I will also look at speeds 4 and 5, for two reasons: because I see MPT as much more valuable for heroic level games (where speeds above 5 are very rare) than for superheroic ones, and because 5 is the lowest number that can cause ugly rounding problems. So here we go.

 

Standard rules:

Speed 3 can have running of 4", 5", 6", 7", or 8", yielding an MPT of 12", 15", 18", 21", or 24".

Speed 4 can have running of 3", 4", 5", or 6", yielding an MPT of 12", 16", 20", or 24".

Speed 5 can have running of 3" or 4", yielding an MPT of 15", or 20". (2" or 5" per phase would yield respective MPT's of 10" and 25".)

 

Notice that the standard rules cause a problem: for any given MPT range, higher speed characters have fewer choices of MPT than lower speed characters. For example, a speed 5 character can't have average running speed! This problem is the other side of the problem of the hassle of characters with MPT's not divisible by their speed. We each have to decide how to balance these two problems.

 

Your approach:

A character of any speed can have running of 6", 7", 8", 9" 10", 11" or 12", yielding an MPT of 12", 14", 16", 18", 20", "22" or 24".

Speed 3 has no rounding problems with MPT of 12", 18", or 24".

Speed 4 has no rounding problems with MPT of 12", 16", 20", or 24".

Speed 5 has no rounding problems with MPT of 20".

 

So your approach presents greater rounding difficulties than the standard rules, hence making the "careful builds" inconvenient (e.g., a carefully built 5 speed character who runs faster than average must run A LOT faster, and exactly as fast as -- or else twice as fast as -- other reasonably realistic 5 speed characters).

 

If we are to use your approach, we will probably want a rule that allows for some MPT's not divisible by speed, but I don't think that means we need to allow for all such possibilities. I would allow any possibly MPT for 3 speed. I would simply alternate between rounding up and rounding down, restarting the pattern at the beginning of each turn (which meshes nicely with your rule of staring each combat in phase1). Hence speed 3, MPT 14 would go 5", 4", 5"; 5", 4", 5" and

speed 3, MPT 16 would go 5", 6", 5"; 5", 6", 5".

For speed 4, I would allow any MPT divisible by 2 (which is any MPT that can result from your approach anyway). I’d probably round up on phases 3 and 9, down on phases 6 and 12.

For speed 5, I would allow MPT’s that, when divided by 5, yield a remainder of 2 or 3. I would alternate as per 3 speed.

Hence speed 5, MPT 12 would go 2", 3", 2", 3", 2"; 2", 3", 2", 3", 2" and

speed 5, MPT 18 would go 4", 3", 4", 3", 4"; 4", 3", 4", 3", 4".

I would reject remainders of 1 (e.g., MPT 16”) or 4 (e.g., MPT 14”) as too much hassle.

 

Combined with my rounding recommendations, your approach yields the following results:

Speed 3 can have running of any value from 6" to 12", yielding an MPT of any even value from 12", to 24".

Speed 4 can have running of any value from 6" to 12", yielding an MPT of any even value from 12", to 24".

Speed 5 can have running of 6", 9”, 10” or 11", yielding an MPT of 12", 18”, 20", or 22"

 

For speeds of 6 or higher, you can follow the pattern: MPT/speed must be either an integer or a yield a fraction that can be dealt with by alternating between rounding up and rounding down (in either order as needed, and restarting each turn).

 

My approach:

A character buys MPT for each form of movement directly (for running, starting from a base of 12”), for half the cost given in the standard rules. If I were to stringently avoid rounding problems (i.e., require that MPT/speed be an integer) then the resulting MPT’s would match those of the standard rules (again, assuming we are looking at MPT’s ranging from 12” to 24”). Suppose instead I allow remainders in the manner I recommended for use with your approach? Then:

 

Speed 3 can have running MPT of any value from 12” to 24" (as could speed 2, it now occurs to me).

Speed 4 can have running MPT of any even value from 12” to 24" (same as your approach with my rounding suggestion).

Speed 5 can have running MPT of 12", 13”, 15", 17”, 18”, 20", “22”, or 23" (i.e., any value from 12” to 24" except 14”, 16”, 19”, 21”, or 24").

 

I’ll have to go back later and carefully reread my post in which I was convincing myself that your approach is better than mine, as the above analysis leaves me favoring mine. It gives the largest variety of possible MPT’s, and it does so without the need for a complex chart or rule.

 

Note that regardless of other details, your and my approaches both remove the contradiction present in the standard rules between MPT and “velocity”. On the hand, also note that I have yet to solve the problem of how to deal with leaping and teleporting (though I have some ideas, and have not yet made a concerted effort to solve these problems).

 

Are you still with me? If so, what do you think?

 

* This post is addressed to Hierax, but I certainly hope others will read it and reply.

 

** To keep speed 1 characters from getting a big jump on speed 2's (and others) I would institute 1 special rule to say that speed 1's can only move 1/2 their MPT on phase 7, and must wait until phase 12 to move the rest.

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Thanks, Joe!

 

You've given me a lot to think about.

 

I'll take another crack at doing "Movement per Turn" House Rule and might even get it to work this time around. But I don't think I can contribute much right now as my head is more into some other "real life" things that I need to deal with these days.

 

Keep the posts coming though, I'm eager to see what you come up with.

[Hierax]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

Another quick thought here:

 

Maybe the SPD chart could be tweaked to avoid the slower going faster by Segment X problem.

 

I haven't worked it through but it's an idea so crazy it might just work...

[SteveZilla]

Re: Yet Another Alternate SPD Rules Thread

 

These aren't bad ideas' date=' they are pretty good in fact. Some problems have already been pointed out. I think the biggest is that SPD is 10 points per pip, and Running is 2 points per 1". Trying to change Running and SPD is going to cause huge point balance problems.[/quote']

 

Changing how Speed and inches of movement interact will have to deal with the following:

 

1. Calculation of Move-By/Through damage

2. Turn Modes

3. Adjustment Powers (Aid/Succor, Drain, Transfer, Suppress, etc.)

4. What about Gliding, Swinging, and especially Teleportation?

 

Some of these rules suggested will (IMO) greatly penalize the primary asset of Speedsters. To achieve even modest super-speeds, Speedsters will have to dump a lot more points into their movement.

 

I have no real problem with the Speed Chart and its effect on Combat Movement Velocity. It may produce a dichotomy at times, but I see that as a generally unavoidable byproduct of translating something that happens in real-time into a time-segmented system. Especially if one wants to keep a handle on bookkeeping and simplicity.