Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

[atlascott]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Yeah, Hugh, in my FH game, up to 15 is standard cost; 16-20 2x cost; 21-25 is 3x, and so it goes with the Primaries. Even with the figured Characteristics, I make them pay multiples for figured level beyond a maxed primary, if that makes sense without further explanation.

 

I wouldnt do this in a Champs game with no Normal Char Maxima. I'd set a skill level cap on CSL's--no more than 2 generals, no more than 6 or 8 under any circumstances.

[atlascott]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

What I suspect you'll find is more unbalancing is the +5 martial arts DC's. Thats huge. Like Champions huge. We made extra DC's a stopsign' date=' with no more that 2 extra MA DC's allowed, ever. Otherwise, Martial Arts become a requirement to keep up... nothing else is as efficient in a Heroic level game.[/quote']

 

Here's why Im not so sure about this. First, there is a limit to how much damage any weapon can do, regardless of means--and that is, 2x the stated damage. Strength, MA, CSL's, whatever, if your 1 1/2d6 sword is as maxed as it can be, it will only ever do 3d6, period. Exceptions in my game are: magic, which is really rare but about to become less-so, and there is a Perk that can add a d6 killing to the base damage of the weapon. So basically, even if somone BUYS +5 DC, they are only going to APPLY it to their 1d6k sword if they are unable to add to the DC via strength or some other means, and then it is over with.

 

Barehanded, maybe a bit more of a concern, but not much more. No hard limits on hand to hand damage. So your 3d6 STR 15 punch becomes an 8d6 punch. Wow, that's alot of damage. But, it also costs alot of points, and is still the equivalent of a 2d6K attack, and applies against a more common species of defense (normal defense).

 

So, not so imbalancing, IMO.

[atlascott]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

The math alone reveals that it would be unbalancing in a typical supers game.

 

I do not suggest hit locations in supers games. Use the chart for a called shot, and add a dc or two, or let the character take max damage or something, but the numbers do not seem to make sense in a supers game.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

BTW, "make everyone an archer" isn't the conclusion I would reach. A swordsman can just as easily have Martial Arts with his sword, doubling his maximum damage, and buy the same PSL's.

 

Yeah, but an archer can use his RKA at point blank range but a swordsman cannot throw his sword. If you are going to spend the same amount of points why would you not choose the one that is both ranged AND HTH?

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Here's why Im not so sure about this. First' date=' there is a limit to how much damage any weapon can do, regardless of means--and that is, 2x the stated damage. Strength, MA, CSL's, whatever, if your 1 1/2d6 sword is as maxed as it can be, it will only ever do 3d6, period. [/quote']

 

Battle Axes and Long bows are 4D6 when doubled. Great longbows, Great Axes, etc. are 4 1/2D6

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I'm curious how many points you're playing with. 8 PSL's for bows would cost at least 12 points. +5 DC's with Martial maneuvers is 20 more. 5 CSL's is at least 15. That's 47 points' date=' and you still need to pay for stats, weapon familiarities, the basic martial arts maneuvers, etc. Unless the character is built solely for combat, that's likely not affordable on a 150 point character.[/quote']

 

Here is what I have. It is a rough draft. I double point cost for strength. Please excuse the way I had to upload the dude.

 

Yes he was built solely for combat. I may impose limitation as I mentioned before to force developement in other areas.

[Eosin]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

A character with a +8 PSL vs Hit locations added to Martial arts feat that adds +5 Damage classes makes for an EXTREMELY leathal character. Such characters are very easy to make when starting out at 150 total points. Every time they shoot or swing something dies or nearly dies. If multiple hits are allowed then the lethality goes up even higher.

 

 

What are your opinoins on this?

 

 

Example characters are rarely (read almost never) made with more than +4 Hit Location Modifiers (head shot when OOC). It is also pretty unusual to see a character built with more than +4 Martial DCs. THis is still tough and can run a heroic game into the ugly zone when someone posts **13-14 DCs as a "normal."

 

** +3 for Brass Knuckles (STR Min 8), +3 for STR (23 STR), +4 for Offensive Strike, +4 for Martial DCs = 14 DC "normal"

 

Look at your Dark Champions, Pulp, or FH books to see what is common and limit the game that way. For our group we use the following...

 

Range Levels

+1-2... Marksman

+3-4... Legendary Marksman (Hathcock)

 

Hit Location

+1-3.... Dead Eye-Richard, or a shooter with a knack for center Mass (Chest Shot)

+4.... Legendary Sniper

 

Skill Levels

+1-2... Skilled

+3-4... Ugly bad monkey

+5-6... He ain't human

+7 or more ...... Batman and Jack Bauer envy him.

 

Normal DCs

5-6... Slugger

7-8 .... Bruce Lee

9-10 .... "You know, Batman throws 9 to 10 DCs"

11-12 .... "Wow, you can beat up Wolverine"

13-14 .... "I didn't say 'you should be able to hang with Spiderman.'"

[Eosin]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Here is what I have. It is a rough draft. I double point cost for strength. Please excuse the way I had to upload the dude.

 

Yes he was built solely for combat. I may impose limitation as I mentioned before to force developement in other areas.

 

 

Wow, this character is so wrong on so many levels. You didn't spend a single point on an ability not usable in combat. Mind you, at least you didn't sell back INT, COM, & EGO to buy Rapid Fire.

 

I am gonna assume that you are new to Point Based RPGs? Level based games force you to spend points to round out your character at least to a minor degree (D20 skills are generally not combat oriented). Point based games work with the assumption that players will build moderately rounded characters - that doesn't mean that everyone does it equally but that players invest something into the character besides; "he kills stuff. Dead. Real Dead."

 

Sometimes even when you can build something it doesn't mean that you should build something.... FREX: no one should take the limitation: Antimatter being, takes damage from all positive matter. You can use the Earth as an Expendible Focus for your spell but that is a real dogish way to destroy the plant for a 30 point spell. You can take these limits but they violate the spirit of the rules.

 

I'd suggest going back to a concept of the character and building something a little more in line with a background and a story rather than the desire to kill Thor with a bow. Look at what the other players in the game have built - OCVs, DCVs, and DCs and come back with something in line with the rest of the party (if this is in line with the party then more power to you guys, keep on rockin).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Yeah' date=' but an archer can use his RKA at point blank range but a swordsman cannot throw his sword. If you are going to spend the same amount of points why would you not choose the one that is both ranged AND HTH?[/quote']

 

Don't Bows have the Concentrate limitation? I'm not sure I want to lower my DCV at point blank range.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Besides, per the Evil Overlord Handbook, anybody caught throwing a sword will be shot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Wow' date=' this character is so wrong on so many levels. You didn't spend a single point on an ability not usable in combat. Mind you, at least you didn't sell back INT, COM, & EGO to buy Rapid Fire.[/quote']

 

Yup. I also see some holes.

 

2 point CSL's gets you +4 OCV with a single attack. They only work for one maneuver with your long bow. Is that a normal strike, or one of your three martial maneuvers?

 

The character is a high offense, low defense character IMO. He'll have a few extra defense points from armor (but too much and he starts taking encumbrance penalties). That will leave, say, 8 defenses.

 

Your DCV is 5, 4 with the high damage maneuver, halved to 2 (IIRC) when using the bow. Even with some range penalties, you're a pretty easy target. A 2d6 KA will leak a few BOD past medium armor, and inflict 13 STUN on a chest hit. An above average roll, or an above 6DC attack (the latter seems quite reasonable if you're tossing around 12 DC) and the character is Stunned. Fat chance of getting the opportunity to recover from being stunned.

 

With no skills usable outside combat, the character is a one trick pony.

 

The most critical issue in combat with this character is first shot. A PRE attack would seem very effective in getting a moment's hesitation, and that's really all that's needed.

 

You mention you're new to the game. I would suggest looking over a selection of sample characters to get a better idea of what a more rounded character might look like. A pure combat machine is certainly possible within the rules, but it makes a one dimensional character. It shouldn't be surprising that a character who spends points on only one thing (in your case, offensive bow power) would turn out to be unbalanced.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Don't Bows have the Concentrate limitation? I'm not sure I want to lower my DCV at point blank range.

 

 

Good point. Hopefully for this character not too many people would get too close.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I am gonna assume that you are new to Point Based RPGs? Level based games force you to spend points to round out your character at least to a minor degree (D20 skills are generally not combat oriented). Point based games work with the assumption that players will build moderately rounded characters - that doesn't mean that everyone does it equally but that players invest something into the character besides; "he kills stuff. Dead. Real Dead."

 

Imagine your chance to play a game revolves around two people. One is yourself. The other is your thirteen-year-old son. Not a whole lot of opportunities for epic storylines (yet - maybe in a couple more years).

 

 

 

Am I new to point based games? Yes and No. I played heavily back in the 80's and have not played anything since.

 

Again, the characters built are still, what I consider, rough drafts. The combat I am running is also a "rough draft" I do not have anything to compare the characters with (i mean with other people who are playing). I tried out a scenario I made up, and I quickly saw that the way I built the characters was WAY over the top. I do realize that not everything that CAN be done SHOULD be done, that is why I started this tread in regards to balance.

 

Again, I will probably keep the point base of the characters the same but use restrictions as mentioned before to force points to be spent elsewhere. Perhaps some KS:Basket Weaving will be what the archer needs.

[Barton]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Do you apply such limits? If so' date=' what?[/quote']

 

No more than +4 in my Pulp or Champions games to PSL or CSL levels. More than that REQUIRES a really GOOD explaination and GM approval (translate very, very , rare). That keeps it in balance IMHO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Good point. Hopefully for this character not too many people would get too close.

 

A fantasy game with no attacks from ambush, or occuring in close quarters? Seems less than likely.

 

More to the point, your DCV is reduced regardless of how close the opponent is, although if he's far enough away, it may improve a bit for range modifiers.

 

I also generally adopt the premise that PC's, especially starting PC's, aren't all that unique. So if a starting Archer has 8 PSL's against hit locations, so do a lot of other 150 point builds. It's amazing how people realize the balance issue so much quicker when the exact same build that seemed perfectly reasonable appears on their opponent's character sheet.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Again' date=' I will probably keep the point base of the characters the same but use restrictions as mentioned before to force points to be spent elsewhere. Perhaps some KS:Basket Weaving will be what the archer needs.[/quote']

 

"Noncombat" need not equate to "useless".

 

What about some interaction skills? These are very helpful in finding things, especially if adventures will include problems that can't be solved by killing anything in your way.

 

Perhaps some skills in the manufacture and maintenance of bows and arrows might be in order. Most source material characters who are that good with a bow aren't buying their arrows at the general store.

 

The character has obviously been highly trained - should his mentor be a Contact of some sort?

 

I'm not sure of the character's back story, but some skills in hunting, animla lore, etc. make a lot of sense if he's the classic Woodsman Archer. If he's a soldier, some skills derived from his service would seem logical. Some skills to flesh out an urban background would also be appropriate.

 

The character as written serves only one purpose: he's an engine of death. he has no skills to figure out who the bad huys are, or to locate them, or to do anything besides kill whatever he's pointed at. To me, that's not really a "character", just some statistics jumbled up on the page.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I also generally adopt the premise that PC's' date=' especially starting PC's, aren't all that unique. So if a starting Archer has 8 PSL's against hit locations, so do a lot of other 150 point builds. It's amazing how people realize the balance issue so much quicker when the exact same build that seemed perfectly reasonable appears on their opponent's character sheet.[/quote']

 

Yes, a tact I have taken on a few occasions to illustrate problems with builds. After the game where the group either gets their rear ends handed to them (by a munchkinny build), or totally rolls over (an unbalanced build) a re-skinned PC Ill casually mention, "yeah, I used PC X for the stats on that guy".

 

It usually drives the point home.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberParadigm_KeyNotes.shtml

 

NOT EVERYTHING IS SOLVED BY VIOLENCE

In such a gun happy environment it can be tempting to players to bunny up and make slavering combat monsters with the social skills of a lawnmower. However, this style of play is not conducive to long term enjoyment or versimilitude. It is important for the GM to enforce the social elements of the setting. Social skills matter. Being hooked up and networked matters. Trade skills, particularly techie ones, matter. Knowledge is power and power always matters.

 

The borg'd out super street ronin packing a small arsenal with every point sunk in "KILLIN STUFF" can't make a Fixer trust them enough to contract them, barter with suppliers to get good prices on their gear, rely on a pulled favor to save their bacon when things go bad, info broker for fame and fortune, or hack their way into a security grid to turn off the cameras on a facility they need to hit but can't be seen hitting.

 

Replace tech references with fantasy equivalents....

[Alibear]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

As hugh said.

 

What is his background? Is he a tournament archer, travelling around the country going to fairs and winning purses? Well, if that is the case, traveller and and area knowledge skills spring to mind. Has he picked up any languages on his travels? Can he ride a horse or sail a boat? Does he know how to cook or live off the land as he moves around looking for trouble....eh adventures?

 

Is he a soldier? PS Soldier, PS fletcher or bowyer, language: hand signals, ks history of warfare, ks heraldry, tactics, ks politics, can he read.....etc.

 

Is he a poacher or hunter, is he an assasin or battle mage releasing magical arrows? Does he rob the rich and give to the poor? Was he a farmer, what exactly is his trade? The list is virtually endless, think about your characters whole life not just how to loose arrows.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

After looking at the build and reading the various posts, I built this huge reply, that got wiped out by an ill timed Firefox crash.

 

Oh well.

 

 

I'm curious, and thus have a couple of questions/musings for Azato.

 

#1 Do you have a copy of FH and/or any of the supporting materials? Especially the various Bestiary books? The fact that you produced your archer to be able to kill a troll with a single arrow seems to imply a yes. If you have the materials, you might want to look at the package deals (character templates) for ideas for basic skill packages. They aren't required, by any means, but they do come in very handy for new players of the system. In a similar vein, look at some of the more human scale critters and sample badguys out there

 

#2 Speaking of "an archer who can kill a troll with a single arrow"... sounds like you're basing the combat skills of your archer on the movie version of Legolas. This isn't a problem so much as its an oversight.. Legolas had mad noncombat skills as well. All in all, I'd put him at at LEAST 250 points, probably more. In a game with just you and your 13 year old son, skills will ony serve as much purpose as you place on them, but if either of you ever decide to expad the activiy to include gaming with others, the disconnect is going to be mighty and ugly. You, as an adult, will have an easier time rolling with this, but it could have a nasty effect on your son. If you're looking to gaming, and hero in general, to help him adopt a new hobby that has potential for sneaky educational and social benefits you'll want to accustom him to a more rounded character. Right now, your archer is essentially a videogame character, and not a RPG vidogame at that... hes a shooter. Any sort of challenge or test determined by a skill roll is one that he will almost inevitably fail.

 

 

Some reccomendations.

 

Use Package Deals to start with. They go a ways towards rounding out non combat skills, and often suggest others.

 

I usually aim, as a rough guide, to spend around 1/3 of my points each on Stats, Combat Abilities/Sklls, and Other stuff (including skills, perks, non combat talents etc.). Your archers stats do fall into this range. Stat based Archtypes, such as the classic Barbarian, often bump up the stats as high as 1/2 your starting points, but they suffer in diversity as a result.

 

You might want to do some brainstorming as to why skills exist. Seriously...it sounds like skills are a non-issue for you, and I'm inclined to wonder why. You might want to sit down and watch a couple of movies with the actual intent of spotting when the characters do something that would be considered a skill roll. It'll help you get your head wrapped around the idea of how to build skill based challenges, which encourage non combat task resolution.

 

Set a range for skill levels and the like, like you were considering, and like Eosin gave an example of above. Don't feel locked in by them, but its a pretty good set of guidelines. A character who is supposed to be legendary good can be close to the top of the ranges in a couple of categories, but try not to max everything out.

 

Encourage character Schticks. Something that sets THIS character apart from all the others like him in your campaign world (yeah, I know there are just the two of you... we're playing lets pretend here). Unlike, say D&D3.5 where everyone and their kid sister has the same feats, combat talents and extreme skills should, especially in a lower point game, be fairly uncommon or unique.

 

To illustrate:

Say you follow Eosins scale, say you have the four best archers in the land competing for a kings prize at a tourney. Each has an 18 Dex, +2 Range Levels, +4 Targeting levels, and +5 total combat levels. All are sick at what they do. What distinguishes them?

 

One might have a talent Zen Archer, built as a bunch of additional PSL's (allowing him to make amazing, game rule breaking shots) With Extra Time, 0 DCV Concentrate, Requires an Ego Roll

 

Another might take Hunter: Deadly Blow (Requires a Skill roll: Analyze Prey)

 

Another might have Ranged Martial Arts, and perhaps a few DCV levels limited to counteract the penalties he takes using his bow. He's a veteran solider with pratical experience shooting at people who are trying to make him dead.

 

The last has trained to shoot quick. Some Archers strength so he has ample extra STR compared to his bows requirement, so he can draw it quickly (I may be behind the times... I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but to Rapid Fire bows used to require 5 more STR than the Minimum of the bow, something I still use regardless of the current rules) and some levels with the Rapid Fire Maneuver.

 

Bam. 4 archers who are techincally very similar in raw skill levels, but each has a unique schtick that makes them distinct and diffenrent in play terms. Making your base character the Best in the Land leave you without much challenge, and if you expand to playing with others will result in many unsatifying situations where you are either dominating or totally worthless, and no one will EVER be able to compare to you at your chosen discipline... either they will suck compared to you, or they will have to be specfically designed to be as good or better, at which point your whole core schtick gets trampled into the mud.

 

Just something to think on

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberParadigm_KeyNotes.shtml

 

 

 

Replace tech references with fantasy equivalents....

 

Some fantasy equivalents off the top of my head...

The example character has no social skills, so he can't convince others of anything, nor does he have the skills to resist in opposed rolls. He can be seduced, lied to, fast talked, conned and led astray rather easily.

 

Once he's been seduced, robbed blind, and led astray... now that he's lost in the woods... How does he survive? No Survival Skills... no Tracking. No Area Knowledges, no nada. If his bow was stolen, he has no way yo make another, even if he somehow finds tools.

 

No skills means no skills, and that lack of skills can kill you as dead as a lack of combat skills.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Off the top of my head...

The example character has no social skills, so he can't convince others of anything, nor does he have the skills to resist in opposed rolls. He can be seduced, lied to, fast talked, conned and led astray rather easily.

 

Once he's been seduced, robbed blind, and led astray... now that he's lost in the woods... How does he survive? No Survival Skills... no Tracking. No Area Knowledges, no nada. If his bow was stolen, he has no way yo make another, even if he somehow finds tools.

 

No skills means no skills, and that lack of skills can kill you as dead as a lack of combat skills.

Yeah, I know...thus the post; its pointing out to azato that his all-combat character comes up short.

 

 

Thats twice now you've quoted one of my posts and seemed to get the exact opposite impression of what was actually stated or implied.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

"Noncombat" need not equate to "useless".

 

.....To me, that's not really a "character", just some statistics jumbled up on the page.

 

 

Sorry, I was just being silly. I was thinking of something absurd to conterbalance his absurd combat capabilites. I do not disagree with any charge leveled at this character build.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Yeah, I know...thus the post; its pointing out to azato that his all-combat character comes up short.

 

 

Thats twice now you've quoted one of my posts and seemed to get the exact opposite impression of what was actually stated or implied.

 

I've been super sick for the last week... If I've come across as getting the opposite impression, then blame my inability to formulate my thoughts clearly. I was trying to support what you said by citing examples, not refute anything you wrote.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Yes, I know this.

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear...

 

 

JmOz is saying that he allows "called shots" in his Generalized Damage Superheroic games, and that he uses the Hit Location multiples for such attacks instead of Generalized Damage.

 

I'm saying that if you use the Generalized Damage rules for supers, then you should not allow this, per the recommendation of rules as well as common sense looking at the rampant scaling of multiples applied to high Damage Classes.

 

Hit Locations are an alternate option intended to be used instead of Generalized Damage for campaigns that are supposed to be gritty, not used in addition to Generalized Damage in superheroic games.

 

In the case of this'un, my addeled brain did totally miss the point you were making, about combining Generalized damage with called shots and multipliers.

 

Even in a generalized damage game, I'd not be opposed to using called shots, complete with multipliers, but I'd be puting pretty hefty restrictions on Targeting PSL's, and wouldn't be using body multipliers at all. Even so, the chance to do lots of extra stun does radically change game balance,and completely alters several aspects of the game at a ground rules level