Variable power upon arrival

[Robyn]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Some of these issues come down to minor SFX variations. if my power doesn't affect undead' date=' and my target is unaffected, maybe he's undead. But your last statement is key - with such variations, sometimes you win (hmmm...it didn't work - maybe he's undead) and sometimes you lose (oh, so my attacks were doing nothing). When do you LOSE with the autoselect multipower?[/quote']

 

Hmm . . . a fair point. I'd like to limit it to "casual" usages, as stated in TaxiMan's example, but there's no logical reason to deny the PC's deliberate repetition of the trick until they pay XP.

 

The "loss" could be unintended effects (we didn't want to Transform the object, we actually needed that one like it already was).

 

It seems to me this would generally be a significant advantage. We don't want to kill him? Not a problem - if he's a living being' date=' my autoselect MP will automatically pick the NND/Stun Only option. And if he's a robot, it will automatically use the RKA, so I didn't waste my phase.[/quote']

 

I don't see how this is much more advantageous than "only affects X" on an attack power; you can use that to harmlessly test for X, and you get points for it as a Limitation. Sure, there's the "don't waste a Phase" (and END), but we already have a discrepancy in that the autoselect MP doesn't save you points as "only affects X" would. Is the difference in this advantage enough to turn the equivalent Limit into an Advantage?

 

Maybe we should be looking at the Limitation value of "only affects X", too.

 

There are also logistical issues. Say my Postive Energy Beam always heals the living (4d6 Ranged Healing) and harms the undead (4d6 RKA). What happens if I spread the attack to hit targets in multiple hexes' date=' some of whom are undead and some are living? Do I get to use my full 4d6 Healing power on the living targets (assume they're my teammates) while attacking the Undead (assumed to be the bad guys) with 4d6 RKA's [both reduced for spreading, of course']?

 

Logically (by the concept) this would have different effects, depending on target. (You would still need Selective Targeting (if AOE) to avoid hitting the living targets that you didn't want to heal, but you would have to choose those targets before knowing whether they in fact were alive.) I might require the player to take "effect is split between all affected", if they can only send out a set amount of positive energy. I think what I'm basically looking at, though, is a (Naked?) Variable Power Effect on however many Active Points are in the positive energy.

 

SFX are still determined before using the power, and in fact will probably be set permanently. The exact power, though, is only determined upon arrival (VPP "in flight", waveform only resolves upon arrival?).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

- Character 2 can't MPA. He gets no benefit whatsoever from buying flexible' date=' rather than fixed, slots.[/quote']

 

That would only be the case in a Multipower of nothing but attack Powers. Flexible slots could be extremely useful if the character's Multipower also contained Defense Powers, Movement Powers, sensory abilities, and the like.

 

The more I think about this MPA prohibition, the more I like it. A long-time complaint about Multipowers has been that the "all-attack" MP gives one a tremendous cost break on buying such Powers without significant drawback. Even buying a Multipower large enough to use two or more slots simultaneously would allow for "mix-and-match" attacks from the various slots in a MPA. This new ruling makes for significant benefits and drawbacks for buying Attack Powers either individually or as part of a MP, and I like the balance of that.

[SirViss]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

I read through this pretty quickly, so I might have missed some important points, but this is what I think about auto-select powers: don't.

 

That is my knee-jerk reaction. I should say that auto-select powers are a GREAT advantage, as Hugh pointed out. The way I see it, it shouldn't be the power that has a modifier, but what you are using the power on. So, Undead whould have a Susceptibility or a Physical Limitation(Healing power; gets no benefits from Healing powers and Healing points turn to damage) or something like that.

 

Sometimes, powers that have multiple effects should be defined by the campaign background and not the power. That, or you have to shovel out the points.

-------------------------------------------------

 

Okay the knee-jerk reaction is past.

 

I just thought of a way that might be worth concidering. Make the multiple effect power as a Multipower, and then put a the advantage Trigger (Variable Trigger, Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time,Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates) on the whole Multipower (Pool and slots). The Trigger is "attacking [type] target". As a +1 Advantage it should cut down on the raw power level of the Multipower.

 

What do you guys think?

[Robyn]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Sometimes' date=' powers that have multiple effects should be defined by the campaign background and not the power. That, or you have to shovel out the points. [/quote']

 

I opened this thread while thinking about whether unusual reactions to powers would be better implemented as an Advantage/Perk on the power/character or a Disadvantage on the target. This came from the thread where we were discussing the perception of what caused such a difference, for one specific instance.

 

Currently, yes, you have to shovel out the points if you want it to happen - but that's anywhere. You can define a positive energy blast as "deals damage", and then specify that it Transforms objects instead by giving that to the object (rather than the power) - but, you then have to also buy enough ED for the object to prevent it from being destroyed by the damage that comes with the power definition of the energy blast. Or, you could give the energy blast a Limitation for "only damages everything but objects". But when we start looking at people for targets, we have to start asking "Who is paying for this, and do they actually put points into it, or get some back?", as well as "Are we using a fully consistent method, or will the choice of Limitation versus Advantage (et all) be mandated by what someone else chose?" (this last possibly leading into a combination of choices where something cannot be statted out and remain fully consistent).

 

The Trigger is "attacking [type] target".

 

I've alluded to the problems with this approach before, but here are a couple of stories to illustrate the point:

 

1) Judge Fredd looked into the swirling mass of rioters and gangsters, the latter fighting to control the street and the former just struggling to survive. After several attempts to draw a bead on one of the gangsters, only to have the flow of the battle carry them out of sight or interpose someone else before he could confirm a clear shot and pull the trigger, he finally sighed and gave it up as hopeless. Activating the automatic fire control on his weapon, he aimed it at random into the crowd and fired. His weapon identified the target in its electronic scope as a gangster, and speed-loaded lethal rounds, firing them instantly. Unfortunately, its state-of-the-art guidance system malfunctioned, guiding the bullet to an innocent civilian.

 

2) Judge Fredd swept his weapon carefully from side to side, stepping carefully through the darkness. He heard soft footsteps nearby, but there must be ECM in the area, jamming his target identification system. He can't see to load the proper ordnance manually, and he can't afford to issue an open challenge because that would give away his own location and identity, as much as painting a bullseye on his back if the people in this area are hostile. Then, suddenly, he hears a scuffle break out right next to him - he instinctively shifts his grip toward the fight and fires blindly in their direction.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Auto-selecting Multipowers have precedence in the rules. There's a Heat Ray in Gadgets and Gear, which burns things or melts them depending on what it hits. It's built as a Multipower with the GM picking the effect each time it's used. As I recall, no Modifier was imposed for this effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

That would only be the case in a Multipower of nothing but attack Powers. Flexible slots could be extremely useful if the character's Multipower also contained Defense Powers' date=' Movement Powers, sensory abilities, and the like.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. That's not what I typically see multipowers used for, though.

 

The more I think about this MPA prohibition' date=' the more I like it. A long-time complaint about Multipowers has been that the "all-attack" MP gives one a tremendous cost break on buying such Powers without significant drawback. Even buying a Multipower large enough to use two or more slots simultaneously would allow for "mix-and-match" attacks from the various slots in a MPA. This new ruling makes for significant benefits and drawbacks for buying Attack Powers either individually or as part of a MP, and I like the balance of that.[/quote']

 

This just means you don't buy 1 MP with enough Ap to use two separate attack powers, you buy two Multipowers and MPA with one attack from each. Reduces your choices a bit over being able to combine any two from one MP, but it's no more expensive.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Good observation, but as I noticed with one of my own character builds, 3-point CSLs which would work for a single Multipower, won't work for two or more.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Good observation' date=' but as I noticed with one of my own character builds, 3-point CSLs which would work for a single Multipower, won't work for two or more.[/quote']

 

a slot full of 5 point +1 OCV levels does the trick...

 

Actually, I wouldn't take issue with someone having a multipower that widespread being required to take 5 point Multipower levels, but we now depart from the canon...

[OddHat]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

This just means you don't buy 1 MP with enough Ap to use two separate attack powers, you buy two Multipowers and MPA with one attack from each. Reduces your choices a bit over being able to combine any two from one MP, but it's no more expensive.

 

Which is probably the point of the ruling. Give up some flexibility, gain the power to use MPAs.

[OddHat]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

a slot full of 5 point +1 OCV levels does the trick...

 

IMO, the GM who allows a MP slot filled with skill levels wants very high power PCs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Which is probably the point of the ruling. Give up some flexibility' date=' gain the power to use MPAs.[/quote']

 

For the amount of flexibility in question, it seems a negligible point. If there's one power (likely a vanilla energy blast) you find commonly is desirable to combine with each pool, you put that slot in each MP for an extra fixed slot cost. Now you can ALSO fire an MPA of that one atack shooting twice, since it's two separate powers by virtue of being in two separate multipowers (much like the guy with two swords gets to MPA with them).

 

Big advantage for a focused Multipower as well - just spend another 5 points to get a second one and MPA with them at will - but that's an issue with the equipment doubling rules, not the MPA rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

IMO' date=' the GM who allows a MP slot filled with skill levels wants very high power PCs. [/quote']

 

Well, you don't really need skill levels. Just spread your attack powers to enhance OCV. Of course, now you need to reduce the damage from both attacks, so you buy your Multipower a bit bigger with the expectation of using a few dice as OCV levels, knowing they can convert to higher damage if that's what's needed on any given occasion.

[OddHat]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

For the amount of flexibility in question' date=' it seems a negligible point. If there's one power (likely a vanilla energy blast) you find commonly is desirable to combine with each pool, you put that slot in each MP for an extra fixed slot cost. Now you can ALSO fire an MPA of that one atack shooting twice, since it's two separate powers by virtue of being in two separate multipowers (much like the guy with two swords gets to MPA with them).[/quote']

 

I disagree there. 120 point Multipower Guy can stock up on a few slots that go up to 120 active points (if his GM allows it). 60+60 point Multipower guy gets the option of MPAs, but loses out on that 120 point attack. Seems like a significant difference, even if the point costs are similar.

 

Big advantage for a focused Multipower as well - just spend another 5 points to get a second one and MPA with them at will - but that's an issue with the equipment doubling rules, not the MPA rules.

 

You can always say "no".

 

Well' date=' you don't really need skill levels. Just spread your attack powers to enhance OCV. Of course, now you need to reduce the damage from both attacks, so you buy your Multipower a bit bigger with the expectation of using a few dice as OCV levels, knowing they can convert to higher damage if that's what's needed on any given occasion.[/quote']

 

If the GM doesn't want to see characters with attacks that do Xd6, he has the option of saying "no". If he gives permission for the build you suggest, he must want high powered PCs. I don't see a problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

I disagree there. 120 point Multipower Guy can stock up on a few slots that go up to 120 active points (if his GM allows it). 60+60 point Multipower guy gets the option of MPAs' date=' but loses out on that 120 point attack. Seems like a significant difference, even if the point costs are similar.[/quote']

 

So why should it be possible for 120 pt Multipower Guy to have a 24d6 EB, but not MPA a 12d6 EB and a 12d6 Flash?

 

In most games, I suspect the 120 AP single attack would be denied if 60 AP attacks are the norm (or even competetive) anyway.

 

If the GM doesn't want to see characters with attacks that do Xd6' date=' he has the option of saying "no". If he gives permission for the build you suggest, he must want high powered PCs. I don't see a problem.[/quote']

 

Nothing prevents those excessive d6 being limited "only to spread", if the number of dice is an issue and the GM won't allow skill levels as part of the Multipower (or slot in a Triggered DEX Aid, I suppose...). Point being, a slot with skill levels is no more abusive than many other things the system can accomplish. Realy, +1d6 EB is a mini-multipower anyway. It can add 1d6 damage, add +1 OCV, or allow you to hit one more hex.

[OddHat]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

So why should it be possible for 120 pt Multipower Guy to have a 24d6 EB' date=' but not MPA a 12d6 EB and a 12d6 Flash?[/quote']

 

If I understand the reasoning behind the MPA rules correctly, that's the trade off that 120 Point MP guy made when he sunk all his points into that one MP. He gets the raw power, but not the ability to make MPAs. However, at this point we're just repeating ourselves.

 

In most games, I suspect the 120 AP single attack would be denied if 60 AP attacks are the norm (or even competetive) anyway.

 

Pick another example. The logic behind the rule, agree or disagree, remains the same.

 

Nothing prevents those excessive d6 being limited "only to spread", if the number of dice is an issue and the GM won't allow skill levels as part of the Multipower (or slot in a Triggered DEX Aid, I suppose...). Point being, a slot with skill levels is no more abusive than many other things the system can accomplish. Realy, +1d6 EB is a mini-multipower anyway. It can add 1d6 damage, add +1 OCV, or allow you to hit one more hex.

 

I agree with your assessment, but I still see no problem. Maybe we're talking past each other? The GM knew what he was allowing when he approved the power, whether it's extra skill levels or extra dice. If he didn't want the PCs to have that level of power, he would have turned the build down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

If I understand the reasoning behind the MPA rules correctly' date=' that's the trade off that 120 Point MP guy made when he sunk all his points into that one MP. He gets the raw power, but not the ability to make MPAs. However, at this point we're just repeating ourselves.[/quote']

 

You're intuiting a rationale that the designer may or may not have intended.

Regardless, I consider the rationale to be poor. There's no reason the guy whose MP allows him to use two or more atacks simultaneously, within that multipower's active point limits.

 

Similarly, I see no reason multiple attacks all purchased in an EC should not be usable as an MPA.

 

IIRC, a VPP can fire off an MPA provided the total AP doesn't exceed the pool limit.

 

Our 120 point MP guy does have another by the book option, come to think of it. He could build a number of compound power slots in his MP to allow some variety of mix & match attacks. That would be somewhat more expensive, with the slot costs tempered somewhat by the ability to take the Linked limitation on at least the smaller attack(s) in each slot. Clearly, it's possible to MPA with a compound power in a single slot in the framework - linked attacks in a Multipower slot are legal, and would be useless if they couldn't be used together.

 

Overall, of course, we have any GM imposed limitations. If, as GM, I feel firing 3 60 AP attacks simultaneously will be unbalancing, it doesn't matter whether you paid full points or got a hefty discount using a framework - it's unbalanced, so it's veto'd.

[OddHat]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

You're intuiting a rationale that the designer may or may not have intended.

Regardless, I consider the rationale to be poor. There's no reason the guy whose MP allows him to use two or more atacks simultaneously, within that multipower's active point limits.

 

Except to give a minor reward to the guy who picked the more expensive build.

 

IIRC, a VPP can fire off an MPA provided the total AP doesn't exceed the pool limit.

 

I think it technically does so by building a compound power, but I'd need to check.

 

Our 120 point MP guy does have another by the book option, come to think of it. He could build a number of compound power slots in his MP to allow some variety of mix & match attacks. That would be somewhat more expensive, with the slot costs tempered somewhat by the ability to take the Linked limitation on at least the smaller attack(s) in each slot. Clearly, it's possible to MPA with a compound power in a single slot in the framework - linked attacks in a Multipower slot are legal, and would be useless if they couldn't be used together.

 

Yes, he could. But then a Compound Power is not technically an MPA. It's slightly more limited, and buying a few of them will cost MP guy a few more points.

 

Overall, of course, we have any GM imposed limitations. If, as GM, I feel firing 3 60 AP attacks simultaneously will be unbalancing, it doesn't matter whether you paid full points or got a hefty discount using a framework - it's unbalanced, so it's veto'd.

 

Agreed on that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Yes, but I quoted the CORRECT page.

[Robyn]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Yes' date=' but I quoted the CORRECT page.[/quote']

 

So did he.

 

He also mentioned three more pages, albeit having nothing to do with the answer.

 

I judge ghost-angel winner on quantity, Thia Halmades winner on quality.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Variable power upon arrival

 

Yes' date=' but I quoted the CORRECT page.[/quote']

 

oh