Independent on a Power Framework

[crayadder]

If I make a hat that gives 5 different powers ala Multipower, can I use Independent as a common modifier or just as a modifier to the pool itself? I am guessing just on the pool, but want to make sure.

 

Thanks

[Doc Samson]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Independent can be taken on an entire framework, but when it is lost, all powers in the framework are lost as well.

 

Please note that at some point, if you play the character long enough, you will lose the independent power or framework and all the points you spent on it. If the limitation never comes into play, then by definition it is not a limitation.

 

If you invest a large number of points in the framework, when you lose it your only hope is that the GM gives you an opportunity to retrieve it, otherwise the points are gone permenantly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

I think it's very important that the GM ensure any player taking Independent understand that, in taking that limitation, they are instructing the GM to make those points disapppear - permanently - at some point in the campaign.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

I think that any GM should, upon seeing a PC with an Independent power, instantly have it stolen in the first five minutes of the game and destroyed.

 

And never refund the points. Or allow them to build a new character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

I think that any GM should, upon seeing a PC with an Independent power, instantly have it stolen in the first five minutes of the game and destroyed.

 

And never refund the points. Or allow them to build a new character.

 

That last is a key issue, to me. I think any player with an Independent power, if they accept the "you are TELLING me to take those points away at some point in the game", should accept a time requirement after those points vanish before they're allowed to make a new character. I can certainly see the munchkin approach of building a character with Independent powers, running him until the powers disappear, then starting a new character.

 

As a possible rule of thumb, what about a requirement that the character be played for at least as many sessions after the powers disappear as were played before.

 

As an alternative, if your new character starts within X sessions (maybe determined as the above) of loss of the independent powers, the character gets no XP to put him on a par with the other characters. After enough character swaps, the other players should have enough XP to match the character's Indendent power-up without similar limitations.

 

Better yet, Just Say No. That is, NO independent powers purchased by player characters.

[crayadder]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Thanks for the great input!

 

To clarify, if I buy independent as a common modifier for my hypothetical hat, each power I place inside will be given the independent disad. Now, it seems to me that would indicate that each power could be lost independently of the rest in the pool. What I understand you to be saying, DocSamson, is that that is not the case. Why would it not happen like that?

 

Doc, Hugh, and Whamme, I never even considered that side of the disad! Definitely have to ponder that as a GM and a player. LoL! I think my PCs are in for a shock!

 

Accordingly to the above, how would you construct an item that endows the bearer with improved attributes, yet is passed on through the family, or maybe as the prize in an annual contest, like a trophy?

[OddHat]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Accordingly to the above, how would you construct an item that endows the bearer with improved attributes, yet is passed on through the family, or maybe as the prize in an annual contest, like a trophy?

 

"Passed on through the Family" is just a focus. The PC will almost certainly get to keep it for the length of the campaign. It could even be an OIHID, if the focus can't normally be stollen except in extraordinary circumstances.

 

"Independent" is only used if a focus can be permenantly lost or stollen in the course of the campaign. As Hugh points out, taking it is a direct request to the GM to make this happen. A Limitation that does not Limit the power is worth no points; If your Independent item is not taken away forever at some point, you shouldn't be getting a point break for it.

 

If you can lose your powers by losing a contest, as a GM I'd probably let you get those powers (or powers of equal point value) back one way or another. If your powers were Independent then they're gone for good. The Prize itself I'd just build as a universal focus.

 

Independent is generally used for Fantasy Hero games.

[crayadder]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Good explanation Odd. I appreciate it, and awesome quote from the Tick!

[JmOz]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Remember independent does not necesarily mean Foci. Made one character who had this power

 

60 12D6 EB Photon blast

15 +13d6 EB Super Photon Blast, Burnout 14-, Side effects (If burnout fails Photon Blast affected by a 3d6 drain), Independent

 

So basicaly the character could shoot 12d6 EB all day long, or he could shoot the Super Photon Blast, but if he failed the burnout power he loss the power permanatly and also took a hit on his normal Photon blast for a while...If I recall, the drain had a reduced fade rate as well (5 points a day or something to that effect...). Fun character, knowing a bad die roll could rob me of the last ditch power kept me from using it constantly...

[Doc Samson]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

To clarify' date=' if I buy independent as a common modifier for my hypothetical hat, each power I place inside will be given the independent disad. Now, it seems to me that would indicate that each power could be lost [i']independently[/i] of the rest in the pool. What I understand you to be saying, DocSamson, is that that is not the case. Why would it not happen like that?

 

This may require a ruling by your GM based on the Special Effect of the Framework. Here are my thoughts as a frequent GM...

- If the Framework were bought with as a single Independent Focus; i.e. "a single Hat", then yes, all powers in the framework would be lost if you lost the Hat.

- If the Framework were bought as multiple Independent Foci; i.e. "multiple things I can pull out of this Hat (one item for each power, for example)", then I believe I would allow them to be lost seperately.

 

[edit] Please note that having a sperate item for each power still may not prevent someone from stealing them all at the same time, especially if you kept them all in a single hat.

[Gummibear]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

This may require a ruling by your GM based on the Special Effect of the Framework. Here are my thoughts as a frequent GM...

- If the Framework were bought with as a single Independent Focus; i.e. "a single Hat", then yes, all powers in the framework would be lost if you lost the Hat.

- If the Framework were bought as multiple Independent Foci; i.e. "multiple things I can pull out of this Hat (one item for each power, for example)", then I believe I would allow them to be lost seperately.

 

[edit] Please note that having a sperate item for each power still may not prevent someone from stealing them all at the same time, especially if you kept them all in a single hat.

 

One possible example of the "loses them all one at a time" might be a hat with a bunch of fetishes. Lets say Shaman-person the hero has a hat that has a few powers (flight/ff/eb) but he also has multiple fetishes on them that let him throw giant boulders, or summon creatures or what not. So each fetish could be stolen individually as well as the hat. However as a GM unless the sfx of an attack called for the fetishes being knocked off or some such thing then I would say that if the hat was stolen/lost/destroyed, then all fetishes would be as well.

IMO you could technically purchase the hat as independent and the fetishes as independent as well. However I might make it a list rather than a framework if they were allowed to work independently. If they are in a framework if you lose the framework (the hat) then you lose all the powers within it.

 

Opinion on the Independent in a game. I would agree with some that the Independent should be stolen or at the least threatened within the first five minutes. Destroyed is just a bit too harsh. Stealing it would make the munchkin ( because I've really only seen Indep. used by PCs for long term by munchkins or when I myself was self-admittedly munchkinning) paranoid enough to change most actions to revolve around protecting the Indep item, thus making the point and causing the PC to question their choices. If the PC doesn't question their choices, then you need to steal/destroy/utterly eliminate the Indep. item within the next few sessions. After all you don't want it to seem obvious do you?

 

As far as letting an Indep stay in the game I might (and have) allow it however most XP gained in the future would go toward buying off the Indep limitation-first on the framework transferring the Indep to the various slots individiually and gradually buying it off from there. This is like a high interest loan to the character. However during this time you can bet that I would (and have) take the Indep object from time to time.

 

Remember that there is a happy balance between game balance/mechanics/sfx that must be struck. It is a limitation in the book and we as GMs need to be careful saying NO automatically. Much like how you deal with a small child.

Its pretty obvious when a character uses Indep to gain back points only with a few choice questions.

"Why is your framework ALL Indep?"

"Because, um, well, it uh, came from...my...FATHER *yeah* and he uh, used it to fight crime in uh...World War I, oh wait no, I mean World War 2, oh uh no that won't work either, uh Vietnam, yeah, he was in Vietnam fighting the uh Vietnam people."

"Ok so your Father fought the VietnaMESE with this item. Did he win the war using his great power?"

"Yeah, he totally kicked butt and saved the world from the Vietnam."

"Ok so your Father is a time/space manipulator as well because we actually lost Vietnam. So you'll need those powers as well."

"........yeah.....um...."

"Power denied. Let me point you in the direction of a good brick. He's really tough and he hits things..."

 

\inside joke

Bluefire can tell you about the "LIGHT AT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE" and the player that ran the Independent powers for the character.

\end inside joke

[David Johnston]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

"Independant" was created for the benefit of wizards in a fantasy campaign to set a price for making their magic items so that a PC wizard wouldn't just crank them out to outfit their friends, but might consider making one in return for sufficient reward. I have never seen any other application for the limitation which struck me as appropriate. Even in a fantasy campaign I'm not thrilled by it. Although admittedly it is the perfect way to represent magic item creation in The Lord of Rings. Sauron? Total munchkin.

[crayadder]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Good stuff, good stuff!

 

Ok, I am still confused about one issue. Below is said hypothetical hat:

 

Bowler of Bountiful Benefit, all slots Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +20 STR (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

7 +10 DEX (30 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

5 +10 CON (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

4 +2 with All Combat (16 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +2 Overall (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +10 BODY (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

Total Powers Cost: 31

 

Now, it doesn't make sense that someone could remove any given one of the powers since they are all inherent in the hat. My confusion lies in whether it is legal to use Independent as a common modifier or should it, in this instance, only be placed on the actual framework(if'n this was a multipower or Elemental Pool, etc..) to lower the pool cost?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Each individual slot is lost when the hat is lost. I'd allow the limitation on all the slots, as well as the pool.

[OddHat]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Again, I agree with Hugh.

 

I would add that, were I to allow this build, I'd say that damage to the hat may result in the loss of one or more MP slots, thus allowing the slots to be lost even if the hat remains.

 

Many published characters have a MP purchased with a focus, with the limit applying to both the pool and slots. Allowing Independent to be used in the same way seems reasonable, if it's allowed at all.

[Gummibear]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Good stuff, good stuff!

 

Ok, I am still confused about one issue. Below is said hypothetical hat:

 

Bowler of Bountiful Benefit, all slots Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +20 STR (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

7 +10 DEX (30 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

5 +10 CON (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat;

4 +2 with All Combat (16 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +2 Overall (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

5 +10 BODY (20 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (Focus: Bowler Hat; -1)

Total Powers Cost: 31

 

Now, it doesn't make sense that someone could remove any given one of the powers since they are all inherent in the hat. My confusion lies in whether it is legal to use Independent as a common modifier or should it, in this instance, only be placed on the actual framework(if'n this was a multipower or Elemental Pool, etc..) to lower the pool cost?

 

Point of Clarification:

1. I wouldn't and I don't know too many sane GMs that would allow that many powers in an EC. Disregarding the fact that they don't cost end its just super munchkinny. So I would pretty much not even consider it as an EC.

as a corollary to the EC. It is marginally in the qualifying range for an EC. Though they may have similar sfx, they are only really vaguely arguably part of an EC.

2. Multipower. This is more appopriate I think although to use them all at max power the multi would have to be large enough to support all powers, and then pretty much you may as well put them in a list with those disads.

 

Yes it is legal (IMO) to put the modifiers on the framework. This is very convenient for accounting. In the case of your Bowler in order to run them all in a Multi that was set to Ultra slots and all powers able to work at full burn it would be a 126 active total then divided by 4 (-2 and -1) which would give you a framework cost of 31 points. Then each slot would be about one point each with the power levels you mentioned.

If you want to munchkin (oh I hear you all screaming out there in hero-land) you could make all slots at full 126 as an option. Then the slots would have to be multi however the total cost per slot would be 126/5=25/4=6 points per slot. With this one of the slots could run at full burn or any combination of 126 points.

Ok so I think you can see that the answer on the board seems to be yep its legal in a Multi, questionable in an EC and best in a list. Now for the real question...

Is this a PC or an NPC?

Also you seem to be really accomodating to a lot of not quite so positive (on some boards it would be called abuse ) responses that you have gotten. So the hero in me goes hmmmmm seems like a setup? Is this some big plot to take over the hero universe or are you just that nice of a person.?

 

Maybe I've just been playing in a dark future corporate conspiracy genre too long...

[crayadder]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

• Thanks Hugh
  
• Good Point OddHat - "I'd say that damage to the hat may result in the loss of one or more MP slots"
  
• This is an NPC Gummi.
  

 

Funny thing is, with all your excellent input I have decided not to use Independent. However, now that the ball is rolling I just have to give it another shove. Therefore, would having Independent on each power within the List/MP/EC mean that they could be targeted individually?

 

As for receiving "not quite so positive... responses", I must really be that nice because none of the posts in this thread have struck me as anything but courteous and helpful, as seems to be the norm in these forums.

 

ps. look behind you...

[GoldenAge]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Personally, I think that many posters here are a bit too harsh on the Independent Foci.

 

Though I agree that a character is asking for it when he uses that disadvantage, I believe it should be viewed as more of a plea for diversity than with the extremely negative views expressed above.

 

When a GM sees Independent on a power (or power set) his initial reaction should be one of devious delight. Instead of ruining the character by instantly destroying his foci (or power), the GM should be clever enough to tease that focus into a major campaign tool...

 

Keep the player worried that it could all go away. Steal it and begin a saga revolved around its return the likes of which your players have never before seen. Have a villain duplicate it and see what happens when the shoe is on the other foot...

 

This is the time to build a legendary moment; the kind of games you look back on years from now and wish things could be that cool again. The GM who is afraid of Independent is grossly displaying a bad attitude and a lack of imagination.

 

Now, I’m not trying to imply that the Independent advantage should be seen regularly. But if the concept is sound and the player is excited about the character, if he fully understands all of the drawbacks of the limitation (including the fact that if he looses the focus, he will NOT be allowed to create a new character and must either retrieve the focus (power) or continue at a loss) then I say GAME ON! Diversity makes heroes! He's just asking for the opportunity to become one.

[Gummibear]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

ps. look behind you...

Good one.

 

So that's been you that's been causing all my paranoia. Whew I thought I was imagining it...

[Gummibear]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

Personally, I think that many posters here are a bit too harsh on the Independent Foci.

 

Though I agree that a character is asking for it when he uses that disadvantage, I believe it should be viewed as more of a plea for diversity than with the extremely negative views expressed above.

 

When a GM sees Independent on a power (or power set) his initial reaction should be one of devious delight. Instead of ruining the character by instantly destroying his foci (or power), the GM should be clever enough to tease that focus into a major campaign tool...

 

Keep the player worried that it could all go away. Steal it and begin a saga revolved around its return the likes of which your players have never before seen. Have a villain duplicate it and see what happens when the shoe is on the other foot...

 

This is the time to build a legendary moment; the kind of games you look back on years from now and wish things could be that cool again. The GM who is afraid of Independent is grossly displaying a bad attitude and a lack of imagination.

 

Now, I’m not trying to imply that the Independent advantage should be seen regularly. But if the concept is sound and the player is excited about the character, if he fully understands all of the drawbacks of the limitation (including the fact that if he looses the focus, he will NOT be allowed to create a new character and must either retrieve the focus (power) or continue at a loss) then I say GAME ON! Diversity makes heroes! He's just asking for the opportunity to become one.

 

Huzzah Golden. I concur.

[Gummibear]

Re: Independent on a Power Framework

 

• Thanks Hugh
  
• Good Point OddHat - "I'd say that damage to the hat may result in the loss of one or more MP slots"
  
• This is an NPC Gummi.
  

 

Funny thing is, with all your excellent input I have decided not to use Independent. However, now that the ball is rolling I just have to give it another shove. Therefore, would having Independent on each power within the List/MP/EC mean that they could be targeted individually?

 

 

ps. look behind you...

 

 

If the slots had Indep. and they were in some way unrelated to the Indep on the framework then I would allow the targetting of that individual slot. Example of Shaman-person hero applies. If super-laser-pistol-shooting opponent has the ability to deal with the negative 10 to 13 ( i figure a small fetish on a hat will be roughly eye-sized or slightly larger) then have at. In which case if the flight fetish was targetted and successfully hit and destroyed, then bye-bye flight.

Lets just hope Shaman-person wasn't too high at the time.