Alignment Issues

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Alignments moreso than classes, however, really deliniate how difficult it is to have a setting for D&D other than "the D&D setting". All the mechanics are built around a predefined setting, making it intrinsically difficult to modify and customise.

 

Try adding a new alignment, and you have to go through all the spells and modify them as well. And the classes. And the magic items. And the gods...

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Alignments moreso than classes, however, really deliniate how difficult it is to have a setting for D&D other than "the D&D setting". All the mechanics are built around a predefined setting, making it intrinsically difficult to modify and customise.

 

Try adding a new alignment, and you have to go through all the spells and modify them as well. And the classes. And the magic items. And the gods...

 

 

What you say isn't true. Fantasy literature swarms with environments in which there are two opposing supernatural sides whether it's Seelie and Unseelie, Light and Shadow, Law and Chaos, Life and Death, God and the Devil, or even Fire and Ice. All of them are aligned universes and it isn't difficult at all to modify "Detect Evil" to "Detect Death". What's more, it also isn't difficult to drop all the alignment based spells if you want to do a universe in which there is no good. At least, it shouldn't be difficult for anyone prepared to create a Fantasy Hero magic system.

 

However, D&D does end up with many games with great general similarities since after all, they are running with the same magic system, mostly the same spells, and usually the same array of nonhuman inhabitants of the universe. That's not an alignment issue. That's the natural outgrowth of a game with a great deal of preprepared material.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

What you say isn't true. Fantasy literature swarms with environments in which there are two opposing supernatural sides whether it's Seelie and Unseelie' date=' Light and Shadow, Law and Chaos, Life and Death, God and the Devil, or even Fire and Ice. All of them are aligned universes and it isn't difficult at all to modify "Detect Evil" to "Detect Death". What's more, it also isn't difficult to drop all the alignment based spells if you want to do a universe in which there is no good. At least, it shouldn't be difficult for anyone prepared to create a Fantasy Hero magic system.[/quote']

 

However, I think more than one of us is of the opinion that the Alignment system does a very poor job of simulating that aspect of those settings.

 

I'd also say that alignment fails to ring true because it's philosophically backwards -- "good" and "evil" are about what one does, not about what one is.

[assault]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Fantasy literature swarms with environments in which there are two opposing supernatural sides whether it's Seelie and Unseelie' date=' Light and Shadow, Law and Chaos, Life and Death, God and the Devil, or even Fire and Ice. All of them are aligned universes[/quote']

 

This statement is true, but these "alignments" aren't necessarily best modeled by the DnD-style approach.

 

Three Hearts and Three Lions is a good example, notwithstanding that it was one of the main inspirations for the DnD Paladin class.

 

EDIT: I've just noticed that Kristopher has said pretty much the same thing. How about that?

[Omnigames]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

WOW! Seven pages of responses so far!

I had no idea my question would inspire so much controversy!

 

My original question basically had to deal with translating the HERO system into a computer program. We can philosophize all we want about the nature of alignment -- both in the "real" world and in a game setting -- but I was only attempting to determine the best course of action for writing computer software. The number of available alignments is completely arbitrary, whether that is 2, 9 or 300. And for a computer program, dealing with only 9 options is considerably easier than 300!

 

As Markdoc pointed out back on page 6 (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49190&page=6), the alignment you choose (at least for my game) will limit your choice of armor, weapons and spells. Evil characters who use Good weapons will not receive their full effect and may receive penalties or damage as a result. (Neutral characters would not receive penalties but wouldn't gain benefits either.)

 

True, you can change alignments if desired but you must face the consequences of your actions. If you were Good and decided to become Evil, you would have to "prove" yourself to the program. That means you might have to kill innocents (with each kill "lowering" your alignment score by, say, 5 points), steal from shopkeepers or some other action(s). Likewise, if you were originally Lawful but began ignoring your captain's orders, you would drift towards Neutrality or even Chaos. Changing alignments will then limit your choice of armor, weapons and NPCs' actions towards you. That may not be "fair" but it does make for interesting gameplay!

 

It's fairly easy to translate a linear concept into a computer program. It's a bit more challenging to take something as open-ended as the HERO system and turn it into computer instructions. I can only hope my efforts result in a good game.

 

Thanks for all the response!

 

By the way, my alignment is Chaotic Good in the real world. (Honestly!)

[Omnigames]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Oh yeah... as far as determining another's alignment, that will come with experience. Initially, you will have no idea of another's alignment and will have to base that on their actions towards you. With time and experience, you will gain abilities that will allow you to instantaneously determine another's alignment. (And of course, they may be able to deceive you based on their experience and abilities, so a really powerful Evil wizard may be able to convince you he's Good until he gets what he wants.)

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'd rather not limit equipment choices to aligment. I'd much rather have taints.

Anyone can use any equipment - however if you use evil equipment, you get a taint of evil that can be detected. Likewise if you use good equipment.

I'd also limit what it could be used for - evil equipment can be used to harm anyone, but good equipment suffers penalties if used against characters that do not have the evil taint.

[Omnigames]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'll consider that option as well.

 

BTW, I like the wiki!

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Good! Now I want you to become a member of it and start contributing!

heh.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'd also say that alignment fails to ring true because it's philosophically backwards -- "good" and "evil" are about what one does' date=' not about what one [i']is[/i].

 

You are saying that one is evil because one does evil; logically then, if one wants to be good, they merely stop doing evil and start doing good. That is a narrow philosophical position in that it rejects the reverse as valid.

 

In Christian philosophy, one does evil because one is evil; some would say that even if an evil person appears to do good it is tainted and not really good (though this is a point of debate), and ultimately their evil nature will assert itself. Essentially, good deeds do not make you good. Needless to say, those who hold to this worldview find the D&D idea of alignment rings very true to their perception of the world and is not backwards at all. Furthermore they consider a game that does not (or cannot) support the concept to be limited and second-rate.

 

Just wanted to point that out.

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'd just like to point out that inherently evil is not part of Christian philosophy. Inherently a sinner is. All human beings are redeemable in Christian philosophy.

In the Old Testament, if someone was evil - you killed them.

In the New Testament (which is used more often by Christians) - you redeem them and forgive them.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Sorry, did not mean to imply that all Christians see this the same way, just that some do.

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Sorry' date=' did not mean to imply that all Christians see this the same way, just that some do. [/quote']

 

That's okay - I'll qualify what I said as - this is Christianity in theory. I've yet to see this theory ever become regular practice. What occurs more often is the condemnation and punishment parts, I've rarely come across a Christian interested in forgiveness and redemption. Even when I was a Christian for 20 years, I rarely came across it.

 

Chalk it up to human error and/or hypocrasy.

[David Johnston]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

However, I think more than one of us is of the opinion that the Alignment system does a very poor job of simulating that aspect of those settings.

 

I'd also say that alignment fails to ring true because it's philosophically backwards -- "good" and "evil" are about what one does, not about what one is.

 

What one is is expressed in what one does.

[Shike019]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'm going to try this one more time,

 

As I tried to state HERE in DND Good, Evil, Law, Chaos are FORCES OF NATURE not moral concepts or personality traits. A Character's alignment is nothing more than a designation on how they relate to those forces of nature. Sure some personality traits coincide better with some alignments than others, but it is the characters relation to those forces of nature that the alignment system represents.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

What one is is expressed in what one does.

 

Which really doesn't change my point at all.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'm going to try this one more time,

 

As I tried to state HERE in DND Good, Evil, Law, Chaos are FORCES OF NATURE not moral concepts or personality traits. A Character's alignment is nothing more than a designation on how they relate to those forces of nature. Sure some personality traits coincide better with some alignments than others, but it is the characters relation to those forces of nature that the alignment system represents.

 

Meh. That's exactly why I don't like alignment -- the idea that good and evil are forces of nature instead of the result of human (broad sense) actions.

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

It's the fantasy version of Dogs in the Vineyard.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

It's the fantasy version of Dogs in the Vineyard.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_the_Vineyard

 

Interesting.

 

The last line is BS, though:

 

Since conflicts can cover theological debates as well as simple combat, players can find that the outcome of a conflict is that their character's opinion on a topic has changed. This can be difficult to accept for inexperienced players and for those who prefer a more Gamist approach.

 

Yeah, a real roleplayer would never object to having dice alter his character's outlook. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_the_Vineyard

 

Interesting.

 

The last line is BS, though:

 

 

 

Yeah, a real roleplayer would never object to having dice alter his character's outlook. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Is that really any different than say a Vampire losing Humanity because he botched a Morality Roll?

 

Dogs in the Vineyard is not the only game that has random forced character personality dynamism.

 

TB

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Such as alignment change that modifies a characters class, for example

Or magical items that change personality.

Or cyberpsychosis form too much cyberwear in Cyberpunk.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

I'm ambivalent towards it in other systems as well.

 

What irked me about the line from the Wiki was the implication that anyone who didn't like it was a gamist or a green roleplayer.

[Curufea]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Sometimes the objectivity of a wikipedia should be more questioned than it is by the folk that police it.

[Lightning91]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

Well, since everyone is taking turns beating on ye ol' alignment system, I see no reason I shouldn't get in a few shots.

 

The biggest problem I had with the good/neutral/evil lawful/neutral/chaotic alignment system was that so many of the people I gamed with treated it as all or nothing. This prevents many character concepts with inconsistent morality.

 

For example:

 

• A brave medieval sheriff, good father, charitable individual who would gladly sacrifice his monetary resources as well as his own safety for his community.... but he is a slave owner and trader. (Generally good character with evil flaw)
   
  
• The cruel warlord who rapes and pillages as he crosses the continent, but would gladly lay down his life for the men who serve with him. (Evil character with good attribute)
   
  
• An anarchist trying to inspire the rabble to rebel against an oppressive government, although he will not take orders from any authority…. Yet he is meticulous in his documentation and maintaining his finances. (Chaotic character with some lawful traits).
   
  
• Sheriff who is adamant about taking orders from those above him, and having those under him follow his own, in order to strictly enforce the king’s laws, but who enjoys regular drunken benders. (Lawful individual with occasional forays into anarchy)
  

 

The problem with the alignments is that they have to be subjectively judged, which inevitably leads to arguments. Hero’s system of disadvantages is at least easier to adjudicate. Therefore you don’t hear, “You can’t gamble at the card table, your character is lawful good”, because gambling may or may not violate a “moral code” or “behaves honorably” (although cheating at gambling might).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alignment Issues

 

The problem with the alignments is that they have to be subjectively judged' date=' which inevitably leads to arguments. Hero’s system of disadvantages is at least easier to adjudicate. Therefore you don’t hear, “You can’t gamble at the card table, your character is lawful good”, because gambling may or may not violate a “moral code” or “behaves honorably” (although cheating at gambling might).[/quote']

 

See various threads discussing Code vs Killing for how easy it is to consistently judge Hero disadvantages