Firewing vs. Gravitar?

[Weldun]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

So, what you're basically saying is anyone with a AoE-radius, ranged attack is a Munchkin. At least with Gravitar, only one of these attacks can even do damage.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Eurostar:

Fiacho: RKA 1d6 AP Autofire, 3d6 DEX Drain, Darkness to Sight Group 3"

 

Durak: 70 STR

 

Feuermacher: N/A

 

Mentalla: 7d6 Ego Attack, 14d6 Mental Illusions, 14d6 Mind Control, 3d6 Ego Drain

 

Scorpia: 4d6 RKA NND Does BODY, 1 1/2d6 HKA (w/Str) AP + 5d6 Stun Drain

 

Ultrasonique: 9d6 Energy Blast AP, 15d6 Hearing Flash

 

Gravitar won in essentially ONE PHASE against them. She doesn't need much to her defenses when she can do what, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, and probably Takofanes can't do: Defeat Eurostar in one attack. Yes, she's a munchkin build. If she had those additional defenses, she'd be the "ultimate munchkin" you implied I stated.

 

Of course she won. She's facing a team considerably weaker than she is, and a team with notable weaknesses of its own, namely, insufficient movement ability.

 

Try throwing her at the Crowns of Krim, a significantly more powerful team, and see what happens. Hint: it sucks to be Gravitar.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Quite frankly' date=' if she just stood still behind her Force Wall while this happened, that's piss poor playing.[/quote']

 

Awesome constructive style feedback, K!

 

That's the kind of a response a newbie would do. (I know this as I did it quite often when I was first new to the game, and I've witnessed other newbies do it as well.) She should have had at least one of two responses: Fly away 120" or use that 50 STR TK to either hold people aloft in the air or pin them to the ground. Then she could recover or deal with the few that could break that 50 STR hold.

 

I DID mention she was flashed, right? Flying around with a 120" velocity in the middle of downtown when you cant see the 50+ story skyscraper directly in front of you doesn't exactly strike me as a "veteran maneuver."

 

Also, after her initial attack (which was to pin everyone down with the AoE TK, which she had to break off once half the team broke out so that she could deal with them) the heroes did a pretty good job of spreading out, making it practically impossible for her to target more than 1-2 of them at a time... even if she could have seen them. Plus, the flash was a 4d6 Sight/ Hearing group "flashbang" style attack. The most she was ever flashed for was 4 segments at a time, so it's not like she was barriered up for whole turns at a time.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Technically speaking, she shouldn't really have to break off the AoE gravity attack. OTOH, yeah, once the opposition is spread out, that attack loses efficacy.

 

Which is rule number one for fighting Gravitar: spread out. Absent a very good reason, no two combatants should be any nearer to each other than 11". If this cripples your fighting ability, then you really shouldn't be fighting Gravitar in the open.

 

Also, having Gravitar fly at full speed isn't that bad response to being blinded, as her defense is good enough that most things she'd likely fly into wouldn't hurt her. Definitely only appropriate for some portrayals and game styles, though, as doing this could easily knock down a building. . .

 

( my personal pick for "response to being blinded" is to fly straight upward. Unless she's been totally knocked around first, or had her orientation sense Flashed, she can still feel up. This can be comboed with turning on the force wall and the area gravity, too )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

I was about to post about some other anti-Gravitar tactics, but really, there is no need for anything special, other than spreading out. Hit her with stuff other than basic PD/ED attacks, or with big attacks, coordinate your attacks to try and achieve a Stun, and just generally exploit the fact that she only has a 6 speed and no damage reduction. If you can keep her two area attacks from completely disabling your team, your halfway to beating her.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

So' date=' what you're basically saying is anyone with a AoE-radius, ranged attack is a Munchkin. At least with Gravitar, only one of these attacks can even do damage.[/quote']Did I say that?

[cynical sarcasm]Wow, what wonderful insight you have. When someone posts a point you don't like, put words into their mouth. Well done, Weldun. Well done indeed.[/cynical sarcasm]

 

If you go back and actually read what I wrote, you won't find that any where.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Of course she won. She's facing a team considerably weaker than she is' date=' and a team with notable weaknesses of its own, namely, insufficient movement ability.[/quote']Dr. Destroyer would eventually beat them. Takofanes would eventually beat them. I think you're missing the point: She won in one phase.

 

Try throwing her at the Crowns of Krim' date=' a significantly more powerful team, and see what happens. Hint: it sucks to be Gravitar.[/quote']Possibly. Hopefully. However, only Temblor has a 50 STR, the rest of the Crowns are weaker, so Temblor *might* have a chance against her AoE TK. Dark Seraph might depending on whether her TK affects his desolid. Otherwise, if they don't take her out in the first phases of combat, they won't.

 

This is how I see the creation process for Gravitar:

A: Let's make a new master villain homage!

B: Cool! Who should we copy?

A: I was thinking Magneto, but let's make the character a female!

B: Cool! Let's do a write-up.

Write-up done.

A: Hmm, the background could use some work. What we need to do is to give her some validity. Who's the toughest 4E team around?

B: Eurostar, but their 5E is a much weaker version.

A: I'm sure no one will notice. OK, let's run the fight.

Combat ran.

B: Wow! Eurostar Euro-trashed her!

A: OK, let's boost her defenses and we need to add another power to her to make up for this defeat.

B: I know, give her an AoE TK, but make it huge!

A: Awesome! Everyone will respect her now as a legitimate master villain. Let's work on that background when we get the chance.

Background forgotten.

 

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Awesome constructive style feedback' date=' K[irby']!

Take it with a grain of salt. Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance.

 

 

I DID mention she was flashed' date=' right? Flying around with a 120" velocity in the middle of downtown when you cant see the 50+ story skyscraper directly in front of you doesn't exactly strike me as a "veteran maneuver."[/quote']You did mentioned she was flashed, and that's about it, aside from the "protective cocoon" recoveries she took. You didn't mention anything else. Even if she was downtown, why didn't she fly straight up? Was there a 50+ story skyscraper above her? If she was using the AoE, did it not affect any of the buildings or civilians in a 22" diameter? (If it did, why weren't the PCs helping the civilians or trying to prevent building collapse?)

 

One can only respond with what is provided. I can't read your mind and say "Oh, of course she used that tactic and the PCs did this and that."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

All of the Crowns of Krim have flight save one. They can use that to buff their escape attempts.

 

And yes, desolid would most definitely let Dark Seraph escape the thing freely.

 

Lastly, re: beating Eurostar in one phase- so? Why is Eurostar this magic benchmark? Pit her against the Ultimates ( who actually have decent movement ), and she'd take alot longer time to down them. And in turn, Dr Destroyer or Takofanes could both take *her* down in a single phase ( and probably would ).

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Which is rule number one for fighting Gravitar: spread out. Absent a very good reason' date=' no two combatants should be any nearer to each other than 11". If this cripples your fighting ability, then you really shouldn't be fighting Gravitar in the open.[/quote']The problem with Gravitar is that the 11" is the radius, meaning it has a 22" diameter, so you have to be further than 11". My impression from reading Gravitar's write-up is that she doesn't get attacked, but goes out attacking others. One won't have much of a choice where to fight her. I seriously doubt she'll be holed up in a dance club attacking PCs.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

 

Lastly, re: beating Eurostar in one phase- so? Why is Eurostar this magic benchmark?

 

Well, because in 4th edition they were pretty much the indisputable benchmark in terms of villian teams. In 5th edition, not so much. It makes me sad. They used to be bad to the bone. I think people remember their 4th edition reputation more than their 5th edition reality. Gravitar probably would have eaten it against the 4th edition team - but that's a different thread.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Lastly' date=' re: beating Eurostar in one phase- so? Why is Eurostar this magic benchmark?[/quote']In 4th Ed they were. They had 8 members instead of six and were more of a threat (one could say a terror). In 5th Ed, they're just another team to beat.

• Fiacho: Now, 25 Dex, 5 Spd, a few powers, martial arts; Then 33 Dex, 6, Spd, FW 12- w/10d6 Jab
  
• Durak: Has gained 2 Ego, but *lost*: 5 PD, 5 Stun, 5 pts lack of weakness, full life support (overall, lost 23 character points)
  
• Feuermacher - Repalced White Flame - Comparing FM to WF would take too long, but FM has 492 pts, WF had 600
  
• Mentalla: has gained 2 Ego, but Ego attack and Ego drain lost 1d6; Mental Illusions, Mind Control and Telepathy all lost 2d6; lost 2 PD; had +4 w/Ego attacks, now has +3 and +2
  
• Scorpia: Replaced Pantera Scorpia 24 Dex, 5 Spd, four killing attacks ranging from 1d6 to 4d6, Stealth 14-; Pantera 35 Dex, 7 Spd, 4d6 KHA (w/Str) w/FW for it at 14-, Stealth 16-, +8 Telescopic vision
  
• Ultrasonique (FKA Le Sone), lost 3 Dex, 10 Int, 2 Com , 1 Spd and 5 Stun. (Though, his End Res has increased by 100 End & 12 Rec.) PD/ED was 20/25, now it's 18/18
  
• MEMBERS LOST:
  
• Bora - (wind powers) 30 Dex, 7 Spd, 40" flight, 40 Str TK AoE 6" Radius (used as reserves and to fly teammates out)
  
• The Whip (probably the weakest on the team) 30 Str, 33 Dex, 7 Spd, Missile deflection, AP on whip: 12d6 & 8d6 attacks
  

 

 

Pit her against the Ultimates ( who actually have decent movement )' date=' and she'd take alot longer time to down them.[/quote']

Binder 20 Dex, 5 Spd, 6/12 Run, 18/36 Flight

Blackstar 18 Dex, 4 Spd 6/12 Run (By description, his desolid wouldn't work against Gravitar)*

Clyclone 25 Dex, 6 Spd, 6/12 Run, 24/96 Flight

Radium 23 Dex, 5 Spd, 6/12 Run

Slick 28 Dex, 7 Spd 32/64 Run

Thunderbolt I 23 Dex, 5 Spd, 6/12 Run, 20/40 Teleport

*Which means Dark Seraphs desolid would work, but he can't attack her while desolid, except for his Mind Control. He'd have to fly away a distance and then attack.

 

I can see Slick and Thunderbolt escaping from Gravitar's AoE TK, but Slick couldn't harm her and Thunderbolt wouldn't be powerful enough. Cyclone *might* be able to make it out of the AoE with some good rolls, though.

 

And in turn' date=' Dr Destroyer or Takofanes could both take *her* down in a single phase ( and probably would ).[/quote']Hmm... let's see, Dr. D's Primary Weapon array 30d6 would do an average of 105 Stun (Yikes!), after defenses that's 51 (Con Stunned, but not out), If he used his 5d6 RKA, that would do 17.5 Body on average (not enough to make her bleed) and 52 Stun, which wouldn't affect her. If he used his 16d6, it would do on average 56 Stun, which only 2 would get past. She'd still have 7 Stun on average remaining, so it'd take Dr. D two phases. Assuming Dr. D initiated the attack instead of being attacked, his VPP might be able to assist to take her out in 1 phase, but he still couldn't defeat the watered-down Eurostar in one phase.

 

Now, to Takofanes (or Taco Fanny, as I like to call him) He could either start with his Hellfire Blast I (16d6) which on average wouldn't affect her, or 8d6 Ego attack, which would do 28 Stun on Average. He'd have to rely upon his VPP. Given his listed spells, his two best chances would be the 20d6 mind control (70 on average, which beats her Ego by 45, 25 *if* you apply her Enraged Disad, but not likely), OR his 10d6 RKA which would do 35 Body on Average (doing 5 to her) and 105 Stun, which would again drop her 51 stun to leave her 9. So, while both of these guys could take her in 2 phases, they couldn't take Eurostar in 1, which is what I posted.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Hmm... let's see, Dr. D's Primary Weapon array 30d6 would do an average of 105 Stun (Yikes!), after defenses that's 51 (Con Stunned, but not out), If he used his 5d6 RKA...

 

We interupt this program to inform you that Dr. Destroyer's KA is (appaerently) 10d6 in 5th Edition.

 

I gasp and return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

We interupt this program to inform you that Dr. Destroyer's KA is (appaerently) 10d6 in 5th Edition.

 

I gasp and return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Yes, I see I overlooked that (the dwindling dice on his attacks may have glossed my eyes over the RKA part), but the average Stun would be the same. Still, that 10d6 RKA is enough to vaporize the bricks I would be dropping in my tights.

 

PS: Though the 5d6 RKA I put in the post was from his secondary power slot. So he has a 10d6 and 5d6 RKA.

[Vestnik]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Firewing is a Firelord homage. Gravitar is a Magneto homage.

Magneto has beaten Spiderman, while Spiderman has beaten Firelord.

Therefore, Gravitar wins.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Take it with a grain of salt. Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance.

 

Nice aliteration!

 

You did mentioned she was flashed, and that's about it, aside from the "protective cocoon" recoveries she took. You didn't mention anything else. Even if she was downtown, why didn't she fly straight up? Was there a 50+ story skyscraper above her? If she was using the AoE, did it not affect any of the buildings or civilians in a 22" diameter? (If it did, why weren't the PCs helping the civilians or trying to prevent building collapse?)

 

One can only respond with what is provided. I can't read your mind and say "Oh, of course she used that tactic and the PCs did this and that."

 

True, I didn't set all the stage elements on the table, and certainly don't expect anyone to read my mind. And, she did eventually escape by flying straight up for a few phases and then levelled off once the last flash wore off. But what I don't get is, had I done that the second she was flashed the first time, the fight would've lasted about 3 phases... if that. How is that any fun for the players? Plus, what's more effective in giving players the idea that this is a seriously dangerous villain? Having her run (or, in this case) fly for the hills everytime she gets hit by medium-power attack at best because she can't defend against it, or having her sit right there in the middle of everyone while the 90 STR brick hits her with everything he's got and she doesn't even flinch?

 

Additionally, 3 of the 7 heroes would've had the abillity to fly after her. Which means the others would've been stuck around the table twiddling their thumbs, which also doesn't seem like very much fun to me. I don't think trying to make the game fun for the players constitutes piss poor play or a lack of planning... all nice aliterations aside.

 

...nor do I see what any of this has to do with how she would mop the floor with Firewing.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

...nor do I see what any of this has to do with how she would mop the floor with Firewing.

 

Of course, if she did mop the floor with Firewing, you can imagine the glossy shine!

 

"It's a floor wax!"

"It's a supervillain!"

 

Sorry, I'm channeling first-season SNL.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

 

...nor do I see what any of this has to do with how she would mop the floor with Firewing.

 

And if she did, payback would be extremely brutal.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Note: I said the Ultimates would take alot longer to put down than Eurostar, not that they'd win. Mainly its because more of them have actual movement powers. Two have flight, one has high speed running, one can teleport. Also, both Blackstar and Slick can effortlessly escape her area gravity hold. Throw in either Slick or Binder landing an Entangle, and Cyclone doing lots of KB ( yes, another thing Gravitar lacks ), and it could easily turn into a very frustrating fight for Gravitar.

 

As opposed to Eurostar, who live and die based solely on whether Mentalla can roll high enough on her first attack, and then crumble up afterwards.

 

If your problem with Gravitar, Kirby, is that she beats a given team quicker than the megavillains, don't start acting surprised when someone points out she can't beat another villain team anywhere near as quickly. If the certainty of the victory is the real issue, please say so.

 

As for Eurostar being the benchmark of 4e, all I can say is a big "so?" Things don't have to remain constant between additions, and I don't even see why it would be a good thing for them to do so. Not to mention I fail to see why having the "dangerously practical and ruthless" superterrorist team *also* be the buffest straight out villain team makes any sense, from a gaming perspective. If they were as buff as the Crowns of Krim, they'd have no incentive to be terrorists, they could just pick a city and rampage.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

 

As for Eurostar being the benchmark of 4e, all I can say is a big "so?" Things don't have to remain constant between additions, and I don't even see why it would be a good thing for them to do so.

 

Which is dismissing the point. The point was, before you scoff when people mention eurostar, remember that a lot of posters here have more experience with a much more powerful eurostar than currently exists, and are speaking from that experience. That was it. Further, I think you're blowing a simple statement of regret over a fondly remembered villian team being neutered way out of proportion. It used to be you could say "we took down eurostar" and everyone would know to be duly impressed. Now they just shrug and say: "they aren't so bad." What's more, I don't recall having said anything to the extent that "nothing should change." Rather, I said, essentially, that I thought the way the changes were made were heavy handed fashion (and proposed an alternative) - and more importantly: were disregarded by some of us. The main thrust was why some people would read "Eurostar" differently than you do.

 

Not to mention I fail to see why having the "dangerously practical and ruthless" superterrorist team *also* be the buffest straight out villain team makes any sense' date=' from a gaming perspective. If they were as buff as the Crowns of Krim, they'd have no incentive to be terrorists, they could just pick a city and rampage.[/quote']

 

And yet, what you are saying doesn't jive with the reality of how they were presented in 4th edition; they did make sense, and they worked very well. That's why so many people used them, and remember them so well. With the exception of their speed scores being a too high (for my game, at least, but others have made the same comment) they worked, in their role as super-terrorists like a charm. Psychology is just as important as powers. They were scary, and a worthy challenge.

 

Also, you have to remember, 4th edition didn't really have much in the way of a consistent Universe, and Classic Enemies wasn't intended to fill that role. It was just a collection of favorites, who came from campaigns with different power levels. And, it was clear there was no uniform champions campaign out there. It was explicit about this in the intro. As such, most powerful in what universe? Most of those books were ala carte - choose your entre - in their presentation rather than a cohesive whole. And I can recall at least one poster saying they had to make them more powerful to use them (eyeballs out of sockets).

 

None of this is to say the new team doesn't have some merits - they work for a certain kind of game/scenario, but I confess I don't like the roster as well, or the fact that I simply couldn't use the 5th Edition Eurostar in my game because they used to be one of the primary menaces - and the new team simply couldn't keep up. I don't think its fair to assume people have to give up their memories, or their preferences, because their is a new edition. Nor do I think things have to be static.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Von D-man answered the meat of what I was going to state about Eurostar, so there's not much point in repeating that part.

If your problem with Gravitar' date=' Kirby, is that she beats a given team quicker than the megavillains, don't start acting surprised when someone points out she can't beat another villain team anywhere near as quickly. If the certainty of the victory is the real issue, please say so.[/quote']I've actually already stated my thoughts on Gravitar. If you can't remember them, go back and read my earlier posts. If you can't fathom what I've stated simply, there's not much to be gained from continuing this.

 

Either way, to answer the point of the thread (again), Gravitar wins.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

You have repeatedly objected to the fact that Gravitar could take down Eurostar ( in your experience ) in one phase, as being something special. When I noted that she could not do so against a superteam that is, if anything, weaker than Eurostar, your response was to focus on their relative inability to do damage to her.

 

I ask the question again, in a slightly different formulation: If your objection is her ability to take down Eurostar quickly, than acknowledge that the Ultimates can last longer than Eurostar against her. If not, then explain what your objection actually *is*.

 

Side matter: complaining about the AoE gravity powers in the context of fighting Eurostar is vaguely irrelevant, as even without the two offending constructs, she'd still wipe out Eurostar just as surely. The only difference is the number of phases of cleanup needed.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Nice aliteration!

Thanks, I learned it in the Army (along with KISS Operations: Keep It Simple Stupid). It's simply a phrase to help you remember something important.

 

Additionally' date=' 3 of the 7 heroes would've had the abillity to fly after her. Which means the others would've been stuck around the table twiddling their thumbs, which also doesn't seem like very much fun to me. I don't think trying to make the game fun for the players constitutes piss poor play or a lack of planning... all nice aliterations aside. [/quote']Making the game fun for the players is fine and dandy, but it helps to play the NPCs "in character" also. Dr. Destroyer doesn't go on reckless rampages through downtown and he wouldn't stand around if being defeated (unless he had an orbital cannon and teleportation device already in place).

 

From the bits I remember, Gravitar has either won her fights outright or they've been "inconclusive" which means she got away (and probably so HERO can keep her alive), though I think she's only been in three or four that have been mentioned in the books I have.

 

But yes, Gravitar mops the floor with Firewing (now in new pine spray!).

[Niles]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Don't confuse "munchkin" with "powerful." That would be ludicrous: causing laughter with the absurd. Menton is powerful' date=' Gravitar is both.[/quote']

 

You have this exactly backwards, Gravitar is powerful, and Menton is Munchkin.

 

If Menton wants you dead, you die; unless you have fairly high level of Hardened Resistant mental defense. Yeah that's something you ought to just assume you need.

 

Gravitar is merely built to take on groups of weaker foes without using the tired default tactic of pick a guy, hammer him into GM's option, repeat. Destroyer by contrast is built to take on huge single opponents, he wins against groups merely by virtue of power, he performs much better against powerful foes than Gravitar does. I don't like his build, it feels like a reasonable villain with all the active points arbitrarily doubled.

 

Gravitar is markedly less munchkin than 4th. Ed. Eurostar. (hello, our CVs average about 3-4 points above other villians of our point value, and we all have more speed than our concepts realy justify)

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

You have repeatedly objected to the fact that Gravitar could take down Eurostar ( in your experience ) in one phase' date=' as being something special.[/quote']It's comments like these that make me roll my eyes over and over, as well as making this my last post to you on this thread. You quite simply don't get it. (Including that you're stating it was my experience, but you should read USPD p.102 for the official history/incident.)

 

Here was my complaint, with the major emphasis bolded for a (hopefully!) clearer understanding:

Quite frankly' date=' Gravitar is a munchkin build with a lame write-up.[/b'] Her "normal" defenses are 24 PD/ 24 ED and with a 0 END Force Field she'll always be at 54/30 ®. [...] If she uses her force wall, she's then 64/40 (D/r). Talk about cheesey! Her next two munchkin powers (which I seriously doubt any GM would allow a player to have) are the Flight UAA (AoE 7" radius!) and the 50 STR TK (AoE 11" radius!). Follow this up with a 60 STR TK +40 STR TK (for 100 STR TK) that she can use as a multiple power attack and very few NPCs or PCs could survive this. Should someone start to hurt her, she has her 120" flee.

 

When I noted that she could not do so against a superteam that is' date=' if anything, weaker than Eurostar, your response was to focus on their relative inability to do damage to her.[/quote']Since you didn't pay attention, I'm going back to reiterate what I already said. First, in regards to the Crowns of Krim, I said:

Possibly. Hopefully. However' date=' only Temblor has a 50 STR, the rest of the Crowns are weaker, so Temblor *might* have a chance against her AoE TK. Dark Seraph might depending on whether her TK affects his desolid. Otherwise, if they don't take her out in the first phases of combat, they won't. [/quote']

And the standout phrase I used before in that same post:

She won in one phase.

 

Even though I put "Possibly. Hopefully," that the Crowns would win, you (apparently) weren't satisfied with that answer (or didn't understand it) and you brought up the Ultimates and said they "actually have decent movement." To which I responded with a and listed their Dex's, Speed, and movements, because I didn't see what you thought was decent compared to hers (only one has more combat than her 30").

 

I ask the question again' date=' in a slightly different formulation: If your objection is her ability to take down Eurostar quickly, than acknowledge that the Ultimates can last longer than Eurostar against her. If not, then explain what your objection actually *is*.[/quote']With me stating that two or three of the Ultimates could escape her AoE, that's a bit + on implying they'd last longer. However, her immense defenses make it difficult for her to be hurt by them.

 

Side matter: complaining about the AoE gravity powers in the context of fighting Eurostar is vaguely irrelevant' date=' as even without the two offending constructs, she'd still wipe out Eurostar just as surely. The only difference is the number of phases of cleanup needed.[/quote']I find this interesting and contradictory to a previous post you gave.

 

And as far as counterbalancing weaknesses?

 

-*No* mental defense

 

-*No* power defense

 

-*No* flash defense

 

-*No* alternate sense modes

 

-*No* lack of weaknesses

 

-*No* hardened PD/ED

 

Thats an aweful lot of defenses she doesn't have.

To which I replied with the following about Eurostar (attacks that covered those weaknesses).

Eurostar:

Fiacho: RKA 1d6 AP Autofire, 3d6 DEX Drain, Darkness to Sight Group 3"

 

Durak: 70 STR

 

Feuermacher: N/A

 

Mentalla: 7d6 Ego Attack, 14d6 Mental Illusions, 14d6 Mind Control, 3d6 Ego Drain

 

Scorpia: 4d6 RKA NND Does BODY, 1 1/2d6 HKA (w/Str) AP + 5d6 Stun Drain

 

Ultrasonique: 9d6 Energy Blast AP, 15d6 Hearing Flash

 

Gravitar won in essentially ONE PHASE against them. She doesn't need much to her defenses when she can do what, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, and probably Takofanes can't do: Defeat Eurostar in one attack. Yes, she's a munchkin build. If she had those additional defenses, she'd be the "ultimate munchkin" you implied I stated.

So, if she *didn't* have her munchkin AoE 50 STR TK of 11" radius (or if it were of a smaller radius) and she didn't have her AoE Flight UAA (7" radius), then Eurostar would kill her.

 

Now that I've gone through the entire song and dance for you "repeatedly", I'm not going to continue. If you can't understand it by now, you never will.

 

Why am I not going to continue? Because Gandalf says, "Stop!"