OddHat Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA The 2nd option makes more sense to me considering that Steve does have a law degree but I will admit that the 3rd option may in fact be the case. Both Steve's response to the recent questions on this and the text in 5thER make it clear that you can't add your extra MA DCs to your HA if you're not using a martial maneuver; if you are using a maneuver, they stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Both Steve's response to the recent questions on this and the text in 5thER make it clear that you can't add your extra MA DCs to your HA if you're not using a martial maneuver; if you are using a maneuver' date=' they stack.[/quote'] This seems like it must be right although I can clearly see where the confusion came from, I think it has probably gone away now. Well that bit has*. So, extra DCs have to be used with martial manouvrees, but when used with martial manouvres they stack with strength, HA and HKA all nice an peachy. *We still have the interesting questions about the different ways in which advantages add to martial arts and HA. So, if you have 20 STR, a 4d6 HA, a Martial Strike and 2 extra DCs you can do 12d6 damage. If the HA has armour piercing on it, the strength you use with it is considered to have AP on it too, so you could do an 8d6 AP punch with STR and HA. Can you add damage from MA to that? Well, I think you probably cannot use the advantaged HA with a martial manouvre unless the martial manouvre is bought with the same advantage or the base strength has the advantage. Moreover, because you cannot use a power without its advantages, you can't add just the HA dice (without the advantage) to increase damage. I could be wrong of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA OK, here's a table about adding damage in superheroic games. Can someone point out all the inaccuraies and errors so that I can amend it if necessary. Thankyou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioKAOS Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Both Steve's response to the recent questions on this and the text in 5thER make it clear that you can't add your extra MA DCs to your HA if you're not using a martial maneuver; if you are using a maneuver' date=' they stack.[/quote'] Done. I think we're getting stuck on the language of it. Whereas your DCs from Martial Arts do not add to HA or HKA... Your HA or HKA can be used with your Martial Arts, and they do add to your Martial Arts. From what I've found in the advantaged HA realm... The advantaged HA dice need to be calculated as DCs per 5ER, and your Martial Arts [and associated DCs] add as DCs. 5ER pg 404 for those who want to check it out. So if 1D6 of your advantaged HA turns out to cost 15pts, then it takes 3DCs [of your MA] to add 1D6. This can be totally taken advantage of, as presti pointed out, moons ago when we discussed this... in this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Currently, for ease of play, I'm ruling that an Advantaged HA or KA can't be more than doubled through any type of damage stacking, whether Martial Arts, STR, velocity, or any combination. Your 4d6 AP HA will never do more than 8d6 AP, no matter what you stack with it. The only exception is 0 END, which applies to the HA and HKA but not to STR used with it. I think this is the official rule, but official or not it's how I'm handling it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Regular STR doesn't give CV modifiers either' date=' nor does EB, so I don't really see how that's relevant to evening this out. But:[/quote'] I included the reference to CVs because martial maneuvers do affect CV modifiers on top of increasing damage in many cases (which says more about MAs and whether they are balanced than it does STR or HA). In that case' date=' it's not that big of a deal and I guess I don't really have much of a problem with it. I would have a problem with allowing +10d6 HtH Strike for only 20 points! But your practical limits on this were not clear from your earlier post. Thank you for clarifying.[/quote'] No problem - I wouldn't allow that construct either, incidentally; but I don't run supers or high fantasy (and haven't in a long time). Incidentally, here is a character made with the construct. (I admit the thread is old and I am waaaaaaaaaay behind in updating it). Not quibbling' date=' just clarifying. You said, "HtH combat effects only," when you meant, "HtH combat effects, other than Killing Attacks, NNDs, (and presumably AVLDs, etc.) only." Not a problem, not an argument, just a clarification.[/quote'] Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Done. I think we're getting stuck on the language of it. Whereas your DCs from Martial Arts do not add to HA or HKA... Your HA or HKA can be used with your Martial Arts, and they do add to your Martial Arts. From what I've found in the advantaged HA realm... The advantaged HA dice need to be calculated as DCs per 5ER, and your Martial Arts [and associated DCs] add as DCs. 5ER pg 404 for those who want to check it out. So if 1D6 of your advantaged HA turns out to cost 15pts, then it takes 3DCs [of your MA] to add 1D6. This can be totally taken advantage of, as presti pointed out, moons ago when we discussed this... in this thread I think the problem arises from the phrasing in the book under HA: if it had not mentioned MA extra DCs I don' think for a moment that anyone would have imagined you could use them with HA when it is used on its own any more than anyone would think that you yould use them with strength 'on its own' Not, of course that you would, even if you could - you would always use them with the MA manouvre they were bought for. If any clarification is needed (and it isn't) it should be under MA extra DCs pointing out that they can only be used when martial arts manouvres are used as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA I have a question. I understand that you can MPA martial arts attacks. If you have extra MA DCs can they apply to BOTH attacks or only one or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA I have a question. I understand that you can MPA martial arts attacks. If you have extra MA DCs can they apply to BOTH attacks or only one or something else? Both. However, the MPA maneuvers have to be reasonably clearly distinguished in the opinion of the GM. You're well within your rights to say that a combination of Strike + Disarm is acceptable but Strike + Strike is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Both. However' date=' the MPA maneuvers have to be reasonably clearly distinguished in the opinion of the GM. You're well within your rights to say that a combination of Strike + Disarm is acceptable but Strike + Strike is not.[/quote'] So a strike + throw would probably be alright and allow you to get double value from your MA DCs? that does not sound right.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA ...and for that matter you are using your strength twice. I don't like the feel of that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA So a strike + throw would probably be alright and allow you to get double value from your MA DCs? that does not sound right.... Think Base, not Maneuver. "Throw" actually does damage using the Base of Strike. A Martial Punch + Throw Combo is actually a Strike + Strike from the POV of what's actually doing the damage. A GM can allow it, but it can be argued just as well that the two maneuvers are using the same Base and therefore can't be MPAed. Of course, we know that with Sweep and Rapid Fire it is possible to use the same power multiple times in a single phase to do damage. A "Sweep" containing both Martial Throw and Martial Strike might be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Think Base, not Maneuver. "Throw" actually does damage using the Base of Strike. A Martial Punch + Throw Combo is actually a Strike + Strike from the POV of what's actually doing the damage. A GM can allow it, but it can be argued just as well that the two maneuvers are using the same Base and therefore can't be MPAed. Of course, we know that with Sweep and Rapid Fire it is possible to use the same power multiple times in a single phase to do damage. A "Sweep" containing both Martial Throw and Martial Strike might be fair. Well if you can't do two damaging MA manouvres in an MPA I don't have a problem with it. So that's all right then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Well if you can't do two damaging MA manouvres in an MPA I don't have a problem with it. So that's all right then. Well, sorta kinda. It's labled as GM Discretion, and there's nothing stopping you from stacking say a Martial Flash, Killing Strike and NND and calling it "Stooge Fu". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Of course there may be a very good reason for it I am just not seeing. Anyone? Yes, there is a reason. You see, in 4th Edition, there was this wacked out issue with the Linked Limitation. Nasty things happened. You saved points if you wanted to attack someone with two Powers at the same time. Totally insane. Then 5th Edition comes along and invents Multiple Power Attacks and defines Linked to the point most laywers can't find a loophole and still make it understandable by allmost all players. So we had to thrash something else while making it appear to make sense. Thrash it so good that it's thrown completely out of balance to the point that no matter what you do with it, it can't possibly be abusive, unless you actually buy it. We've done that with Hand Attack. Hell, it was either that screw with Transform again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Yes, there is a reason. You see, in 4th Edition, there was this wacked out issue with the Linked Limitation. Nasty things happened. You saved points if you wanted to attack someone with two Powers at the same time. Totally insane. Then 5th Edition comes along and invents Multiple Power Attacks and defines Linked to the point most laywers can't find a loophole and still make it understandable by allmost all players. So we had to thrash something else while making it appear to make sense. Thrash it so good that it's thrown completely out of balance to the point that no matter what you do with it, it can't possibly be abusive, unless you actually buy it. We've done that with Hand Attack. Hell, it was either that screw with Transform again. You could almost get cynical, couldn't you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Hmmm... I don't think I've ever noticed the whole MA MPA thing before. (I don't play martial artists very often.) It strikes (npi) me as odd that you can MPA a Disarm and a Strike, but you can't buy a custom maneuver that includes both bases. Can you MPA a Strike and a Block? A Takeaway and a Grab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Re: HA versus MA Hmmm... I don't think I've ever noticed the whole MA MPA thing before. (I don't play martial artists very often.) It strikes (npi) me as odd that you can MPA a Disarm and a Strike' date=' but you can't buy a custom maneuver that includes both bases. Can you MPA a Strike and a Block? A Takeaway and a Grab?[/quote'] You can't abort to a Block+Strike MPA; You could hold an action and use that to MPA a Block and Strike. Generally, you can MPA any maneuvers the GM feels are distinct enough to justify it. Rules on this were reprinted in the Combat Handbook and can be found in 5thER under Multiple Power Attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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