HA versus MA

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I've taken to building characters with the talent "Combat Strength +X." Its built as additional Strength, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Hand To Hand Combat Effects Only (-1). I let players take it to - in fact, the first time I used it was on a character I designed for one of my players. Depending on how you want to do the costing you could modify the second lim to sit between -1/2 and -1 1/2. -1, however, feels right.

 

It has the advantage of being convenient for notation, can be tailored to avoid half-dice, doesn't require me to track CV mods, and allows the strength to be used for most hand to hand effects people want - excluding NND and KA. Those could, theoretically, be added with advtantages, or you could slap some level of variable advantage on it, but that might render it inefficient cost-wise (though still simple on the sheet - and that was the primary motivator).

 

I understand the desire to unclutter the power description. Accurate and usable dice totals pretty much demand use of the notes feature when dealing with HA's in HD. I've even asked Dan if there is any chance of this being improved and the request was referred to Steve L.

 

I am curious to know how you would impliment the use of advantages for your alternative. Would you require that the advantage be purchased to cover a character's normal STR (via naked modifier)? Or would you allow advantages purchased for this 'combat only' STR to automatically apply to an equal-or-lesser amount of normal STR as per the current HA rules?

[Rapier]

Re: HA versus MA

 

But why go into house-rule territory when it's not needed?

 

That's not a house rule, that's a campaign restriction.

 

It's the same thing as disallowing EDM.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

That's not a house rule, that's a campaign restriction.

 

It's the same thing as disallowing EDM.

 

I don't believe it's quite the same thing.

 

Hard damage limits mean different things to different people.

 

Say a GM disallows a STR + HA + MA attack because it exceeds a damage total of 12d6. What limit does he now enforce for ranged EB's in the same game? If it's also 12d6 he's just handed the EBlaster a huge advantage because he has free access to Haymaker's +4DC's where the MArtist is now maxed at 12d6 with his martial manuevers, some of which may give 4 or more extra DC's.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I've taken to building characters with the talent "Combat Strength +X." Its built as additional Strength' date=' No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Hand To Hand Combat Effects Only (-1). I let players take it to - in fact, the first time I used it was on a character I designed for one of my players. Depending on how you want to do the costing you could modify the second lim to sit between -1/2 and -1 1/2. -1, however, feels right.[/quote']

Holy Cow! That's 2 points per DC! I could have a 12d6 punch in your game for only 20 points! The energy projector's 12d6 EB costs 60 points. You've effectively made Ranged into a +2 Advantage. Does anyone play EB'ers in your game?

 

allows the strength to be used for most hand to hand effects people want - excluding NND and KA.

Well, nerve strikes and HKA's are indeed "Hand-To-Hand Combat effects," so I guess you mean for the -1 lim above to be "Hand To Hand Normal Damage Effects Only."

 

I'm with the Brit on this'n. In my games, STR costs 2 per point; HA costs 5 (no HTH lim); and extra DC's for MA cost 6. My headaches are gone in seconds!

[Lucius]

Re: HA versus MA

 

[/ranton]

 

 

Really, the only solution is to increase the cost of strength.

 

That, of course, will never happen, so I'm left gritting my teeth and insisting, against all reason, that people buy increased combat strength as HA.

 

[/rantoff]

 

Never say never.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary quotes Fritz Leiber: "Never and forever are neither for men."

[Lucius]

Re: HA versus MA

 

 

I'm with the Brit on this'n. In my games, STR costs 2 per point; HA costs 5 (no HTH lim); and extra DC's for MA cost 6. My headaches are gone in seconds!

 

And thus we go from "never happen" to "gone in seconds!"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is still trying to find Common Sense under Enhanced Senses....

[Wolfgar]

Re: HA versus MA

 

 

Moreover, it makes the focus limtiation an advantage.

 

 

The Focus Limitation already has some advantages to it.

 

Several Power Modifiers are a mixed bag, with their overall utility or lack thereof decinding whether they are Advantages or Limitations.

 

I'm going to want to reread the ruling to really grasp the logic though.

[Enforcer84]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Well, if I tried to HA MA, she'd kick my ass so I think it's a draw.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Well' date=' if I tried to HA MA, she'd kick my ass so I think it's a draw.[/quote']

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I don't believe it's quite the same thing.

 

Hard damage limits mean different things to different people.

 

Say a GM disallows a STR + HA + MA attack because it exceeds a damage total of 12d6. What limit does he now enforce for ranged EB's in the same game? If it's also 12d6 he's just handed the EBlaster a huge advantage because he has free access to Haymaker's +4DC's where the MArtist is now maxed at 12d6 with his martial manuevers, some of which may give 4 or more extra DC's.

 

A damage cap is a damage cap; if you use one at all, it should be expressed as Xd6 max under normal circumstances, Xd6 max after pushing or using a haymaker. All of that falls under campaign guidelines. The guidelines of a given campaign may favor one build over; that's part of how you simulate a given genre and setting.

[Vondy]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Holy Cow! That's 2 points per DC! I could have a 12d6 punch in your game for only 20 points! The energy projector's 12d6 EB costs 60 points. You've effectively made Ranged into a +2 Advantage. Does anyone play EB'ers in your game?

 

I run heroic games and that's where I've used it.

 

I have allowed it in my Freedom Patrol game, but that isn't properly a super-hero game, and it tends to be on the low-end of the power-scale in relation to the average Champions campaign. It sits somewhere between heroic and superheroic - and its never proved to be a problem in that game either.

 

And, yes, people played energy slingers in that game. Its probably because they were developing the concept before worrying over the mechanics and not vice versa. And, even so, A few inches of flight and an energy blast multipower will still neutralize a ground-pounder who doesn't have cover, or ranged attacks to respond with, in very short order.

 

Also, as it gives no CV modifiers, players have to buy skill levels to make up for what the MA maneuvers would otherwise give them, and I don't allow it to exceed the damage you could get with MAs. I don't normally allow additional DCs beyond the maneuvers (again, I run heroic games), so you can't buy more than +4 DC with it.

 

Its a simple matter of player maturity and GM approval.

 

Well' date=' nerve strikes and HKA's are indeed "Hand-To-Hand Combat effects," so I guess you mean for the -1 lim above to be [i']"Hand To Hand Normal Damage Effects Only."[/i]

 

I don't have an inclination to quibble semantics with you.

 

I'm with the Brit on this'n. In my games' date=' STR costs 2 per point; HA costs 5 (no HTH lim); and extra DC's for MA cost 6. My headaches are gone in seconds![/quote']

 

*shrug* - like I said, its my game. You don't have to play in it.

 

I've used it with the standard primary characteristic costs, and with all primary characteristics costing 2 points per point except DEX, which cost four, and COM, which cost 1. In that latter scheme I also charge 1 to 1 for END. Its worked fine with both, though the latter is more common in my games.

 

And, its never caused me a headache.

[Vondy]

Re: HA versus MA

 

A damage cap is a damage cap; if you use one at all' date=' it should be expressed as Xd6 max under normal circumstances, Xd6 max after pushing or using a haymaker. All of that falls under campaign guidelines. The guidelines of a given campaign may favor one build over; that's part of how you simulate a given genre and setting.[/quote']

 

I concur. I've always expressed campaign norms in absolute ranges, and not in terms of point costs. And, I agree, the constructs should match the genre, rather than the opposite.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Damage Cap

 

+30 STR at 0 END only to cause damage (6d6 damage) -2* IAF (cap) -1/2 45 Ap 13 RP

 

An essential gadget for all campaigns.

 

 

 

 

 

*Well, if we are making stuff up we might as well go hog-wild.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

*Well, if we are making stuff up we might as well go hog-wild.

 

What terminology do you prefer?

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

What terminology do you prefer?

 

I'm quite partial to quotes from the rule book.....for various resons

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

A damage cap is a damage cap; if you use one at all' date=' it should be expressed as Xd6 max under normal circumstances, Xd6 max after pushing or using a haymaker. All of that falls under campaign guidelines. The guidelines of a given campaign may favor one build over; that's part of how you simulate a given genre and setting.[/quote']

 

But here's the rub.

 

A Martial Artist is essentially using perfected-forms of Haymaker with the typical maneuver. They can't combine Martial Strike or Offensive Strike with the Haymaker maneuver. So if you differentiate between 'normal' cirumstances and 'using a haymaker' circumstances you are castrating the Martial Artist when you put martial manuevers in the 'normal' category.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

But here's the rub.

 

A Martial Artist is essentially using perfected-forms of Haymaker with the typical maneuver. They can't combine Martial Strike or Offensive Strike with the Haymaker maneuver. So if you differentiate between 'normal' cirumstances and 'using a haymaker' circumstances you are castrating the Martial Artist when you put martial manuevers in the 'normal' category.

 

You're creating a situation where the martial artist trades a modest amount of max damage within his speciality for a somewhat cheaper attack on a DC per DC basis, with the further minor compensation that he'll never have to take the down sides involved in making that haymaker, all else being equal. In actual game play, the martial artist will have all sorts of opportunities working with the GM to build a special attack comparable or superior to a haymakered offensive strike if the GM permits. What you see as "castrating" I see as trivial.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I'm quite partial to quotes from the rule book.....for various resons

 

This would be the same rule book containing the rules on STR cost you were ranting against a few posts back, right?

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

This would be the same rule book containing the rules on STR cost you were ranting against a few posts back' date=' right?[/quote']

 

That's right - the one that, despite my concerns over I am sticking with. that one. No problem criticising it in the hope of creating change (you may have noticed), it is changing it unilaterally I have the problem with.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

That's right - the one that' date=' despite my concerns over I am sticking with. that one. No problem criticising it in the hope of creating change (you may have noticed), it is changing it unilaterally I have the problem with.[/quote']

 

You see setting campaign damage limits as unilaterally changing the rules?

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

You're creating a situation where the martial artist trades a modest amount of max damage within his speciality for a somewhat cheaper attack on a DC per DC basis' date=' with the further minor compensation that he'll never have to take the down sides involved in making that haymaker, all else being equal. In actual game play, the martial artist will have all sorts of opportunities working with the GM to build a special attack comparable or superior to a haymakered offensive strike if the GM permits. What you see as "castrating" I see as trivial.[/quote']

 

I do think HyperMan has a point,and it is not just the hair.

 

A 4d6 difference in damage is pretty major in Hero as damage thresholds, as defined by defences, exist that means that if you ADD 4d6 to an attack, in all likelihood ALL of that additonal damage will get through defences if ANY of it was likely to get through before. 4d6 averages 14 points of stun, between 1/2 and 1/4 of most character's stun total, and easily enough extra damage to make stunning likely.

 

Moreover, I don't think martial arts are the cheapest way to do damage, although there is probably not a lot in it, at least if you stay book legal. If you start using limtied strength to do damage, chances are that martial arts are simply not worth it, except for special manouvres like throws and choke holds you can not usefully build otherwise.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

You're creating a situation where the martial artist trades a modest amount of max damage within his speciality for a somewhat cheaper attack on a DC per DC basis' date=' with the further minor compensation that he'll never have to take the down sides involved in making that haymaker, all else being equal. In actual game play, the martial artist will have all sorts of opportunities working with the GM to build a special attack comparable or superior to a haymakered offensive strike if the GM permits. What you see as "castrating" I see as trivial.[/quote']

 

 

So essentially, you are making a case-by-case exception to a damage cap but choose not to use the book-rule str+ha+ma+bonusDC limit. I guess you can call that a campaign restriction but it sure smells like a house rule to me.

 

Another 'tweener' issue I have with explicit damage caps. Any Brick with a decent amount of movement (15+") can exceed even a 'Haymaker bonus' cap. How do you decide what constitutes the character's 'normal' attack? Does the 60 STR brick with 3+" of superleap fit under a 12DC normal cap or not?

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I generally enforce both DC and AP limits in games I run, at least in PCs. Villains I don't really care so much about as I'm not designing my villains to win mos of the time, and the nasty with the 20d6 EB in a 12d6 EB campaign almost certainly has some exploitable weakness that just requires a little thought or a little luck.

 

Even then I will let a character off with higher AP or DC levels if it feels right. Not that it does, very often

 

HyperMan makes another good point I feel about the effect of movement on damage - even if The Brick can only plod about at 6", The Hawk can probably pick him up and substantially increase his available velocity. Enforcing limits can be a very fluid concept.

 

You are not trying to enforce limits for the sake of it though (at least I hope not) but to maintain an enjoyable game for all and if you accomplish that, well your job is done whether you do it by laying down the law or with a more permissive approach. Limits are less necessary for experienced GMs who know the Hero system, but even for the most experienced of GMs they are still a useful base line.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I do think HyperMan has a point,and it is not just the hair.

 

A 4d6 difference in damage is pretty major in Hero as damage thresholds, as defined by defences, exist that means that if you ADD 4d6 to an attack, in all likelihood ALL of that additonal damage will get through defences if ANY of it was likely to get through before. 4d6 averages 14 points of stun, between 1/2 and 1/4 of most character's stun total, and easily enough extra damage to make stunning likely.

 

If you allow the EBer to use a haymakered EB to hit a campaign "Haymakered" damage cap of 16d6, you can always choose to allow the MA to use a custom build to hit 16d6 in similar circumstances. Or you can rule that the advantages he gets from buying his attack as Martial Arts (slightly cheaper on a DC per DC basis than a straight EB build all else being equal, the MA MPA rules) evens out. The diference still looks trivial in play to me.

 

Moreover, I don't think martial arts are the cheapest way to do damage, although there is probably not a lot in it, at least if you stay book legal.

 

The're fairly close, especially with MPA rules. That said, someone can always crunch up something cheaper (1 point to destroy the multiverse).

 

If you start using limtied strength to do damage, chances are that martial arts are simply not worth it, except for special manouvres like throws and choke holds you can not usefully build otherwise.

 

Power Armor is everywhere in HERO. The limited STR cat is well and truly out of the bag.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

So essentially' date=' you are making a case-by-case exception to a damage cap but choose not to use the book-rule str+ha+ma+bonusDC limit. I guess you can call that a campaign restriction but it sure smells like a house rule to me. [/quote']

 

Nope, I look at everything on a case by case basis; it's the only way to make things balance in play using HERO.

 

Another 'tweener' issue I have with explicit damage caps. Any Brick with a decent amount of movement (15+") can exceed even a 'Haymaker bonus' cap. How do you decide what constitutes the character's 'normal' attack? Does the 60 STR brick with 3+" of superleap fit under a 12DC normal cap or not?

 

If you set a damage cap, say 12d6 under most circumstances and 16d6 in exceptional circumstances, thats it. No combination of maneuvers should be allowed to pass that 16d6 exceptional circumstances limit.