HA versus MA

[Trained Chicken]

Aside from the obvious flavor issue, is there any great advantage to buying Martial Strike and its variants over HA? I like buying Martial Arts for my martial artists, but it doesn't seem to have a ton to offer on the basic maneuvers over a simple HA.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

The best part of MA's are the effects that can't be easily purchased as powers like:

 

target fall maneuvers (trip, martial throw)

full move manuevers (full move + bonus damage) better than move-by/through

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Oh my goodness, the damage adding rules....

 

It all depends, really, the answer to your question lies with the final result you want.

 

HA and MA both add damage, and MA often has some effect on OCV/DCV.

 

HA costs END, MA does not, so to compare, start off with 0 END HA (15 active points per 2d6, 10 real points cf 8 active and real points per 2d6 for martial arts).

 

Both add to base strength damage.

 

On the face of it, for a 'pure normal damage attack' martial arts is the better bet. Moreover MA damage adds to killing as well as normal attacks if appropriate (albeit at a reduced rate).

 

In fact the HA only comes into its own when you have it advantaged because, wilst both martial arts and hand attack allow a form of carry over of advantages, it works differently.

 

For example if you have a 20 str character who buys a 4d6 0 END ArPi HA (for example) the base cost is 10 (for the added strength) plus 27 for the HA and it does 8d6 armour piercing and costs no end to use (even for the strength as the advantages commute to the strength for the purposes of the atatck)

 

To buy the same atatck (in effect) for martial arts you would need, say a custom MA manouvre for the purposes of this example doing 3d6 normal damage*. The minimum cost of MA is 10 points so let us assume you spent that, and 1 additional DC of damage for +4d6 damage. Total cost of MA = 14 points.

 

However you then need to advantage your strength with 0 END and AP, so the cost is 10 points (for +10 STR) and another 20 points for +1 advantages on 20 STR, or 30 points total.

 

Total cost to do 8d6 0 END ArPi with MA is 44 points.

 

Mind you it is not as straightforward as that as you will also have bought other MA manouvres in that base cost AND the advantaged strength has more general applicability.

 

Like I say, it depends what you want.

 

 

 

 

 

*The maximum damage a +0/+0 martial manouvre with no restrictions can do is 3d6 damage for 4 points

[Dust Raven]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Aside from the obvious flavor issue' date=' is there any great advantage to buying Martial Strike and its variants over HA? I like buying Martial Arts for my martial artists, but it doesn't seem to have a ton to offer on the basic maneuvers over a simple HA.[/quote']

 

I find no advantage in either one over the other. Martial Arts has some variety in effects and does some things HA can never do, and HA has some interesting damage adding quirks concerning Advantages that are very useful. There's also a difference in KB. HA tends to do more, which could be good or bad, depending on the attacker's needs.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: HA versus MA

 

If all you want to do is hit people, HAs are fine; MAs allow greater versatility. I also tend to treat HAs as a power (ie - something most normals don't have), while MAs are skills (ie - something potentially anyone can learn). That means the HA must make sense in terms of the character's sfx, while MA need only fit into the character's background.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HA versus MA

 

HA and MA add!!!

 

stick + strike = ouch.

 

get both

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

HA and MA add!!!

 

stick + strike = ouch.

 

get both

 

In most cases this is true. However any 'extra' DC's (Damage Classes) purchased for the Martial Art won't apply if the HA is NOT built into a focus.

 

for more info see this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575

[pinecone]

Re: HA versus MA

 

It really is a flavor issue...at the super level "Multi-fu" with a few slots o'butt whampin goodness really hits the spot... but good ole MA is also just fine...at the heroic level you may find that a "MA" of levels is mighty fine, MA only outshines the other methods with it's unusual effects...Throw,Escape,Shove,Grab.....these often work better than the work arounds..

[Trained Chicken]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I am pleased that my question wasn't as stupid as I thought it was! Also, Ghost-Angel and Hyper-Man answered another question I had, but hadn't yet asked. Thanks to all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

In most cases this is true. However any 'extra' DC's (Damage Classes) purchased for the Martial Art won't apply if the HA is NOT built into a focus.

 

for more info see this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575

 

If this is right, and frankly the damage adding rules are so opaque that they are almost indecipherable (the whole thing could and should be reduced to a table) we have the daft situation that having a false hand made of metal can add damage to your martial punch with increased DCs but if the metal hand is actually part of you it won't.

 

Moreover, it makes the focus limtiation an advantage.

 

I appreciate the need to limit damage and that adding damage can get out of hand, but this kind of arbitrary ruling is less than helpful. Also I appreciate that Hero is trying to serve many masters as it has to apply in both superheroic and heroic games where the rules may apply differently (unfortunately). OK then, have two tables.

 

Of course there may be a very good reason for it I am just not seeing.

 

Anyone?

[ghost-angel]

Re: HA versus MA

 

If this is right, and frankly the damage adding rules are so opaque that they are almost indecipherable (the whole thing could and should be reduced to a table) we have the daft situation that having a false hand made of metal can add damage to your martial punch with increased DCs but if the metal hand is actually part of you it won't.

 

Moreover, it makes the focus limtiation an advantage.

 

I appreciate the need to limit damage and that adding damage can get out of hand, but this kind of arbitrary ruling is less than helpful. Also I appreciate that Hero is trying to serve many masters as it has to apply in both superheroic and heroic games where the rules may apply differently (unfortunately). OK then, have two tables.

 

Of course there may be a very good reason for it I am just not seeing.

 

Anyone?

 

None from my angle. It's a weird little rule by all counts.

[Marketeer]

Re: HA versus MA

 

If this is right, and frankly the damage adding rules are so opaque that they are almost indecipherable (the whole thing could and should be reduced to a table) we have the daft situation that having a false hand made of metal can add damage to your martial punch with increased DCs but if the metal hand is actually part of you it won't.

 

Moreover, it makes the focus limtiation an advantage.

 

I appreciate the need to limit damage and that adding damage can get out of hand, but this kind of arbitrary ruling is less than helpful. Also I appreciate that Hero is trying to serve many masters as it has to apply in both superheroic and heroic games where the rules may apply differently (unfortunately). OK then, have two tables.

 

Of course there may be a very good reason for it I am just not seeing.

 

Anyone?

 

 

 

I am not 100% sure on the following, but this is how I understand the issue:

 

If MA could be combined with Advantaged HAs, you could have some very undercosted, yet book-legal, Martial Arts attacks with advantages on them.

 

Take the following example:

 

20 Str character, Armor Piercing on the STR [10 pts for Str, 10 more for AP advantage, totalling 20 pts]

+4d6 HA, Armor Piercing, 0 End [27 pts]

10 pt. Martial Arts Package including Martial Strike [10 pts]

+2 DCs for your Martial Arts package [8 pts]

 

So for 65 pts, you are getting a 12d6 AP HA that costs 2 End per swing, along with most likely 2 other small maneuvers. Even if we assume you spend 15 or so pts. on the Martial Arts package, 70 pts for a variety of moves that are all Armor Piercing, topped off by a 90 Active Point Attack, is quite nasty.

 

Then again, my Rules-Fu is not as strong as I want it to be...

 

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Avantaged HAs, whether in a focus or not, can only be raised so far.

 

We're just talking about HA + MA DCs. no other Advantages or Limitations invovled.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I am not 100% sure on the following, but this is how I understand the issue:

 

If MA could be combined with Advantaged HAs, you could have some very undercosted, yet book-legal, Martial Arts attacks with advantages on them.

 

Take the following example:

 

20 Str character, Armor Piercing on the STR [10 pts for Str, 10 more for AP advantage, totalling 20 pts]

+4d6 HA, Armor Piercing, 0 End [27 pts]

10 pt. Martial Arts Package including Martial Strike [10 pts]

+2 DCs for your Martial Arts package [8 pts]

 

So for 65 pts, you are getting a 12d6 AP HA that costs 2 End per swing, along with most likely 2 other small maneuvers. Even if we assume you spend 15 or so pts. on the Martial Arts package, 70 pts for a variety of moves that are all Armor Piercing, topped off by a 90 Active Point Attack, is quite nasty.

 

Then again, my Rules-Fu is not as strong as I want it to be...

 

 

 

 

It is a bit confusing, isn't it? Even assuming that comining HA and MA were legal (and I offer no answer to THAT one).....

 

Let us work out what it would cost to do what you are suggesting with purely HA or purely MA:

 

HA:

 

6d6 HA 0 END AP 60 points, HA limitation 40 points

30 STR 20 points

 

Total cost = 60 points for a 0 END 12d6 AP punch.

 

Cool.

 

MA:

 

30 STR AP 1/2 END 42 points

Custom MA attack wiht no OCV or DCV penalty or bonus 10 points (+3d6)

4 DCs of damage for MA 16 points

 

Total cost for 12d6 AP punch costing 2 END = 68 points

 

Actually the cost is not 'cheap' if you look at it in these terms, it is about right. It is not any synergy of MA and HA that would be the problem, but the way the system costs melee damage whicj, those salty old sea dogs who have sailed these stormy seas for a while will probably tell you is all down to strength not costing enough.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

here's a clarification that might help.

 

the earlier restriction I posted only refers to 4 point 'extra' DC's. It does not restrict DC's already built into MA manuevers. The +2 DCs of a Martial Strike still add to a non-focus based HA.

 

With regard to the reasoning behind this rule. I think it is there to help prevent abusive builds. HA is described as 'limited STR'. HA's are good for building advantaged attacks. MA's are good/better for straight damage. You can combine the 2 in limited circumstances but 'extra' DC's purchased with a MA are one of the best buys in the game since they are 0 END bonus damage. Limiting their use with certain sfx as a default is not a bad thing. Otherwise Brick Trick/MA combinations can get extremely ugly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

here's a clarification that might help.

 

the earlier restriction I posted only refers to 4 point 'extra' DC's. It does not restrict DC's already built into MA manuevers. The +2 DCs of a Martial Strike still add to a non-focus based HA.

 

With regard to the reasoning behind this rule. I think it is there to help prevent abusive builds. HA is described as 'limited STR'. HA's are good for building advantaged attacks. MA's are good/better for straight damage. You can combine the 2 in limited circumstances but 'extra' DC's purchased with a MA are one of the best buys in the game since they are 0 END bonus damage. Limiting their use with certain sfx as a default is not a bad thing. Otherwise Brick Trick/MA combinations can get extremely ugly.

 

Well, yes but...

 

MA extra DC = 4 points

HA extra DC = 3 points OR 5 points with 0 END (which also makes the STR you use with it 0 END)

 

As the example I gave above hopefully shows, MA does not seem to be any more abusive, cost wise, than HA, probably less so overall. The biggest problem is the way in which advantages apply differently, not the cost IMO.

 

I also cannot see justification for treated a focussed HA differently. You have to be able to use HA with MA extra damage otherwise weapons martial arts become pretty pointless BUT I can not see any reason to prevent HA as a personal power being used with MA extra damage. By all means warn against the evils of too high a DC but this game has to make its mind up whether it trusts the players and GMs* or is going to create pretty arbitrary rules to make sure they don't go off track. By all means create rules to clarify and help in concept building, but don't create extra rules in case someone sneaks a 15DC punch into a campaign - there are already rules about maximum campaign AP and DC values which work just fine.

 

 

*and this game does that more than almost any other. This is a good thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Well, yes but...

 

MA extra DC = 4 points

HA extra DC = 3 points OR 5 points with 0 END (which also makes the STR you use with it 0 END)

 

As the example I gave above hopefully shows, MA does not seem to be any more abusive, cost wise, than HA, probably less so overall. The biggest problem is the way in which advantages apply differently, not the cost IMO.

 

I also cannot see justification for treated a focussed HA differently. You have to be able to use HA with MA extra damage otherwise weapons martial arts become pretty pointless BUT I can not see any reason to prevent HA as a personal power being used with MA extra damage. By all means warn against the evils of too high a DC but this game has to make its mind up whether it trusts the players and GMs* or is going to create pretty arbitrary rules to make sure they don't go off track. By all means create rules to clarify and help in concept building, but don't create extra rules in case someone sneaks a 15DC punch into a campaign - there are already rules about maximum campaign AP and DC values which work just fine.

 

 

*and this game does that more than almost any other. This is a good thing.

 

 

What about the typical 'Martial Art Multipower' built with HA's?

 

40 Kung-Fu Fighting: Multipower, 40-point reserve

3u HA +4d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1) (40 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

3u HA +8d6 (40 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

16 +4 HTH Damage Class(es)

4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, --, +5 DCV, Abort

 

A STR 20 character with both can do a maximum 14d6 by the rules. Without the restriction the maximum is raised to 18d6.

 

Same character can do 10d6 with a +1/2 advantage by the rules. Without the restriction the maximum is raised to 14d6.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

What about the typical 'Martial Art Multipower' built with HA's?

 

If you don't want him doing Xd6, you can always look at the build and say "no".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: HA versus MA

 

If you don't want him doing Xd6' date=' you can always look at the build and say "no".[/quote']

 

Absolutely correct.

 

But why go into house-rule territory when it's not needed?

 

The rules already forbid MPA's from 2 different power frameworks. Martial Arts are in many ways just a defacto power framework. This rule just happens to enforce the principle behind the MPA restrictions in a different way.

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

Absolutely correct.

 

But why go into house-rule territory when it's not needed?

 

Interesting question. Is setting or omitting a damage cap a house rule, or is it part of the campaign building process?

 

The rules already forbid MPA's from 2 different power frameworks. Martial Arts are in many ways just a defacto power framework. This rule just happens to enforce the principle behind the MPA restrictions in a different way.

 

That's one way to look at it. On the other hand, that argument would allow non-focussed HAs to add to MA damage so long as they were not built as part of a framework, and is further weakened by the fact that MAs already permit multiple power attacks with separate "slots" within their own psuedo-framework.

[Vondy]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I've taken to building characters with the talent "Combat Strength +X." Its built as additional Strength, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Hand To Hand Combat Effects Only (-1). I let players take it to - in fact, the first time I used it was on a character I designed for one of my players. Depending on how you want to do the costing you could modify the second lim to sit between -1/2 and -1 1/2. -1, however, feels right.

 

It has the advantage of being convenient for notation, can be tailored to avoid half-dice, doesn't require me to track CV mods, and allows the strength to be used for most hand to hand effects people want - excluding NND and KA. Those could, theoretically, be added with advtantages, or you could slap some level of variable advantage on it, but that might render it inefficient cost-wise (though still simple on the sheet - and that was the primary motivator).

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

I've taken to building characters with the talent "Combat Strength +X." Its built as additional Strength, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Hand To Hand Combat Effects Only (-1). I let players take it to - in fact, the first time I used it was on a character I designed for one of my players.

 

It has the advantage of being convenient for notation, can be tailored to avoid half-dice, doesn't require me to track CV mods, and allows the strength to be used for most hand to hand effects people want - excluding NND and KA. Those could, theoretically, be added with advtantages, or you could slap some level of variable advantage on it, but that would probably render it inefficient cost-wise (though still simple on the sheet - and that was the primary motivator).

 

I often do something similar, "Trained Strength": +X STR, NFC (-1/2), No Lifting (-1/4). Adds smothly in with martial arts and weapons. Drop the No Lifting and it works well for Strongman and Weightlifter types who can pull off amazing strength tricks but aren't quite comic-book bricks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HA versus MA

 

[/ranton]

 

You see I have objections to this, in fact to any limitied strength used for combat simply because of the existence of Hand Attack. Now the reason this is a problem area is because strength is far too cheap for the utility and in any superhero campaign it just does not make sense to buy HA at all, cost wise, but llok at it hat way and you will quickly go potty.

 

Because it is there, if your aim is to add damage in melee combat, I have to insist on using HA. Even though I really don't like it.

 

Now if HA was actually bought as limited strength it would be a lot cheaper. Say allow NFC and hand to hand damage only for a total of -1, and get rid of the silliness with advantages commuting to base strength.

 

Mind you that is then unbalancing when you compare with ranged attacks.

 

Really, the only solution is to increase the cost of strength.

 

That, of course, will never happen, so I'm left gritting my teeth and insisting, against all reason, that people buy increased combat strength as HA.

 

[/rantoff]

[Vondy]

Re: HA versus MA

 

/rant on!

 

It doesn't really matter if you like it or not. Its not your game.

 

You insist; I decline.

 

/rant off!

[OddHat]

Re: HA versus MA

 

It's a simple, legal build that does just what it says on the package, comparable in both cost and utility to well established builds such as STR purchased through a focus, and it's my campaign. I'm OK with it.