Secret IDs: In or Out?

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Without the costumes, there's really no point in running a Superhero game. You have a game of superbeings, but it's not a superhero game. Even a uniform is technically a costume.

 

 

Costumes and Secret I.D. are separate issues. The Fantastic Four have costumes but no secret I.D. Buffy Sommers, has no costume, no distinctive set of working gear, but did have a secret I.D.

[Catacomb]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The secret ID issue in Champions is one that is pretty unwieldy since the secret ID usually applies to an indaviduals personal 'rogues gallery'. Sure you can implement it to involve the team, but when you have multiple people at the table something like secret ID doesn't come into play as much because it means focusing on one player, and that's when you lose the group.

 

Historically in comic books its a nice plot device, but in the game, it just means something else that can be brought out to split up a team and what they are doing so I hardly ever use it as a plotline unless I can make it work for(against) all involved.

[Wanderer]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

In the comics' date=' those high powered Supers never get involved with drug lords or foreign nations researching nuclear weapons. [/quote']

 

This is no longer entirely true, since high-powered Avengers-like or JLA-like government super-teams in neo-Iron Age comics *do* get sent to lay waste rogue nations involved in WMD research. Check the current Ultimates and Supreme Power story cycles for the respective teams conquering a fairly recognizable Iran (and rogue nations returning the courtesy to old U.S.).

 

If you want more realism, though, don't you think Uncle Sam would hire (if not draft) powerful metahumans to serve in the "War on [insert cause of choice - 'Drugs' or 'Terror' might be good options]"? Wouldn't those other nations draft their metahumans as well? Would we not see several decide that working illegally for the Cartel is more lucrative than their legal options?

 

Exactly. This is an angle postmodern "realistic" high-powered comics are beginning to explore in some depth: the superhuman as a "person of mass destruction", the decisive factor in military and law enforcement power projection, instead of a loose cannon vigilante or anarchist criminal.

 

As it concerns the topic of the thread, traditional Secret ID become mostly obsolete for major supers, since it is assumed that given the concentration of power in these individuals, no effort is spared in bringing them under the government's control. SIDs are mostly a thing for the relatively little guns, those supers that mostly stay under the radar and play local, unworthy of major effort in rooting them out - or dedicate inhuman levels of paranoid dedication in keeping privacy. The other government supers mostly have Public I.D., but it can be assumed that government employers might well keep the civilian identity of these high-stakes agents a secret from the general public as a national security issue, and/or put their relatives and loved ones under tight protection. Naturally, such high-profile super-agents/soldiers would enjoy the same level of legal immunities that national law enforcement agents and/or special ops military enjoy in the discharge of theri duties, so that entering contracts under aliases, taking the bench under a codename, etc. would be a matter of course.

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

As it concerns the topic of the thread' date=' traditional Secret ID become mostly obsolete for major supers, since it is assumed that given the concentration of power in these individuals, no effort is spared in bringing them under the government's control.[/quote']

 

Of course this was done first in Zenith, where the government created supersoldiers told the government to stick it where the sun don't shine.

 

They didn't have Secret ID's, and, in fact, were major celebrities.

 

They also didn't fight crime.

 

 

Eventually, of course, some of them turned into Cthulhuoid demon-critters and wiped out humanity. Another became a politician, but didn't wipe out humanity.

 

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The other government supers mostly have Public I.D.' date=' but it can be assumed that government employers might well keep the civilian identity of these high-stakes agents a secret from the general public as a national security issue, and/or put their relatives and loved ones under tight protection.[/quote']That's still a Secret ID, not a Public one. Information on who the hero is and who his friends and loved ones are is not readily available to the public. I think what people are missing here is that a secret ID isn't necessarily to hide your civilian identity from your own government, unless you're actively oppose them. It doesn't matter if the govenment can crack your secret ID, it matters if your enemies can crack your secret ID. And if your playing in CU, there's even a nice sanction program that will let the government help maintain your secret ID, not blow it wide open.

 

Rhetorical Question: What is it with people and their incessant anti-governmental paranoia?

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Rhetorical Question: What is it with people and their incessant anti-governmental paranoia?

 

Well...

 

Vigilantes need to fear the authorities because they are vulnerable to arrest.

Mutants need to fear the authorities because the authorities are the ones who originally built the Sentinels etc...

The authorities are horribly vulnerable to being taken over by supervillains, aliens or insane robot duplicates.

The authorities want to draft supers, or destroy the ones they can't draft...

etc etc.

 

It's a wholly appropriate genre thing.

 

Even when particular sections of the government are trustworthy (eg Commissioner Gordon), other bits aren't. So keeping them at arms length is usually a good idea. (This is often true even in the Golden Age, by the way).

 

(There are also non-game related things too, but let's not go there...)

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Rhetorical

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Rhetorical

 

I am familiar with the term, but felt like responding seriously for my own amusement.

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

:lol:Fair enough.

 

Look. In Marvel, the US Government knows that Steve Rogers is Captain America, and yet he maintains a secret ID. The question isn't it's realism, the question is it's place in a champions game. The only effective arguement against it that has appeared has been that because most games involve a team of heroes, it tends not to come up because most storylines that could exploit it would take too much attention away from the rest of the team. My solution to this has always been to use the spotlight method. Run a few scenarios where the team as a whole is given equal time, then run a scenario with the sporlight on one specific character. It's a technique used in television and in comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

This is no longer entirely true' date=' since high-powered Avengers-like or JLA-like government super-teams in neo-Iron Age comics *do* get sent to lay waste rogue nations involved in WMD research. Check the current Ultimates and Supreme Power story cycles for the respective teams conquering a fairly recognizable Iran (and rogue nations returning the courtesy to old U.S.). [/quote']

 

Supreme Power is an excellent example of this added realism. Do any of those characters have a family member who could be threatened? The speedster does - I wonder how long she gets to survive (or, at least, how long before she's used against him). Off the top, I can't think of any other characters in that book who have any family ties.

 

And, of course, Hawkeye's family has already been killed in the Ultimates. I don't recall any of the other characters in that book having any friends or relations either, with the possible exception of Betty Ross.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

While I totally agree with many of the points here (repped by the way)... I utterly despise this psychology.

 

This is a pop culture version of the despicable concept of faith. It is saying that the "belief" in something is greater than the truth of the thing. While I agree that can be true, I despise this part of humanity... the part that requires this icon, this extra-normal force... this external object to believe in that is the basis of religion. It is not strength, but the weakest, most intellectually bankrupt aspect of humanity.

 

I have no desire to replicate or support that concept in my role playing... any more than I wish to support faith or religion in the real world. This is why I love Hero... because it rationalizes these concepts and makes us say, "Hmmm... perhaps many of these superhero schticks really are kind of silly and unacceptable when you look at them logically." Hero is a game that by its nature, requires a rational, logical deconstruction of desired play in order to facilitate play... thus it begs the question of all the illogical genre bits in the source material.

 

The secret ID is an ode to the mystique. I just don't think the mystique is something I'm keen on supporting.

I see the "hero as icon" issue in a different light. People in team leadership roles often learn that feeling obligated to set an example can help them live up to that example, when they might not otherwise have. People in the military are urged/indoctrinated to remember what they represent when they put on the uniform. Heck, probably every parent ends up experiencing this at some point, trying to be a good parent in his child's eyes.

 

I see the act of putting on a costume, of creating a "heroic identity" in a world with an established history of superheroic role-models, as being something the crime-fighter does for himself - to help bolster his resolve and to help him make hard decisions in a way that he associates with the people and choices he admires most.

 

Realism might dictate that not all crime-fighting superheroes think this way, of course, and that ignoble supers will sooner or later erode whatever magic people can get from the symbolism. But just one strong, larger than life example (say, a Superman) can inspire generations to try to live up to their best. Or does being inspired by others fall into your definition of "faith"? (Edit: I didn't mean this last question to come off as snarky, I'm genuinely unsure if I'm misinterpreting what you said, or if we're talking about two totally unrelated things)

[Catacomb]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Hey guys with all of the faith and religion bashing. The NGD forums are that way.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Look. In Marvel' date=' the US Government knows that Steve Rogers is Captain America, and yet he maintains a secret ID. The question isn't it's realism, the question is it's place in a champions game. The only effective arguement against it that has appeared has been that because most games involve a team of heroes, it tends not to come up because most storylines that could exploit it would take too much attention away from the rest of the team. My solution to this has always been to use the spotlight method. Run a few scenarios where the team as a whole is given equal time, then run a scenario with the sporlight on one specific character. It's a technique used in television and in comics.[/quote']We've used that method for well over a decade in our Champions campaign. Scenarios are often specifically designed to highlight and/or challenge a particular character. Nobody objects to this, if nothing else because everyone knows their own chance to be the character in the spotlight will come soon.

 

As an aside, I always enjoy it when a friend is having a good time. I can take my pleasure at one remove.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

This is a pop culture version of the despicable concept of faith. It is saying that the "belief" in something is greater than the truth of the thing. While I agree that can be true' date=' I despise this part of humanity... the part that requires this icon, this extra-normal force... this external object to believe in that is the basis of religion. It is not strength, but the weakest, most intellectually bankrupt aspect of humanity.[/quote']

For a minute there I thought you were channeling Archermoo or Kristopher.

 

I'm frankly astonished that anyone would consider the concept of faith as inherently "despicable." Like any other human trait it can be carried too far, but on the whole I think it's done far more good than harm to the human condition. It's not like it's necessarily even an aspect of religion; people can have faith in many things.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I see the "hero as icon" issue in a different light. People in team leadership roles often learn that feeling obligated to set an example can help them live up to that example, when they might not otherwise have. People in the military are urged/indoctrinated to remember what they represent when they put on the uniform. Heck, probably every parent ends up experiencing this at some point, trying to be a good parent in his child's eyes.

 

I see the act of putting on a costume, of creating a "heroic identity" in a world with an established history of superheroic role-models, as being something the crime-fighter does for himself - to help bolster his resolve and to help him make hard decisions in a way that he associates with the people and choices he admires most.

 

Or you could go the route of "putting on a mask provides a psychological freeing of responsibility for my actions" kind of idea. I'm more inclined to believe that is what allows the hard decisions. "I didn't let that woman died. Capt. Vengeance had to make that choice!"

 

Realism might dictate that not all crime-fighting superheroes think this way, of course, and that ignoble supers will sooner or later erode whatever magic people can get from the symbolism. But just one strong, larger than life example (say, a Superman) can inspire generations to try to live up to their best. Or does being inspired by others fall into your definition of "faith"? (Edit: I didn't mean this last question to come off as snarky, I'm genuinely unsure if I'm misinterpreting what you said, or if we're talking about two totally unrelated things)

 

I'm inspired by "beings" with relatable foibles... (people with warts and all)... who try their best and try to do the right thing through a life of examined actions. I've never understood how anyone can be inspired by a Superman... or in real life any kind of media projection of a superstar. Example: Michael Jordan never inspired me with his amazing walking on air abilities (impressed me... yes... inspired... no.) What was more inspiring was his failed attempts to play baseball, his dealing with is father, his attempts to run the Wizards, etc. Those area where we saw someone out of their depth and working hard to make it right.

 

Inspiration doesn't come from an ideal of perfection... it comes from watching the hard struggles. Inspiration is about making me feel "I can do that!" and I know I'll never be the single best basketball player in the world... but I could find myself taking a job where I could fail and look foolish, but I take the risk anyway. I honestly don't see how somone like Superman... an alien with "abilities far beyond those of mortal men" has ANY relation to me doing my best. It's not even apples and oranges... it's apples and... oh, I don't know... apples and dry erase boards. They aren't related at all.

 

Don't know if that answers you question.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

For a minute there I thought you were channeling Archermoo or Kristopher.

 

I'm frankly astonished that anyone would consider the concept of faith as inherently "despicable." Like any other human trait it can be carried too far, but on the whole I think it's done far more good than harm to the human condition. It's not like it's necessarily even an aspect of religion; people can have faith in many things.

 

I've always admired those two. (I actually have no idea what you are referring to here.)

 

Faith... to me... is what I said, intellectually corrupt. It is not just belief (which often has an experiential or rational basis) but it is belief WITHOUT BASIS... and in fact... BELIEF IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.

 

Faith is denial of reality. It is wishful thinking taken to the extreme (as you mentioned above.) It denies our greatest trait as humans, the capacity for living an examined life and struggling to understand existence... instead to give up that struggle and just accept some idyllic imagining and using that as an excuse for behaviors that should call you to accountability.

 

Relating this to supers... faith is what confidently allows supers to justify extreme violence as appropriate, while preaching that extreme violence by others is bad. I'm totally comfortable with the rational superbeing who realizes the possible consequences and damage of his action, but decides to do it anyway because the result is worth the price. I'm horribly uncomfortable with the classic super trope (basically the tautology) of "I'm the hero, because my actions are heroic. My actions are considered heroic because I'm a hero." THAT is the superhero tradition and expectation... of which Secret IDs as described by Balabanto is a symptom... that I find unpalatable.

 

Also... I don't think Hero as a system does ANYTHING to support the idea of PC Superhero as iconic representations. In fact, it does just the opposite. It is a reductionist system which asks players to break super PCs down into mechanical chunks without thought to intent of use. That 10d6 EB isn't "good" or "evil" it is just a 10d6 EB... and the play interpretation/use of that EB is left wholly uncircumscribed by the rules. Bascially Hero is saying nothing about the expected use of that EB or how that use is interpreted in play. It is not helping you to build a superHERO... it is designed to facilitate building a superBEING. The imaginary actions and events and world (thus the contextual meaning of the character) are beyond the scope of the system.

 

Hero is... by design... about superbeings... not superheroes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Relating this to supers... faith is what confidently allows supers to justify extreme violence as appropriate' date=' while preaching that extreme violence by others is bad. I'm totally comfortable with the rational superbeing who realizes the possible consequences and damage of his action, but decides to do it anyway because the result is worth the price. I'm horribly uncomfortable with the classic super trope (basically the tautology) of [b']"I'm the hero, because my actions are heroic. My actions are considered heroic because I'm a hero." [/b] THAT is the superhero tradition and expectation... of which Secret IDs as described by Balabanto is a symptom... that I find unpalatable.

(Boldface mine)You're quite right in thinking that would be a tautology. However, that is certainly not how we define "hero" in our campaign. The actions our characters take have to be heroic; they're not considered heroic just because the character or player says they are. A full discussion of the nature of heroism is probably beyond the scope of this thread, however. I'd be happy to engage in such a discussion in a separate thread.

 

Also... I don't think Hero as a system does ANYTHING to support the idea of PC Superhero as iconic representations. In fact, it does just the opposite. It is a reductionist system which asks players to break super PCs down into mechanical chunks without thought to intent of use. That 10d6 EB isn't "good" or "evil" it is just a 10d6 EB... and the play interpretation/use of that EB is left wholly uncircumscribed by the rules. Bascially Hero is saying nothing about the expected use of that EB or how that use is interpreted in play. It is not helping you to build a superHERO... it is designed to facilitate building a superBEING. The imaginary actions and events and world (thus the contextual meaning of the character) are beyond the scope of the system.

I think you are carrying this too far. A character sheet and the system build is not the character; it's merely a crib sheet - a mnemonic device - written in a specialized jargon which represents the character. The "real" character is what I play in my head and how that character interacts with other players' characters. Character sheets exist only as a common frame of reference. I've never built a Champions character with a "10d6 EB" in my life; my characters throw lightning or fire or magnetic bolts.

 

Hero is... by design... about superbeings... not superheroes.

That's part and parcel of Hero being a toolkit. Assigning morality or value judgments in the rules is quite properly beyond the intended scope of the system. I have my own ideas as to what constitutes a hero; suffice it to say that disemboweling each and every opponent without mercy is not part of that definition. Neither is torture or indifference to suffering. There are probably any number of Iron Age "heroes" which I would not agree are really heroes - simply "superbeings" as you stated.

[Wanderer]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

That's still a Secret ID' date=' not a Public one. Information on who the hero is and who his friends and loved ones are is [u']not[/u] readily available to the public. I think what people are missing here is that a secret ID isn't necessarily to hide your civilian identity from your own government, unless you're actively oppose them. It doesn't matter if the govenment can crack your secret ID, it matters if your enemies can crack your secret ID. And if your playing in CU, there's even a nice sanction program that will let the government help maintain your secret ID, not blow it wide open.

 

Yep, but the Secret ID of the traditional unaffiliated vigilante is something qualitatively rather different from the one of the government agent: in the first case, a lot of personal effort and resources have to be employed by the vigilante oneself to maintain it, but it is more tight, since no one else is necessarily aware of it; in the latter case, it takes much less personal effort to maintain it (in all likelihood, there are whole sub-branches of government agencies dedicated to keep it), but it's more fragile, since it may be blown anytime out of the agency being infiltrated or turned against you out of political expediency, and if you are framed, betrayed, or given orders you can't really agree with, you can be turned a fugitive by a pen-stroke. And as concerns legal immunity, again in one case it is more secure and absolute (anonymity) but more fragile (government scrutinity), whileas in the latter it is more cozy and safe (legal sanction) but more limited (orders).

 

Tentatively, I concede that maybe (but I'm undecided) advantages and drawbacks of both forms balance out, so that in game terms ther result doesn't change as it concerns hard character points. But as it concerns in-character feel, it gets so different that probably it should get different names.

 

Rhetorical Question: What is it with people and their incessant anti-governmental paranoia?

 

In four-color terms: look, another Skrull/Commie/Hydra spy ! Governments *always* end up infiltrated by supervillains, aliens, conspirators, etc.

 

In realistic terms: look, I've found an honest politician ! Also, re: the Impeachment Bait in Chief and Valerie Plame. Politicians and bureaucrats *always* eventually turn against you out of corruption or expediency.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Also' date=' re: the Impeachment Bait in Chief and Valerie Plame. Politicians and bureaucrats *always* eventually turn against you out of corruption or expediency.[/quote']Would you mind keeping the NGD-type spiteful commentary in the NGD? I come here to get away from that crap.

[Wanderer]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Would you mind keeping the NGD-type spiteful commentary in the NGD? I come here to get away from that crap.

 

Anyway, the Plame affair is an excellent RL example of the drawbacks of putting your SID in the loving care of the government

 

Or, if you prefer a fictional comics example, see: Ultimate Bruce Banner and the joys of being thrown to a capital charge kangaroo trial for political expediency.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I have had C's with Secret ID and without. I have C's now that have neither.

 

To me a Secret ID is all how you want the C to interact with the environment of the game world.

 

In Comic's today the writing is going down all the time, to have the writers decide to drop them, it has become more effort than many want to deal with.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

In Comic's today the writing is going down all the time' date=' to have the writers decide to drop them, it has become more effort than many want to deal with.[/quote']The fact that recent comic writing is on a death spiral really makes me question whether dumping Secret ID's is all that great an idea for the genre. Do we really want to emulate what most of us think is a long-growing crapfest in DC and Marvel comics; or should we maybe consider that many of us Champions gamers might actually have a much better idea of what makes a good story and character than the "professionals" that have been mucking it all up for 20 years? Might that death spiral be related to the fact that those guys wouldn't recognize a good plot and/or character if it bit them? Edgy isn't all it's cracked up to be IMHO. YMMV.

 

To put it another way, why are we copying what we agree is mostly crap?

[Balabanto]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The point I was trying to make, which Trebuchet, I think, noticed, is that the hero's actions are heroic not only because of the fact that no one knows who he is, so that he could be anyone, but ALSO...

 

Because the thing that makes a hero's actions heroic has nothing to do with the secret identity. It just makes it more socially acceptable to a wider range of people.

 

The thing that makes a hero's actions heroic is not doing the right thing, because the right thing is debatable. The thing that makes a hero's actions succeed are not only the mystery of the secret identity that gives him or her his anonymity, but also the very STRENGTH OF HIS MORAL CODE in combination with this.

 

Because the hero is anonymous, and simultaneously morally superior to the villain, he could be ANY person. It is what the hero represents both as a powerful individual and as a representation of a higher standard of social behavior that makes the secret identity necessary, to appeal to the widest range of people and lead by example to bring about a better world.

 

But the problem is, we now have "heroes" whose moral code is faulty. Heroes who kill, and feel that they are justified in being judge, jury, and executioner. These heroes are not heroic in a superheroic level game. The secret identity is merely a place for a murderer to hide behind. As a result of this societal shift (And that's really what it is) the concept of the superhero is in jeopardy. This is why Secret Identity also has to remain a disadvantage. So that those who deliberately violate the moral code of the superhero immediately acquire the disadvantage of being hunted by their fellow superheroes.

 

If you want to play a campaign of super powered law enforcement, go ahead. But that's Dark Champions and not Champions.

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

But the problem is' date=' we now have "heroes" whose moral code is faulty. Heroes who kill, and feel that they are justified in being judge, jury, and executioner. These heroes are not heroic in a superheroic level game. The secret identity is merely a place for a murderer to hide behind. As a result of this societal shift (And that's really what it is) the concept of the superhero is in jeopardy.[/quote']

 

Yes. Batman is a murdering scumbag, on a par with The Shadow.

 

You would never have seen characters like them killing people back in the 30s.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I think we're looking at Secret ID too narrowly if we're thinking of it only to protect the hero from governmental and/or villainous reprisals. As noted by Mr. Incredible in the interview at the beginning of The Incredibles, "Every superhero I know has a secret identity. Who wants the pressure of being super all the time?" The mask provides a way for the hero to have some semblance of a normal life - to interact with friends, family, co-workers, etc., in a normal way. I think anyone can recognize that, given the real-world's paparazzi virtually stalking celebrities, in a world of supers this would be just as bad for superheroes. Who wants flashbulbs going off every time they go out for a carton of milk? And why would any sane individual want to make it easy for bad guys and advertising agents to find them?

 

The Secret ID doesn't just protect the character; it helps protect his family, friends, coworkers, and the waitress at the restaurant where he gets his coffee every morning. That being the case I think any ethical character, unless he simply has no contact with ordinary humans (I certainly would never be interested in playing such a character!) would try to preserve his anonymity as much as possible. Sure, it may not be possible IRL to keep a secret like that forever, at least from those who know you best and/or the authorities. But imperfection is hardly a valid reason not to try.

 

Just how easy it would actually be for the authorities to discover the identity of a super is debatable anyway. It took the FBI 17 years to track down the identity of the Unabomber, Ted Kaszinsky, despite having a full time Unabomber task force. And even then it was only because his law-abiding brother was troubled by similarities between the Unabomber's manifesto and letters from his wacked-out brother and contacted the authorities. Unless a hero starts killing, discovering his ID is likely to have a much lower priority. A hero's loved ones who suspected the truth might well work to protect that secret even without the hero's knowledge. In any case, if we're going to suspend disbelief enough to allow people who fly and shoot energy beams, the maintaining a Secret ID doesn't really require much of a stretch.